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snowviolet
topic
04:02:35 PM Jul 3rd 2014
Is the pic of Rose and Cybil really good for this trope? From what I remember, Cybil wasn't portrayed as superior (if anything a stubborn, somewhat jerky cop at first while Rose was actually in the right) and Rose wasn't portrayed as stupid or anything just for wearing a skirt. She could've been wearing jeans and it wouldn't have made any difference in the film. Maybe a screenshot from that Pink video 'Stupid Girls' might be more accurate?

Stoogebie
topic
11:31:51 AM Jul 18th 2012
We have way too many inversions, subversions and aversions to this trope; I mean, isn't this and the poorly-demonstrated page image proof that the Audience Reaction version made more sense?
Rebochan
04:52:40 PM Mar 21st 2013
The Audience Reaction version got dumped because it largely devolved into complaining about people the trope writers didn't like as opposed to documenting legitimate phenomenons.
UltimaThule
06:06:45 AM May 20th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
But the Audience Reaction version is a legitimate phenomenon—one that's still going on, particularly in terms of feminist discussion of works. If Draco in Leather Pants is considered legitimate (since it documents examples of antagonistic or even villainous characters being idolized by fans), why not Real Women Never Wear Dresses? (If we really want to keep this trope—as flimsy as it is, as others in the discussion have noted—we could also bring back the original under one of its alternate titles, like Femininity Is Bad or something. We would just have to take steps to ensure it doesn't devolve into generic "female fans bashing female characters for no reason" bashing like before.)
Stoogebie
02:42:57 PM Aug 22nd 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
I came here through Dead Unicorn Tropes. In other words, pretty much all examples are meant to be inverted, subverted or parodied (maybe even deconstructed) as saying "See? You say Girly Girl like it's a dirty word. There's no reason to pretend to be something you're not!" In fandom, however, Girls Need Role Models, and if said role models are wearing pink, like cute things, are perhaps themselves very cute, or* occasionally have off days when fighting the bad guys and have to be rescued by a boy...well, how dare she! Case in point, I read one person who posted a comment about Bella Swan from Twilight saying that she's "too feminine to function". Problem is, other than cooking, she really lacks the character necessary to count as 'masculine' or 'feminine'. Unless of course you count being an Extreme Doormat and Shallow Love Interest as being inherently feminine.
Meself
topic
01:11:10 AM May 20th 2012
edited by Meself
We're just recording the trope, here. It happens. Between a woman in trousers and one in a dress, the odds are the trouser lady is going to be the Action Girl of the pair and the one in the dress is going to end up being a Damsel in Distress.

Hmm... this implies that all media is combat oriented, and in such a context, it's natural to assume that someone in trousers would be tougher than one in a dress. This seems to be destroying it's own argument... Of course, the trope isn't specifically about dresses, or at least many other indexes explain so.

The main problem with this trope is that it's about someone not doing something. In short, the trope itself would be "a character isn't strong if she does any stereotypically feminine things." Therefore, character who simply has no interest in doing these things shouldn't be listed as an example.

All I can say is that the odds of this soon needing to become an example-less page are quite high.
johnnye
05:09:19 AM Jun 12th 2012
The problem with this trope is it's got its logic backwards. The reason active professions wear trousers is because trousers are practical. The reason men traditionally wear trousers is that they were more likely to be in active professions. So where this trope assumes a female soldier dresses in a "masculine" way because femininity is useless, the reality is that you have to wear clothes like that to do the job effectively.

Worse, the trope implies that female cops would rather be going around in skirts and high heels, but The Man won't let them. So a trope that was originally about a Straw Feminist Audience Reaction has become mildly sexist in its own right. Yaaay.
Stoogebie
11:23:13 AM Jul 18th 2012
I don't see how this trope makes any sense now that it's been "fixed". It's a very pervasive attitude among audiences, yet supposedly portraying a female cop in pants is all over this trope (never mind it's Truth in Television; were female cops to go about in frilly dresses in order to avert this "trope", most all of us would lose our Willing Suspension of Disbelief).
WilliamSyler
11:44:36 PM Sep 14th 2012
I think the dresses are just an example of the intended focus of the article. I took it to be "Strong = Manly, and therefore Weak = Womanly." To me, it's about an audience's (or writer's) assumption that a woman can't be both feminine and tough/strong/capable, at least in comparison to a woman who is more masculine in her actions.

And as a Gender Studies major, I did find this article useful because it puts that concept into focus, and I hadn't had thoughts about this false relationship before.
Stoogebie
topic
10:13:45 AM Apr 27th 2012
Guess which of these women is the tough, competent one. Um...is it the police officer? Guess how I came to that? Because she was wearing pants? NO! Because she's a cop! This page pic isn't convincing me of anything...it almost seems to be shoehorning it like "OMG! See! Look! The one in pants is the tough one! Yeah she's a cop, but that doesn't mean she can't be in a skirt too!" Sorry if that came off really harsh, but really, what happened to the old meaning (that people are still continuing to use?)
Telcontar
moderator
10:52:46 AM Apr 27th 2012
That image was kept on the page by a recent Image Pickin' thread. It was agreed that it wasn't great, but nothing better was produced. If you have a suggestion, take it to that forum. Thanks!
Meself
01:48:11 AM May 20th 2012
That discussion has been closed by Willbyr...
RockLeeYourFace
07:38:34 PM Sep 6th 2012
I agree, this picture is pretty bad. Besides the fact that Cybil is a cop wearing a police uniform, that pictures caption wouldn't make sense even if Cybil wasn't a cop. Cybil and Rose are both considered badass and intelligent. Both women spend the bulk of the film searching for Rose's daughter and being attacked by monsters and crazed cult members, and the only advantage Cybil is ever shown to have over Rose against their opponents is her gun. And even then, Rose ultimately finds all of the clues, puts the puzzle together, confronts the Demon and saves Sharon.
WilliamSyler
11:39:42 PM Sep 14th 2012
To me, I felt the picture (while not a great example) was a good metaphor for the whole topic, and it helped me understand what the trope is about (Strong = Manly, essentially).
doomsday524
topic
06:06:53 PM Feb 24th 2012
edited by doomsday524
How come this trope went from "Fan Dumb says dresses=weak, bad" to "shows have women in dresses doing less even if they're you know, between a trained police officer and a civilian woman". I'd say the former trope was completely valid and had a big list of the excesses done attacking females for doing anything feminine. What happened to it and why was it replaced by a trope that might be it's opposite?
butterblock
04:50:22 PM Feb 26th 2012
edited by butterblock
From what I know, it was because it became nothing more than complaints about female fans hating female characters, regardless of the reason.
lu127
moderator
03:02:56 PM Mar 12th 2012
This is the TRS thread.

To summarize, it had become a huge bag of soapboxing, natter and flame wars. Now, it's treated as an in-universe thing.
doomsday524
01:31:06 PM Mar 13th 2012
edited by doomsday524
Since when did soapboxing become a bad thing here? To clarify, there's a lot of pages that soapbox (pretty inflammatorily) here, possibly including this one. Why would the old article get singled out?
lu127
moderator
07:01:01 AM Mar 14th 2012
edited by lu127
No, soapboxing is not acceptable. Most soapboxes are getting the axe. Stuff like Acceptable Nationality Targets that becomes a soapbox leaves. Base Breaker became example-less for the same reason.

Soapboxing is a bad thing. The admin himself participated in that thread.
ArcadeBelle
07:35:43 PM Mar 21st 2012
It seemed like the original RWNWD trope was "female characters being bashed specifically for being girly" to "female characters being disproportionately bashed/nitpicked in general." The latter does seem to be a legitimate issue (see here and here for starters), maybe bring back an example-less page called something like "Women Under the Microscope" just explaining the concept. It's something I've noticed myself, that certain female characters are over-analyzed every time they sneeze, especially when they're being compared against other female characters. Something to do with being caught between flat out misogyny and Girls Need Role Models.
Valiona
09:49:12 PM Mar 29th 2012
I also found that the old page worked well in analyzing typical patterns of Fan Dumb complaints. Granted, it often portrayed the complaints in a negative light, but it was difficult to treat complaints that were so petty (This character dresses like a girl! She's a sexist icon!), disproportionate (How dare this girl have a mental breakdown after her boyfriend is killed!) or completely unreasonable (It's sexist for her to step down from being an Action Girl to raise a family! Never mind how much she dislikes violence!) in any sort of positive light, similar to the Die for Our Ship or Ron the Death Eater pages (or in the opposite direction, Draco in Leather Pants). Having a page around to analyze where and how this trend manifests is important for the issue.
Stoogebie
09:51:14 AM Apr 27th 2012
edited by Stoogebie
First this, then All Anime Is Naughty Tentacles. You do realize that if there are to be such Audience Reactions as Draco in Leather Pants, there can be this trope. I see it all the time. I really think we need some changes made here.
stardust_rain
topic
10:18:15 AM Feb 22nd 2012
Does this page really need to be split by medium? The subpages are not nearly long enough for that. (Hell, the music one only has one entry.)
andr0meda
01:23:25 PM Sep 29th 2012
How is she masculine, dont feminists want women to have the right to wear trousers and short hair, and be in good shape. Hell it would be more sexist to put her in a skirt. Its sexist to say that she is masculine just because she is not wearing a dress. How is she unlike other women? Are you trying to say she is unfeminst for having power as a woman. One minute feminism is wanting women in trousers etc, next there trying to imply that women in trousers grow balls and want to be men. Feminism is destroying its self with its own sexist. The second a woman becomes in someway empowered feminists still are not happy, they then start seeing her as too much like a man. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel with this.
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