During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The best you say? Huh, might be worth a read.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Didn't we already discuss Kortan? I think someone mentioned him a long time ago but never did an EP. As for PG-rated spinoffs for R-rated films, I don't think age rating is much of a barrier to entry. As long as they're bad enough, a villain can presumably stack up even against more "mature" villains. I say effort post him if you can.
And as bad as Tachyon is, he has a buttload of issues which stops him from qualifying.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
One of the best, those novels were rather hit or miss when it came to quality and this novel had some moralizing that not everyone would like, its also bleak, not just for the Maestro and his malice, but more realistic tragedies that befall most of the characters. Maestro doesn't make a full appearance till the last third of the book, there is a lot of character setup before the main action kicks in, with Hulk having to deal with life and Glenn Talbot's nephew William Talbot who wants to avenge his uncle and kill the Hulk.
I liked this one, up there with the Sinister Six novels.
edited 3rd Sep '17 9:58:33 AM by Overlord
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I like Greg Cox's Iron Man novels. Maybe not the BEST, but if nothing else, the man had a knack for writing awesome action scenes.
BTW, is it possible that NONE of the 90s novels had Red Skull?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I think we may going off topic, PM me when you have a chance and we can discuss these novels and potenial candiates from them.
Makes me think of how I want to seek out the cartoon RoboCop series to see if it gave us any candidates that compare to the movie villains.
Anybody wants to discuss theories on Kingsman: The Golden Circle before we all see it, feel free to PM me.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Phage, Vincent, Love's rewrite, Floyd, Dukhovich, Cohaagen, Victoria, Dosleum, Fitzsimmons, Maestro, Roirr
Any thoughts on my Gihren rewrite?
I don't see how a Gihren rewrite is necessary
Didn't really like the flow of his current writeup.
Here is Flavio's tally:
: Myself, DDD, Mah Stache, Vey Melon, Reyn Time 250, Elefen Lied Fan 90, Harmonius Pussy, Overlord, Irene, Snowy 66
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
: Ambar, Tommy Fresh, nrjxll
The majority leans yes, so I have a write up. If the votes change, the write up can be nixed:
- Giallo: Flavio Volpe was born with a liver disease that caused his skin to turn yellow, leading to him being bullied as a child for his appearance. As an adult, envious of beautiful women for their looks, he became a woman hating psycho who kidnapped foreign women and tortured them to death by slowly mutilating them. He has already killed many women by the start of the film, and is introduced by kidnapping Celine and making her watch as he mutilates another women to the point of near death before leaving her still alive for the cops to find. He cuts off one of Celine's fingers when she calls him ugly, and later locks her in the trunk of his car and tells his sister Linda that if she doesn't help him get out of the city, Celine will remain hidden until she dies of thirst and hunger. He tries to shoot detective Enzo Avolfi during the climax, and just before he dies, he refuses to tell Linda where Celine is just to spite her.
edited 3rd Sep '17 2:27:58 PM by bobg
jjj
I hope it would not be too forward of me to suggest this rewrite for Deathshead from Wolfenstein The New Order, a game I have very recently beaten. If approved, I know ACW can work their magic on it:
- Wolfenstein The New Order: General Wilhelm Strausse, better known as "Deathshead", appeared in the previous two games but really made his mark here. Capturing BJ Blakowicz, Deathshead forces him to choose which of his two friends he will painfully dissect, BJ being Forced to Watch with Deathshead then leaving the survivors to burn alive. Using the fruits of his terrible experiments to give the Nazis victory and establishing a cruel dictatorship, Deathshead continues his experiments by forcing a mental asylum to give him subjects and then ordering his soldiers to murder all the remaining patients when he decides he does not need them anymore. Finally confronted by BJ, Deathshead takes his dissected friend’s brain and places it in a robot as a fully conscious slave – a fate he intends for all his dissected victims and BJ himself – and forces him to attack BJ. Fully committed to his scientific legacy and believing compassion does not befit the “Master Race”, Deathshead represented the worst of the Third Reich.
Alright, I've been debating with myself for a while with this character and while I'm not totally sure he counts, I think he's worth being proposed since Gorea from Metroid and Arem from Ys have recently been approved despite having very little characterization.
What's the work?
Prince of Persia (2008) is the 2008 Continuity Reboot of the Princeof Persia series after the Sands of Time saga. The plot is inspired by the Zoroastrianism. It also got an online comic about the origins of the Hunter and a sequel on Nintendo DS Prince of Persia: The Fallen King.
The Prince stumbles upon a princess named Elika who leads him to a temple where Ahriman the dark god is sealed. Elika's father who followed them destroys the seal liberating The Corruption and the army of corrupted monsters. The temple however is still strong enough to keep the god for a while. The Prince and Elika then make their way in the ruins of the City of Light to restore the Fertile Grounds that aliment the Temple.
Because of the mixed reception of the game (for good reasons IMO) and the Assassin's Creed series' popularity displacing Prince of Persia, Ubisoft never gave a conclusion to the story and instead released new games in the Sand Of Times Saga when the movie came out and for now the series is in limbo. If Ubisoft decides to relaunch the series, it's very likely that they're going to make another reboot.
Who is He?
Ahriman, the God of Darkness is the God of Evil and the Big Bad of the reboot and while he doesn't appear in the Fallen King -except once at the very beginning- he's behind the events of the story. Obviously based on Angra Mainyu (who has been approved here), he's the evil brother of Ormazd, an Omnicidal Maniac and the source of the malevolent Corruption that kills everything on its path. Also for some reasons, he switches between a masculine and a feminine voice.
What does he do?
Ormazd the god of Light and Ahriman the god of Darkness used to bring balance to the world and were both worshipped by humans. Unfortunately, Ahriman decided to take it all spread his own essence of envy and hatred - The Corruption - in all creation. Declaring war against the Ahura (a tribe blessed by Ormazd), he built an army of monsters who were men who sold their soul to him in exchange for a wish. After he granted them, he made mindless monsters out of them. However, his four best servants known as The Corrupted retain their personality: The Hunter, The Alchemist, the Concubine and The Warrior. Each one has their own backstory.
The story behind the corruption of the Hunter is elaborated in a free tie-in comic. The Hunter was a Prince unmatched in the art of hunting but after having faced every kind of living creatures, he became bored. Ahriman under the form of a wolf lured him into a cave and there offered him a hunt without end as well as "a world without quarter, without protection where every safe place burned away, every home in ruins". The hunter accepted without hesitation. He then left the cave as a corrupted creature that would soon hunt men. During the war, he kept prisonners in the Martyr's Tower. He'd hunt them across the City of Light and hang his "trophies" from the walls. According to Elika, his victims include women and children.
I won't elaborate much on the other Corrupted's backstories because they fall under Offscreen Villainy. I'll just briefly say that the Alchemist built machines to weaponize the corruption and conducted experiments on captives, the Concubine tortured the King of Ahura while the Warrior is Tragic Villain who was the King of a peaceful people who asked Ahriman’s help to fight an invading army then was forced to leave his subjects as he now belongs to the fallen god.
Ahriman and his forces almost annihilated the Ahura civilization but Ormazd used his remaining powers to seal all of them in the Tree of Life. A temple was later built around it and Ormazd tasked the Ahura to guard the prison. However, by the generations, the Ahura diminished and spread away. They were barely hundred when princess Elika was born and most of them left after the death of her mother.
Just before the start of the game, Elika fell to her death while checking the weakened fertile grounds. Out of despair and thinking Ahriman breaking out being inevitable, her father turned to Ahriman for the resurrection of the girl in exchange for the god's freedom.
Resurrected with magical powers, the Ahura princess meets the Prince but they fail to stop the king from destroying the Tree of Life. The monsters, the four Corrupted and The Corruption are unleashed upon the surrounding areas but the temple is still strong enough to keep their master.
Our duo successfully heals the Fertile Grounds, restores the land and defeats the Corrupted. At one point, Ahriman forcibly turns Elika's father into one of his Corrupted while tormenting him with whispers.
At the end, the Prince and Elika seal Ahriman back into the tree. Unfortunately, it costs Elika's life. Thinking that without Elika, Ahriman will inevitably return with no one to stand against him, the Prince destroys the tree and brings Elika back to life. Freed once again, Ahriman proceeds to corrupt the whole world.
In the downloadable epilogue, the Prince and an understandably upset Elika make their way out of the land through the underground palace. Ahriman sends his monsters after them including Elika's father. Near the end, he personally attempts to drown them both in the Corruption. After they escape, Elika still resentful toward the Prince leaves him and decides to find the other Ahura on her own to warn them.
In the DS sequel, Prince of Persia: The Fallen King, the Prince is sent by Elika (who now leads the Ahura against Ahriman and presumably made peace with the prince) to find the City of The New Dawn. Hoping the King is able to summon the God of Light, the Prince unfortunately arrive too late as the city already fell under Ahriman's corruption and all the inhabitant shave been turned into monsters with the exception of the mage Zal. Over the course of the game, it's revealed that the King tried to fight Ahriman with the magical seal but failed. As a result, he king was split into Zal the Magus and the titular Fallen King. The Prince and Zal successfully restore the seal and defeat the Fallen King at the cost of Zal's life. After banishing the corruption with the seal and bringing the city to its former glory, the lone hero laments that he failed his mission to summon Ormazd. The Ancestor (the spirit of the first ruler of the city) comforts the Prince promising that he will find a new ally and an "inner power" soon... one day... eventually...
Another cancellation-induced Karma Houdini. Take a sip.
Mitaging factors
Freudian Excuse? The Prince at one points snarks "I can see why Ahriman is angry, trapped for a thousand years." to which Elika replies "It is of his own making." Indeed, Ahriman was trapped for being a prick. Pass.
Offscreen villainy? Possibly the first problem. The setting is a Closed Circle in the City of Light and there are very few characters and much of Ahriman's backstory comes from Elika's exposition. But we do see the destruction caused by Ahriman both in the City of Light and the City of New Dawn, and we meet the victims corrupted by Ahriman. The process of turning a man into a corrupted monster is shown twice with the Hunter in the comic and Elika's father in the game. It's probably enough to establish a pattern. So him being a massive threat isn't an Informed Attribute at least.
Redeeming Quality? None. Elika herself says that he twists people's desire. She gives the example of the Warrior who asked him the power to save his people. Ahriman gave him that and in return made an instrument of war for himself. His resurrection of Elika isn't a Pet the Dog because it was required for him to be free and in the epilogue, he unprovokedly attacks her and the Prince.
Moral agency? His character sheet lists Made of Evil because "his physical form appears as a mass of corruption." Note that the same troper lazily replicated the same text for The Corruption and Eldritch Abomination (another potential misuse). It's true that he's the God of Darkness just as Ormazd is the God of Light but according to Elika, "they were created to bring balance to the world". The brothers weren't always at war. The Ahura worshiped them both and built towers for both of them before the betrayal. In my opinion, it looks more like the corruption is malevolent because Ahriman is evil than the other way.
Generic Doomsday Villain?
Now that's the biggest issue. Ahriman is definitely nothing to write home about in term of characterization. He's pretty much a run of the mill God of Evil who spouts cliché dialogues. So I'll have to scrap the bottom of the barrel. Yeaaahh...
In his final battle, he tries to turn the Prince and Elika to side ("I will set your father in his place. Take Your Mother. Your dreams are mine to give!") and displays arrogance when he calls Ormazd a false God.
Like I said, he's an Ungrateful Bastard. First the deal with Elika's father was for him to resurrect the girl in exchange for the King to release him. Yet after all of this is done, Ahriman forcibly turns the guy into a monster. Secondly in the epilogue, he tries to kill the Prince who also freed him.
Finally, I think there's a critical scene where he displays his manipulative side. After Elika's death, he harasses the Prince to convince him to free him and tries to appeal to his pity and turn him against Ormazd.
The Full transcription:
"What injury have I done to you that you have not done to me? The Choice is not yours. The power of this place wanes. And when I am Free. [Elika] will already have been forgotten. She burned so brightly, a shining star for Ormazd. Is he here to make such sacrifice? Or does he let his followers fall for him? I will be free. Choose life. Choose death. Fear not the night. I shall be free and where then will the light be? What candle will shine in the darkness now that she is gone? (...) She has blinded you with her light, burned her will until it became yours. Reclaim that will, reclaim your destiny. I can be your beginning or your end. You seek justice. Then banish Ormazd, free me! It is the dawn that brings the pain. The night that brings the dreams. The light burns. The darkness soothes. She is dead. But I will be free. Mine has been the imprisonment. Mine has been the pain. Offer me your soul. Offer me no resistance. The choice is not yours."
Heiniousness
This Continuity Reboot disregards the previous games and is much Lighter and Softer – seriously Warrior Within and this are night and day- but even if we have to examine the Prince of Persia franchise as a whole (including the movie) it wouldn't be an issue. Ahriman is by far the largest threat since he pretty much wants to destroy and corrupt the world.
Verdict
I'd give a weak, weak yes. If he gets downvoted I can still save the EP in the unlikely case Ubisoft make other games in this continuity.
edited 3rd Sep '17 3:25:56 PM by Silverblade2
Messenger from another dimension.
No to Ahriman. Doesn't strike me as that heinous.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
You know what? I think there's enough myself.
A weak for Ahriman.
I liked that game, by the by, and it saddens me we'll likely never see a conclusion.
EDIT: Uh, by the way, I wasn't specifically referring to you, just the OP, and I just so happened to write this post before yours was visible. I apologise if my wording came off as douchy.
edited 3rd Sep '17 3:48:39 PM by PolarPhantom
Weak Ahriman due to wanting to destroy the planet. He seems to possess just enough personality.
Ahriman. He does posses enough personality to qualify.
Eh... inclined to go with a weaker no on Ahriman. Just don't really see how he stands out much.
I'm personally in favor of at least some sort of a touch-up to Gihren... while I like some elements of the original writeup, some stuff the last sentence comes off as extraneous.
Tally for Roirr:
Me, Scraggle, Tommy Fresh, Austin DR, Overlord, ACW, MGD 107, Very Melon, 43110
edited 3rd Sep '17 5:18:29 PM by Snowy66
Caesar
'Yes' to Roirr and Ahriman. Think the latter stands out JUST enough.
As an aside...think I'm just gonna slide in and reserve House of Cards for myself, if that's quite alright with everyone. Recently caught up to it, and quite enjoying it. I'll gladly share it with others if they'd like to partner up there, so hit me up via PM if you wish and we'll chat more.
I'm gonna have one more proposal in the next day or so, then I will get all my pending write-ups up.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Weak yes to Ahriman.
Hey Ravok, do you have any opinions on the Maestro?
Caesar
Oh yes, EASY 'Yes' to the Maestro. That one seemed a unanimous Keep, so it slipped my mind. Gotta love those evil future versions of heroes.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Maestro has a couple reasons for this campaign against the present, Hulk speculates this is a revenge trip and wants to brutalize anyone who has slighted him, with Hulk worried he will torture and murder Betty, but Maestro gives a more simple motive, it would be a fun and epic adventure. Maestro has become bored as a post apocalypse dictator and wants a new challenge and thinks a genocidal crusade against modern humannity would be a blast. Maestro even looks back with fondness over his past battles in 20th century, saying they helped forged him into the man he is today.
So its a little of both, revenge against any slight no matter how big or small and just doing it for kicks. But really people in the past can no longer hurt him, he is just being an asshole, he is going out of his way to commit mass murder and genocide.
Also I thought What Savage Beast was the best of these 90s Marvel novels.
edited 3rd Sep '17 9:42:16 AM by Overlord