Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I might suggest keeping an eye on Endeavor from My Hero Academia. It's too early to say he qualifies now, but he has already demonstrated how much of a bastard he is after only being introduced in a few chapters.

Endeavor is number 2 in the hero rankings, right behind All Might. However, he didn't like being only second best. He realized that if he can't become number one, he'll have his child do it for him. He married An Ice Person just so that his son, Shoutou, could have both fire and ice powers, increasing his potential as a hero. His wife hated being used by him so much, that she poured boiling water on Shouto's face, calling his father's genes ugly. This drove Shouto to hate his father to the point that he refused to use his fire powers unless it was in an emergency out of spite. Endeavor thinks so little of Shouto, that he refers to him as "it." He has shown that he cares only for the glory that comes with being a hero and made Shouto's life a living hell just to prove that he was better than All Might.

Again, it's too early to decide, but I suggest keeping an eye out for him. A lot was revealed about Endeavor with just a few chapters.

Endeavor's an asshole, but the villains seen thus far have shown themselves willing to murder a school full of kid heroes to get a shot at killing All Might. As nasty a stage dad as Endeavor is, it was his wife who scarred Shouto as well.

I rather doubt he'll qualify unless he goes way farther

Way too early to even consider. As of right now, even his wife has done worse than him.

edited 25th Feb '15 8:50:27 PM by Camberf

Does anyone object to me giving the Ace Attorney monster page a picture of Matt Engarde (perhaps about his reveal?) and add the quote Judge: "What a heartless plan! Cruel, cold, and selfish!"? For those that don't know, The Judge says that in response to Dahlia's vengeful plan to kill Maya Fey. I think it fits the description of Ace Attorney monsters very well. Especially Engarde, Dahlia, and Kristoph.

And for those who are upset about kids show villains qualifying just think: Ace Attorney is a T rated game series (except for Dual Destinies) meaning it's a "kids game series". It has around six.

Though I'm starting to have my doubts about Quercus Alba what with him showing genuine concern for Oldbag's bad hip.

edited 26th Feb '15 12:52:39 PM by Klavice

Klaivce, nobody has expressed issues with it. You're creating a controversy from nothing.

I edited my post. Quercus meets the heinous standard, yes. But I don't remember us ever discussing his supposed Pet The dog moment.

Edit: Never mind.

edited 25th Feb '15 9:57:02 PM by Klavice

I meant the kids' show villain bit

...

edited 6th Jul '16 12:26:44 PM by ACW

I know this guy's probably a no, but did we ever discuss Florent L'Belle from Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies? Although he may not seem that heinous at first (he only went through with killing Alderman Kyuubi) he threatened Damian Tenma (the mayor of Tenma Town, and his boss) by threatening to kill his daughter saying he'd enjoy her screams. He also blackmails everyone that if they speak of what he's done, he'll kill them (because they think he's the demon Tenma Taro). And if you press him on a statement in his testimony, he reveals that he was actually going to kill Alderman Kyubi's hospitalized wife, but was stopped by the Alderman himself, who was killed instead. All just so he could take over Ninetails Vale, merge it with Tenma Town, and become mayor of Tenma Town. I think this guy does a lot more onscreen than say Redd White. Even Simon Blackquill, a convicted killer finds him disgusting. None of this is implied. He outright says most of this. If that wasn't enough, he laughs about everything.

Does he have a Freudian Excuse? Nope. None at all. And he doesn't even have an Alas, Poor Villain moment (then again, very few Ace Attorney villains have one).

edited 25th Feb '15 11:23:08 PM by Klavice

He only wants the merger so he can get his hands on the Tenma Taro (a very large piece of gold), in order to pay off his debts from advertising his beauty products that he refuses to sell.

I think Florent is a bit of a joke, to be honest.

Still, the fact that he would pull the plug on someone's hospitalized wife just because they wouldn't agree to merge their village with his town just so he could get the treasure is pretty creepy. Being in debt is not an excuse to attempt to murder (and successfully kill) people.

I don't think he's a joke at all. If anything, he's a sociopath. He has one murder and two attempted murders. That's about the rap sheet Matt Engarde had, and he's blackmailed everyone he came across from Phineas Filch to Jinxie Tenma.

edited 25th Feb '15 11:38:02 PM by Klavice

Well, no. I wasn't saying it was. I was saying that the reason he's in debt sounds pretty foolish.

It doesn't change the heinousness, but it makes it hard to take him seriously. I never got the feeling of disgust and hatred for him like I did for the likes of Matt Engarde or Manfred von Karma.

I didn't get that hatred with Kristoph either. In fact, I think Evil Is Cool in his case. Does that mean Krissy doesn't count? Not at all.

Well, I wouldn't know, I haven't played that one.

And it's just my personal feelings on it. Perhaps everyone else agrees with you and I'm the odd one out. Wouldn't be the first time.

I'm planning to submit the Reacher examples at 2:50am Central Time. Can you make your final decision on Duncan. If he is a keep, I'll submit it like this:

• Jack Reacher series:
  • The Visitor ^note Running Blind in the US: The killer turns out to be FBI Profiler Julia Lamarr, who uses her position to cover up her crimes. The killer murders at least four women (and is in the process of murdering another when stopped by Reacher) by hypnotizing them to swallow their own tongues, leaving them to suffocate slowly to death and leaving no evidence. The first victim, as well as the true target, was Lamarr’s stepsister, who was chosen to receive Julia’s father’s inheritance, despite that she was even going to share it with Lamarr. A cold-blooded Diabolical Mastermind, the killer only cares about itself, and revels in their intelligence throughout the process.
  • Worth Dying For: Jacob Ducan who runs a rural Nebraskan farmer town like a tinpot dictator straight out of Ruritania, along with his brothers Jonas and Jasper and his son Seth. They run a trucking business whose service they force upon every family in town. Anyone who refuses or disagrees with them would find themselves beaten up and their properties thrashed out by a gang of ex-college football players under the Duncan's payroll. The Duncans, who also beat their wives, use this business to smuggle children from Asia to the heartland United States for sex trafficking. All of them are pedophiles who keep any child they they take special interst in, murder them they've grown bored with them, and make a shrine and photographic memento of every corpse (there are about 60 in all, 2 or 3 every year). Even Reacher, a former MP who's seen all kinds of corpses himself, explicitly admits he regrets having taken a look at the barn where the Duncan holds those shrines.

edited 26th Feb '15 6:37:35 AM by randomtroper89

Two small things:

• Make it Jack Reacher series.
• You can copy the Duncan writeup from here.

edited 26th Feb '15 6:26:24 AM by ACW

Only Seth Duncan is married, so "...beat their wives" is inaccurate; the victims of the sex trade are not just children, but also grown women. The one from each shipment the Duncans keep is always a child, though. Nor are they intended for the "Midwestern" sex trade —- they end up all over the world; one of the higher-ups in the chain of purchasers is explicitly identified as a "Middle Eastern prince" and another one works out of Las Vegas.

How's this?

• Worth Dying For: Jacob Duncan runs a rural Nebraska farmer town like a tinpot dictator straight out of Ruritania, along with his brothers Jonas and Jasper and his son Seth (who also beats his wife). They run a trucking business whose service they force upon every family in town. Anyone who refuses or disagrees with them would find themselves beaten up and their properties ruined by a gang of ex-college football players on the Duncans’ payroll. The Duncans use this business to smuggle children and others from Asia to the heartland United States (and elsewhere) for sex trafficking. All of them are pedophiles who murder every child they've grown bored with and make a shrine and photographic memento of every corpse (there are about 60 in all, 2 or 3 every year). Even Reacher, a former MP who's seen all kinds of corpses himself, explicitly admits he regrets having taken a look at the barn where the Duncans hold these shrines.

edited 26th Feb '15 7:37:28 AM by ACW

I hereby am presenting another villain from Bollywood that I think is worthy of being named as a Complete Monster. Krrish 3 is not a great movie by any stretch of imagination, but it does have a chilling villain in its Big Bad Kaal. So, I am presenting you this effort-post and allowing you to decide from there.

Who is Kaal, anyway?

Kaal (which is the character’s full name) is a handicapped scientific genius who exhibits telekinetic powers. As the founder of Kaal Pharmaceuticals, he is responsible for creating the maanvars, a team of mutants made from mixing the serum of human and animal DNA. He seeks to find compatible bone marrow to heal his disability and gain full power to enact his plans for humanity…

What does he do? (WARNING: Spoilers for Krrish 3 ahead)

While the Big Bad of Krrish (the second film in the Krrish trilogy) Dr. Siddhant Arya held Rohit Mehra hostage in Singapore, Dr. Arya obtained some of Rohit’s DNA and sought to use it to create a doppelgänger of Rohit. When the child was born disabled, however, Dr. Arya saw the baby boy as a failed experiment and told Dr. Mathur to kill the child. However, Dr. Mathur couldn’t go through with it and instead gave the boy to an orphanage where he was adopted by a wealthy family. As the boy grew up, his wealthy adoptive father scolded him for using his powers for destruction, which one day led to the boy using his telekinesis to kill his adoptive father with a knife. That boy grew up to be our Big Bad in question: Kaal.

By the time the film begins, Kaal has established Kaal Pharmaceuticals, a company that supposedly experiments with the fusion of animal DNA to create antidotes for viruses. However, it is soon revealed that Kaal not only begins every experiment with the sole aim of changing himself, but he also uses some animal DNA to create viruses to unleash to the world before his company begins production for its antidotes. After ordering his right-hand woman Kaya to kill a defecting doctor, Kaal unveils to the audience his secret team of maanvars, or mutants that are “human in appearance but beastly in nature and strength”. While he has been unsuccessful with the finding a cure for his own disability, he nonetheless is confident in his goals of making billions from producing viruses and holding its antidotes until the virus has spread in densely populated areas. In Kaal’s own words, “the business of fear is the best business”.

Having wiped out 40% of Namibia’s population with a virus created from Kaal’s own DNA no thanks to its rapid incubation period (5 seconds to 5 minutes of contact) and its ability to spread via air and water, Kaal turns to India as his next target and orders Kaya and the maanvars to spread the virus in Mumbai. When Rohit manages to create an antidote using the DNA of his son Krishna Mehra/Krrish, Kaal has his maanvars attack and destroy the laboratory. After the attack, Kaal begins to wonder how an antidote for his virus was produced, leading to him kidnapping of Krishna Mehra’s pregnant wife Priya. Kaal sends Kaya to replace Priya and lie about miscarrying their child, but Kaya soon becomes attached to Krishna. When Krishna finds out who “Priya” really is, Kaya decides to turn on Kaal and discloses that the real Priya and her unborn child are being held hostage in Kaal’s hideout.

Kaal eventually kidnaps Rohit in Singapore, where he soon forces Rohit to tell the truth of his heritage. Kaal mockingly calls Rohit his “dad” thereafter and forces Rohit to give him the bone marrow needed to cure his disease. After his handicap is cured, Kaal wastes no time in killing his assistants with new ferrokinetic powers and transforms himself into this monstrosity◊. After the remaining maanvars are defeated by Kaya and Krrish, Kaal reunites with Kaya only for him to callously murder her for her disloyalty. With the combination of telekinesis and ferrokinetic powers, he mercilessly squashes and kills Krrish and threatens to kill his unborn child next.

He eventually reaches Mumbai, where he unveils to the public of his plans of wiping out humanity. He then makes a rather charming demand for Priya to show herself, which he states: “The one that you all pin your hopes on... the one that you depend on. Kaal has destroyed him. I have killed Krrish! (Evil Laugh) Yes, I've made Krrish a martyr. Now, it's Priya Mehra's turn... SO BRING HER TO ME!!! The longer she takes to reach me, the more I will torture you all.” After Priya shows herself along with other defiant civilians, Kaal uses his powers to tear up metal and aim the shards at the civilian crowd. However, a resurrected Krrish arises and begins the final battle against Kaal. With Krrish on the verge of dying once again, Kaal mocks Krrish for being human before making his decision to kill Krrish’s unborn child first. Just before Kaal can do so, however, Krrish delivers a well-deserved beatdown to the sick fuck before Krrish uses his father’s solar experiment to finally finish the super-villain.

Any Freudian Excuse, Redeeming Qualities, or other mitigating factors?

Kaal believes that he is the master of his own life and destiny and proves this by being an absolutely psychopathic, sadistic, and just plain batshit insane misanthrope. Kaal is a terrible boss to his own employees, going as far as choking Kaya when she questions why he is so obsessed with curing his own disability. He only gets worse once he is cured, as he kills his own colleagues and threatens to kill everyone in Mumbai. While one could argue that Kaal had a tragic beginning to his life, he nonetheless was bad news from the word go (as seen when he killed his adoptive father as a boy) and truly never cared for anyone. So… not really.

How does Kaal hold up to the standards of the setting?

Krrish 3 is a direct followup to both 2003’s Koi… Mil Gaya and 2006’s Krrish (there’s no such thing as Krrish 2… confusing I know). While Krrish 3 is the darkest of the trilogy, it nonetheless remains a family superhero movie which stays true to the franchise’s main values of acceptance, courage, family, and interest in scientific wonders.

Kaal is perhaps the franchise’s darkest villain yet. He kills 40% of Namibia’s population with a horrifying virus, holds a pregnant woman hostage, murders many characters, and seeks the total annihilation of humanity to replace them with his own maanvar creations. He also has no emotional connection to Kaya (which he proves by killing her upon his transformation) nor his biological father. Given all of the atrocities Kaal has committed and how he’s shockingly dark he is compared to the franchise’s standards, it’s safe to say he clears the heinousness standard.

edited 26th Feb '15 9:35:27 AM by sanfranman91

A resurrected Krish? Well, according to Wiki, not to much of an Ass Pull. Anyway, I'll give a .

@ Lightysnake:

RE: Herzog: Alright, keep for him then.

RE: McLeach: More than one, which is the whole issue that you've refused to acknowledge until now by demanding that other contributors not talk about it. Nobody is seriously disputing that McLeach crosses the Moral Event Horizon. It's that you conflate having no redeeming traits (i.e. being unsympathetic) and crossing that line by killing one victim with being a Complete Monster, who does such acts so frequently that it becomes pointless to identify such a moment in their character arc. You argued the exact same thing with Nurse Ratched, who knowingly caused one death, lobotimized someone, and physically tortured patients in the book. The whole basis for the notion that harming children is especially heinous is because they're innocent and can't defend themselves. Ratched was knowingly hurting mentally ill and retarded people for years and years, some of them as helpless as children, yet we ended up cutting her on re-review because she doesn't stack with the general heinous bar no matter how loathsome we may find her.

Also, for a point that definitely has never at any point been brought up: throwing knives three feet next to Cody qualifies as torture? What he's doing is far from carving him up; he's tormenting him, him not torturing him. We're not talking about Mick Taylor here (who has in fact done just that to children that we know of through the footage that the protagonist finds). McLeach is grilling him for information and has no intention of killing him at that point (if only out of pragmatism) because he needs Cody to find Marahute. Unless you're arguing that McLeach knows he's such a lousy throw that he knew he'd hit him in the arm or something. If not, it's just scare tactics, and he shows exactly how well he can aim with a knife by hitting his targets (the names on the map) exactly. I can't say that it's qualitatively more heinous than Sykes scaring the girl he kidnapped by showing how vicious his dogs are. And locking up Cody as a stand-out crime? Sure, imprisoning someone-especially a child-is bad. That doesn't mean it's not something most villains in kid-oriented works will do.

And no, being a poacher (or kicking his own pet, for that matter) who gets too much of a kick out of hurting animals isn't "a black mark against him" in the way that you imply, which betrays the very notion that I pointed out before: lowering standards for his other crimes because we can't include animal cruelty. Hell, even the write-up still notes it as part of his monstrously heinous crimes. We cannot count his cruelty towards beings that he doesn't actually know are sophonts because it's not part of the stand-out acts we use as qualifiers (murder, rape, genocide, etc.) and by itself merely makes him unsympathetic rather than unforgivably heinous. We're not asked to distinguish the good from the evil, but the evil from the absolute worst that fiction has offered. Again, no one is saying that he's not an evil asshole. It's a question of how he fits in a trope with very high standards that requires a pattern of evil acts such that he can be said to be on the other side of the Moral Event Horizon-that's the entire distinction that was drawn between those tropes way back when and the reason for them being seperate in the first place. If that distinction has changed since then and it can be evaluated on that basis, great. Let's hear it. In the end, McLeach tries to kill exactly one kid. Even Captain friggin' Hook has a bigger attempted bodycount, as he tried to drown at least two innocent little girls (Tiger Lilly and Wendy) in addition to blowing up his adolescent arch-enemy.

You've also said "Nothing new has been raised on him" as your reason for not initially engaging in Beast's and Exister's points. As soon as someone points out that yes, we actually did not consider a bunch of things and didn't look at him in detail (minimum heinousness in particular), you shift the goalposts to "Well, we voted anyway and that's final", which is a rather blatant Double Standard given your previous revival of the Scar debate when he was already voted on twice and on the "Never Again" list. That, and folks like Occasional Exister and Ambar Sonofdeshar actually did vote back then, so you're essentially telling them that s/he aren't allowed to reconsider their old vote after thinking about it some more. Regardless, whatever way this goes it might be prudent to actually add McLeach to the "Never Again" list when we're done and sure that all avenues of discussion have been exhausted.

@ bobg: Oh, I know the difference between conquering the world and destroying it. If I didn't, I'd have been the first to upvote the Annihilator. Everything points to the Horned King from The Black Cauldron being an Omnicidal Maniac with a god complex. He's a lich and Evil Overlord with a Skull for a Head. He sends out an army of skeletal warriors with explicit orders to kill everyone in their path. The Cauldron Born immediately start devouring the Horned King's living soldiers after he completes the ritual. During his Motive Rant he joys at being worshipped by the Cauldron Born before noting that once he had wanted to be seen as a god by mortal men.

Slight rewrite for Dr. Meddow to include his full name:

• The Blob (1988 remake): Dr. Christopher Meddows is a military scientist who specializes in bioweapons. He's inadvertently responsible for developing the Blob by sending the satellite and the proto-Blob sample into space, where it mutated before it fell back down on Earth. He didn't expect it to develop into a ravenous, all-consuming monster, but he is more than pleased at this development and its military potential. He cordons off the town where the Blob has started its spread so he can test its killing potential on all the inhabitants and to perform further experiments on the survivors. He's even willing to sacrifice his own men to further his goal, as he orders the sewers blocked off when two of the heroes and one of his men try to escape from the pursuing Blob.

I found another image that might work for the Monster.X Men page: Beast murdering Wolverine's loved ones in front of him◊. Can I get some input on that?

edited 26th Feb '15 8:06:41 AM by Morgenthaler

ACW: that's better. Thanks for tweaking it.

edited 26th Feb '15 8:16:05 AM by Madrugada

*sigh* This is what I don't like about this thread's format. No poll for recent proposals, no follow up if it's being discussed alongside several cases.

Once again, Gilles de Rais from Rage of Bahamut: Genesis.

edited 26th Feb '15 8:18:54 AM by AnoBakaDesu

RE: Kaal: Sounds heinous enough beyond a doubt. How do they deal with the cloning issue in this specific film, however? Is he shown to have full agency?

I'd be prepared to give a tentative yes to Kaal.

I have to agree with this. I'd also like to note that given how frequently both Lightysnake and I have brought up old examples (DCAU!Brainiac, Light Yagami, Sauron) that neither he nor I is really in a position to tell people not to do it, unless they're being really, really problematic about it (or bringing up someone like Katejina Loos, who really was talked to death).

edited 26th Feb '15 8:35:23 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar