Broken Base Cleanup

Re Ducktales: broken bases that are split based on pre-release hype and speculation tend to mend after the work is released and can be judged on its own merits, and in any case by definition fail the "sustained" portion of the definition.

Re Supernatural: Man, I forgot how long that show has gone on. I don't think it's necessary that a broke base be broken forever to count, but the split should last a significant amount of time. If the split only lasted while the fourth and fifth seasons were still coming out and people moved on shortly after, I don't think it counts. If it persisted for years after, then maybe it does.

Broken Base for the Hunter × Hunter YMMV page could use a bit of clean-up.

• Broken Base: All over the place ever since the new series began airing, and even before that. There are fans (including those who are only familiar with the original anime) who either:
  • Are disappointed or don't mind that it's a reboot.
  • Are disappointed that the new series doesn't change things around^note Including things like anime-only characterizations, such as Killua's moodiness like the previous one did or don't mind that it's truer to the manga.
  • Hate or don't mind the new voices.
  • Lately each major arc seems to do this. Greed Island got really long winded and overly complex, but had some redeeming qualities shine through; and opinions are REALLY divided on the Chimera Ant arc. Some declare it the complete and utter ruination of the series, while others find it to have the depth and complexity that makes Hunter x Hunter stand out among Shonen.
  • The opening theme from the reboot has been used for all episodes regardless of the arc. You either love it or hate it.
  • The narration throughout the palace invasion portion of the Chimera Ant arc gets this in both the manga, and the 2011 anime adaptation. You either enjoy it, because it brings a different approach to portraying how the battles go down, or you find it annoying, and just wish it did the battles in normal Shonen fashion.
    • In general, the Chimera Ant Arc is a divisive arc. Some love it for its Darker and Edgier approach, great villains, and mature writing. However, some hate it because of the aforementioned narration breaks, poor pacing (with some fights, like the one the Phantom Troupe took part in, that could have been on the cutting room floor), Gon feeling like a side character in his own series when he's not angsting over Kite, characters being unceremoniously killed off ( like Pokkle, Ponzu, and Kite) to show how much of a threat the Chimera Ants are, the anti-climactic resolution with the four main Chimera Ants, and Kite being reborn as a Chimera Ant, which renders Gon's Wangst completely pointless.
  • Hisoka bringing himself back from the dead after his fight with Chrollo. Was it a well thought out plot twist, or was it an Ass Pull that made Hisoka seem overpowered?

The only one that I think is kind of legit is the one for the Palace Invasion narration.

And I don't want to really call anyone out, but there was a troper named Animeking 1108 who clearly has a deep hatred of the Chimera Ant arc (just look to his Dethroning moment for said Story Arc on the Anime and Manga dethroning page). Said troper wrote the negatively biased example that comes after the narration bullet, and also wrote a bunch of other YMMV examples hating on said Story Arc that have, for the most part, been cleaned up since then.

Point is, his Broken Base example is highly questionable.

^ I tend to be suspicious of any example that calls out one specific element of one specific portion of a much larger work, so I'd be inclined to say that the narration during the palace invasion probably doesn't count either. I'm not familiar with the work myself, so if you tell me I'm wrong I'll believe you, but I'd still like to see the entry written so as to more firmly establish that this is a sustained split and not a short-term quibble.

As for the rest, it all looks eminently cuttable to me.

edited 16th Jun '17 6:50:30 AM by HighCrate

Another Broken Base that could be looked at is the YMMV page for the Pokemon Anime. It was actually greatly reduced recently when tropers decided to clean up the page a bit, but it ended up becoming a long mess again.

^ Regarding the Palace Invasion, the most I can say is that I've seen both sides on youtube video comments. Detractors claim that the narrator stating everything that goes on suffers too much Captain Obvious while people who enjoy the narration are left happy knowing that battles and such don't fall into the Explaining Your Power to the Enemy trope. Instead, fighters take the time to learn how their enemy's powers work themselves. Again though...youtube.

edited 16th Jun '17 11:08:11 AM by Retloclive

From the Avatar: The Last Airbender YMMV page underneath the "Franchise as a Whole" Folder:

Broken Base:

• Over how much Bryke actually contributed to the development of the series and if Aaron Ehasz should be considered the real genius behind the franchise. There is also the great divide between the the fans who love Bryke and the fans who hate Bryke. Mike and Bryan became quite unpopular when they started to insult their own fans (such as making an entire video out of fanart drawn by children to mock Zutara shippers) but it wasn't until the polarizing sequel series The Legend of Korra and their refusal to listen to criticism (and continuous insulting of their fanbase - this time with Bryan even drawing a comic about how "stupid" his fans were) that really made their hatedom grow. Are Bryke are still just as good as ever, did they lose their writing skills, or were they never good writers in the first place because they relied on the other staff members to do the heavy lifting?

• Whether any of the canonical pairings were developed well enough, it has gotten to the point where "Bryke can't write romance" can often be heard uttered throughout the fandom. While most people are tolerant of Sokka/Suki, they continue to be very divided on the way ships such as Aang/Katara, Zuko/Mai, Mako/Korra, Bolin/Eska, Zhu Li/Varrick, Korra/Asami were written. It was worse with this fandom than most others because the creators themselves frequently got involved. Bryke made a video insulting their Zutara fans only to admit a couple of years later that in retrospect that Kataang felt a bit forced. Bryke mentioned that Korra and Mako were made for each other but then they said they were never supposed to last.

It's pretty clear to me that both entries are largely one-sided, only representing one side of the fanbase, which makes the entries sound only like complaining instead of reflecting two or more sides of the fanbase in heated conflict.

edited 16th Jun '17 5:21:52 PM by capthanos

Welcome to Broken Base..

Yeah, chop 'em.

In my experience, most of the fandom opinions about ATLA is about the content of the franchise itself, rather than about the creators. There's a huge part of it who're largely ignorant or uncaring about the creators.

The example also refers to them "insulting the fanbase" as if it's about the entire fanbase, when a large part of the fanbase found those things funny. That makes it seem as if only one side is legitimate.

edited 16th Jun '17 9:54:20 PM by AnotherDuck

I cut some Broken Base entries from YMMV.Lego Dimensions, but I don't know what to do with the one concerning Sonic the Hedgehog. Since I don't spend a lot of time among the Sonic fandom, I don't know how high this debate escalated.

I took the initiative of cutting this on YMMV.Sonic Colors because it was clearly a one-sided rant. If people can elaborate the other side of the argument, it would be nice.

• Nowadays, some groups of fans are panning Colors' gameplay as being boring, disjointed and unbalanced. This stems from a combination of the game eschewing the 2D/3D balance of Unleashed by reducing 3D areas and sections in favor of the 2D and the gameplay withing those 2D areas being both unusually bland and boxy for a Sonic game and, conflictingly, spread out and frustratingly tricky to get past in a way that makes some levels into a real slog. The fact that despite the biggger emphasis on platforming, Sonic is just as fast and twitchy as ever and a lot of the more frustrating levels rely on the more pace breaking Wisps such as the Blue Cube and Purple Frienzy makes things even worse.

There is definitely a broken base among DC fans and viewers in general about the DCEU's treatment of the characters. Basically it's about the tone. Can't we just phrase that neutrally?

YMMV.Star Wars Rebels has an extremely large Broken Base section. I didn't scrutinize it very much (bar the first entry, which seems more like a really minor point), but I suspect trimming will be necessary.

BrokenBase.Friday The13th The Game new page with just six examples.

Kill it on principle.

Copied BrokenBase.Doctor Who over to Sandbox.Broken Base Doctor Who, BrokenBase.Game Of Thrones to Sandbox.Broken Base Game Of Thrones, BrokenBase.Once Upon A Time to Broken Base Once Upon A Time, BrokenBase.Sherlock to Broken Base Sherlock, and Broken Base/Supernatural to Broken Base Supernatural and cutlisted them.

Will move on to the main BrokenBase.Live Action TV page next.

edited 21st Jun '17 1:57:59 PM by HighCrate

• In general, the strongest fault lines in the fandom are which of the villans' (Regina, Rumple, Hook, Zelena) redemption plots you believe in, whether all, none, or some combination thereof. This will almost always determine which corner of the fandom you hang in, which ships you ship (ie, someone who does not believe Rumple's redemption likely does not ship Rumbelle); coupled with how seriously you take the show overall varying from a Guilty Pleasure to a fun romp to Serious Business.

This in my mind is a keeper for Once Upon a Time.

These two are from YMMV.Shovel Knight:

• Heads I Win, Tails You Lose tends to be a frustrating trope in and of itself, but the Shovel Knight fights in Plague of Shadows left a lot of players grumbling because it didn't make a whole lot of sense. That, and attacking someone while their back is turned isn't a very knightly thing to do, especially since Shovel Knight seems like the most Paragon of the knights. And then he abandons the Order to dangle after the Boss Rush.
• Body Swap mode is beginning to become this. While the whole fandom doesn't have entirely negative feelings on it, there is a camp saying that certain design changes (Female Shovel Knight's Hartman Hips, Queen Knight's breastplate noticeably emphasizing said breasts in the sprite) aren't necessary, while another camp doesn't mind. There's also a select few people pointing out the gender select being regulated to "female" and "male" bodies and pronouns with nothing gender neutral.

I can't even explain it, but something about these seem a little off (especially the first one).

edited 26th Jun '17 9:09:46 AM by ElloMe

Those are both textbook examples of "complain complain complain ...but some people don't mind it." The first doesn't even bother with the "but some people don't mind it" bit.

Cut 'em both, I say.

YMMV.Undertale could use a lot of trimming down.

• Broken Base:
  • The fanbase cannot agree on what name fits the Kill Em All route better. The more popular choice of name is the Genocide route, since this is exactly what the protagonist does; however, some of the fanbase feels the name is too much of a Spoiler, and call it the No Mercy route instead. Those who prefer the name "Genocide" argue back that the "No Mercy" name is too vague and fits other routes of the game better (such as the one where all the bosses are killed but none of the monsters, or one where all the bosses and some of the monsters are killed). A few Take a Third Option and call it "Max LV" (due to the latter resulting inthe player hitting the LV cap) or "having a bad time" (after a creepily-delivered line from an NPC warning the player not to continue their murderous ways).
  • There are those who are split on whether the game's story and overall message is amazing and refreshing or if it's average at best or poorly executed at worst. This is held especially true for the pacifist route regarding Asriel. On one side, you have people who feel that the story doesn't live up to the message of "don't kill and be kind to people" because Asriel was slain by humans after he tried to bring Chara's body back to them out of respect. On the other end, you have those that feel that the aspect of being and doing good is what matters the most rather than what the end result of it brings and how some people simply cannot be saved no matter what you do because that's how life is.
  • Some fans are divided over the Genocide route tainting your game forever. There are workarounds to purify the game, but some people are annoyed at how far out of their way they have to go to enjoy the game their way. The other camp is annoyed at the first group for rejecting the message of "you aren't above consequences."
  • On a similar note, whether or not players should be encouraged to go for the Genocide Route. Many argue that it's a part of the game that must be played in order to get the full experience and not playing it is an injustice to the game. However, the fact that the game repeatedly discourages the player from doing this (especially after achieving the Golden Ending) and heavily guilt-trips them if they do and, as mentioned above, will permanently taint the game with a Happy Ending Override on any future Pacifist runs should they complete the Genocide route has led others to feel encouraging newer players to play the route is overly cruel. (Also, the Genocide route's messages hit the hardest for players going into it willingly.)
  • As of the 1.01 patch, the Gaster Easter Eggs are occasionally accessible without having to edit the game files. Some fans enjoy being able to find them in an easier and more intuitive fashion, while others feel that putting Gaster into the game proper takes away from his story and makes the secrets less interesting.
  • Nintendo contacting Toby about a potential Wii U/3DS release of Undertale has caused one, despite it just being a possibility. The main reasons cited being that there's still content to be finished from the kickstarter, and it would be incredibly weird and technical to make stuff like Flowey crashing the game, the stuff with Gaster, or avoiding the Genocide route's consequences work, since you can't mess around with files in the same way on a console.
  • Discussing Mettaton's gender is often fuel for flame wars on a massive scale; while Mettaton is referred to as he in the game (unlike characters like the Human Child and the ghosts, who both in-game text and characters are content not to specify and the latter of which are actually the same species as Mettaton, making him the only ghost who's gendered in the game), his effeminate behavior and rather... flashy EX form have lead to many an instance of Viewer Gender Confusion among more casual fans and been played in arguments over just what he identifies as.
  • Relating to this, there's whether Mettaton "counts" as being transgender or not. His change from being a ghost to possessing a robot body is referred to in his diaries in similar terms as a gender transition might be, enough that if nothing else there's a case for him being a transgender allegory or trans equivalent of the Discount Lesbians trope of sorts, and is combined with his pronouns changing from a gender-neutral they/them/their into he/him/his - for some fans, this is enough for them to feel that he canonically counts as transgender representation, while others actively deny that gender is even an issue with his character. People on both sides can be incredibly aggressive about the whole thing.
  • There's a decent point of conflict within the fandom over Asriel and his ultimate fate in the Pacifist Run. Some fans argue that his actions as Flowey don't make him worth having his own happy ending, or believe that him staying in the underground as a redeemed but still emotionless flower is suitable penance, or that there needs to be one last moment of bittersweet to keep the ending from being insufferably Tastes Like Diabetes. The other side... well, the amount of Fix Fics that have Asriel saved, one way or another, should tell you that there's a massive crowd who thinks absolutely everyone should get their happy ending, even him.
  • There's also the Internet Backdraft over Frisk's canonical identity. Is Frisk meant to be a Featureless Protagonist Player Avatar, and therefore whatever gender the player is? Or is Frisk always and only ever their own person who refuses to identify as male or female? Does Frisk belong to a specific race (many players think Frisk may be of East Asian descent, citing their yellow-ish skin and Eyes Always Closed appearance), or is their appearance just a limitation of the graphics?
  • Mentioning a sequel is usually a surefire way to get the fanbase fired up. One side believes that the game's Golden Ending should remain as is (thus no sequel), while the other side feels that the game can expand upon a sequel and that there's room for it.
  • Is Toby a genius for using Recurring Riffs and recycling songs (often speeding them up or slowing them down by large magnitudes, to the point where it's not obvious), or is he lazy for not coming up with more original tracks?
  • The role of the Fallen Child, "Chara". With their backstory left vague and completely unanswered by the end of the game, fans have argued whether or not they are the true Big Bad of Undertale, Frisk's Mission Control and the game's Lemony Narrator, or even the Anomaly and the true Player Character themselves. Each theory has varying levels of in-game evidence, but each also raises several questions, meaning none are "right," but this doesn't stop fans from arguing theirs as "the most right." To make the situation all the more complicated, each theory came out chronologically, meaning Genocide Chara Theory has been around the longest and has become the base for both TV Tropes and the Undertale Wiki (meaning newcomers will likely see it first), Narrator Chara Theory has been around for a shorter time but is quickly gaining supporters across social media and gaming websites, and Player Chara Theory is only held by a small minority.
  • To go with the other Broken Base examples above, particularly involving the Genocide route, the Happy Ending Override, Asriel, and Chara. There is the idea of a "Redemption Route" where the players not only fully atone after ending the world and selling their soul to Chara, but saving Asriel and the redeeming Chara as well. Many who are against this idea see it as contradicting the game's message about "no one is above consequences", not to mention the game itself offers the player several chances to stop killing. However, the other side who like the idea sees it as going for the game's other message of Forgiveness.

I think all of the Undertale pages could use a cleanup, but that's beside the point.

Undertale is a clusterfuck of fans and antifans with opinions everyone else should have. I'm not that involved in the fanbase, but I've heard a bunch. These are my impressions:

• The name of that route doesn't split the fanbase. There are disagreements, but there's no real war.
• About the game's overall message, I think that's more between fans and those who don't like the game.
• The result of the Genocide route, maybe. That's at least between two groups of fans.
• Whether players should play the Genocice route, probably not an example. I don't think it's that severe.
• Gaster Easter Eggs, no. It's a minor thing on the whole.
• The Nintendo thing is just about speculations and wheat cold beans.
• Mettaton's gender... No idea about that discussion.
• That character's happy ending... No idea either. I don't think it's that massive of a war, but the opinions are clearly divided.
• Frisk's canonical identity is about a lot of different opinions where no one agrees, rather than distinct camps, so I'd say no on that.
• A sequel... Maybe? There are certainly arguments in two camps there.
• Toby's compositional skills is about him rather than the actual musuc, so I think that should be cut.
• The role of "Chara" is theorising, and I don't think that's quite the war the trope requires.
• The last one is a side note compared to several of the above the way I've seen it.

Gaster and Toby's music are absolutely cutworthy. Until something surfaces the Nintendo one is probably safe to comment out since it's way too theoretical at this point. For that same reason I'm also debating whether the sequel entry should go.

Second, third, and fourth ones seem worth keeping.

The wars over what to call the Kill Em All route and Mettaton and Frisk's genders (Frisk's race not so much) are vicious enough even to this day that I think they're still noteworthy, though I think the two Mettaton entries can be combined into one.

The Chara and last one sound more like fan reaction to WMG than anything else.

As someone who is actively involved in the fanbase, I do think interpretations of Chara (in terms of how good or evil they are) should be mentioned in Base Breaker, if slimmed down a bit. I have a friend who's actually received threats because she portrays Chara as a bad person. And as proof it's not an isolated incident, here are two posts from a very prominent artist in the fandom:

http://tc-96.deviantart.com/art/Please-Read-Endertale-Chara-639618244

http://tc-96.deviantart.com/art/Please-Read-One-more-rant-681679588

That sounds like it belongs under some kind of fanwork, since it's people reacting to a character interpretation in a derivative work.

Also, two threads by one person doesn't exactly scream "the entire fandom is in war".

I think it could fit, insofar as people are divided on whether or not Chara should be regarded as a bad person, and that people with one opinion tend to react badly towards people with another.

There needs to be more examples of such a conflict then, because "Take our word that it happens! Just look at how this person gets death threats!" still doesn't exactly scream "The entire fanbase is completely torn in half by this issue."

edited 28th Jun '17 1:29:30 PM by dragonfire5000

In Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy

• Broken Base:
  • When the remakes were announced at E3 2016, fans were extremely divided. Some were ecstatic that Crash is returning and are hopeful that the sales of the remakes will give Activision a reason to fully revive the Crash franchise, while others are upset at the news of remakes instead of a entirely new game.
  • Whether or not Naughty Dog and Sony should be making the remakes instead of Vicarious Visions and Activision is also a good way to start flame wars in the fandom.
    • Overlaps somewhat with Only the Creator Does It Right: Some fans have said that their only problem with the remakes is that Activision is behind them, while others think that Vicarious Visions' GBA games were more faithful than the other non-Naughty Dog titles and are at least happy it's them and not Radical Entertainment or Traveller's Tales.
  • When it comes to the visuals, do you like the classic-styled return to form? Or do you think it looks like a cheapo fan-project?
  • Some fans are divided over using the modern-era voice actors for the remakes over those of the original games (though to their credit, they do make a better attempt to mimic the originals).
    • One particular sticking point with fans is giving the characters who were voiced via Stock Sound Effect, especially Ripper Roo, proper voice actors. A lot of people cannot accept any other kind of laughter coming from Ripper Roo other than the Dallas McKennon archival audio, which has practically become known as the "Ripper Roo laugh" because it's so heavily connected with the character.
    • The sound design in general has been one of the most heavily-criticized aspects of the game, especially in the music department. Several tracks either sound off-key in places (like Native Fortress and Heavy Machinery) while others are missing track-defining instruments and/or sound effects (like Boulders and Upstream) and still others sound almost nothing like their original versions (like Generator Room and Slippery Climb). Some like that the original music has been given a fresh spin, while others believe that the higher-quality "pre-console" versions of the original tracks would have worked just fine.
  • Coco's goofier animations, especially idles such as her taking selfies. Some fans of the character complain about the Denser and Wackier treatment compared to her more subtle characterization in the original games, though some enjoy Coco taking further part in the games' trademark humour and consider her to now have more personality than her Positive Discrimination interpretation in the original games.
  • The games running at 30FPS, even on the PS 4 Pro, especially when one of the initial trailers showed the game running 60FPS. Is this a big problem with the game, or is it no big deal?
  • Another one is whether or not they should have added some more scenes. As noted under They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot, some argue that they could have tied up some loose ends from the original versions. Some others, however, felt that the games are fine enough without additional scenes, and in fact, think they might have bogged the pacing down, so they're glad they didn't go that route.

Those all look like the sort of short-term quibbles people have before or shortly after a remake comes out. If they're still arguing in six months, you'll have an argument for a sustained, factionized conflict. In the meantime, cut that nonsense.