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Ambiguous Name (new crowner 3/15/12): Finger Twiddling get usage counts

 1 lebrel, Wed, 29th Feb '12 11:37:34 AM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
An issue raised in the Anime Tropes cleanup effort. Currently, Finger Twiddling covers a specific gesture (putting the index fingers together and wiggling, tapping or twisting them) that is used in Japanese media (and possibly elsewhere) to indicate shyness or embarrassment, particularly in cases of cute female characters trying to confess romantic feelings.

On the other hand, there are other kinds of finger twiddling that could be tropeable (nervous, bored, about-to-explode), and Finger Twiddling is a very broad name; the description is already starting to drift in the direction of broader twiddling types, and it has a couple of examples that don't fit the original definition (such as the Howl's Moving Castle and The Rock). Does it need a Trope Transplant to Shy Finger Twiddling or something like that, so we can free up the current name for other types of twiddling?

56 links (including four indexes), 68 inbounds. Most of the wicked examples are of the contextless "character X does this" type, but the ones with description seem mostly correct.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 2 Spark 9, Wed, 29th Feb '12 12:00:24 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
I Thought It Meant random gestures people perform when they're idle and/or bored?
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 3 lebrel, Wed, 29th Feb '12 12:06:03 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] Exactly. That's why we thought we'd propose a Trope Transplant, because the trope doesn't mean that..
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
We need a trope for the Japanese variant because it seems like a trope. We may or may not need a supertrope for it.

I think the big question is how exactly the usage is looking. "Just a little bit of Trope Decay that could get worse" and "Lots and lots of Trope Decay that's taking over the page" are problems that usually require different solutions. Checking the wicks would be very helpful here; so would checking the examples list.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 5 Louie W, Wed, 29th Feb '12 9:12:48 PM from Babycowland
Loser
Forefinger Twiddling, Associated With Being Shy/Embarrassed/Nervous/Awkward (15)

Forefinger Twiddling, Associated With Having Romantic Feelings (10)

General Finger Twiddling/Unclear Which Type of Finger Twiddling (3)

Other (3)

Index/Trope etc. (6)

No Context/Unclear (19)

From what I can tell*, it definitely seems like uses of this trope for the "having a crush" version of finger twiddling are in the minority, so I would be okay with making a Shy Finger Twiddling subtrope.

edited 29th Feb '12 9:14:38 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
 6 Deboss, Wed, 29th Feb '12 11:47:28 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Essentially, I think it would be better to have a sort of subindex of Body Language called Finger Twiddling with the different variants listed. Similar to something like Hand Gestures.

I would posit that being shy about romance counts for the trope.
 7 lebrel, Thu, 1st Mar '12 9:38:14 AM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
I agree that "shy generally" and "shy because of romance" don't need to be split.

So options:
  1. Leave as is
  2. Rename to Shy Finger Twiddling or something, leave Finger Twiddling as a redirect
  3. Trope Transplant to Shy Finger Twiddling or something, repurpose Finger Twiddling as a supertrope/index
  4. Deboss's idea (if I understand it correctly): split Finger Twiddling into Internal Subtropes

Opinions?

edited 1st Mar '12 9:40:10 AM by lebrel

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Those wicks look okay. If people are mostly using it correctly, we probably don't need to rename. I'm thinking a supertrope for Finger Twiddling in general is likely to be People Sitting On Chairs and unnecessary. Sister tropes would be fine, though. (That thing Mr. Burns does with the "Excellent..." seems like a sister trope, for example.)

It wouldn't be the first time that a trope has gotten a name that seems too broad but manages to work out okay in spite of it.

edited 1st Mar '12 2:49:15 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
 9 Septimus Heap, Thu, 1st Mar '12 2:55:53 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
I think that the supertrope here would look like chairs without being chairs. Also, "meaningful finger twiddling" looks like a Missing Supertrope here.

 10 Troacctid, Thu, 1st Mar '12 2:57:29 PM from California
I think there's a viable supertrope for little gestures and tics, but not for finger-twiddling specifically—that sounds like The Same but More Specific of the one for the little gestures and tics.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 11 lebrel, Thu, 1st Mar '12 3:06:35 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
"Little gestures and tics in general" sounds like Character Tics. If there are no other viable tropes for Finger Twiddling, then OK. Maybe just remove this bit from the description:

Western expression of this trope can be thumb twiddling, an entirely different gesture, often used in a situation where the character could be jiggling their foot. Thumb twiddling is accomplished by holding the hands together with fingers of both hands loosely woven together, the action is the the twirling of the thumbs in circles around one another.

Because foot-jiggling and thumb-twirling are not usually signs of shyness, embarassment or romantic feelings.

As for Nosebleed, we have at least two other nosebleed tropes: Psychic Nosebleed and Deadly Nosebleed. It's kinda amazing that Nosebleed stays so on-track, considering the name.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 12 Troacctid, Thu, 1st Mar '12 3:08:24 PM from California
"Little gestures and tics in general" sounds like Character Tics.
There we go, that'll be the one. It should have an indexed list of subtropes.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 13 shimaspawn, Thu, 1st Mar '12 3:09:02 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up] We're tried to rename it many times, but the anime fans keep shouting it down.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 14 Septimus Heap, Thu, 1st Mar '12 3:25:35 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
If you can't rename something, you might try to make it an index + trope instead.

 15 lebrel, Thu, 1st Mar '12 3:26:56 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] I think s/he's talking about Nosebleed. What's your opinion on Finger Twiddling?
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 16 Septimus Heap, Thu, 1st Mar '12 3:33:22 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
I think that this trope could either be redefined to be not exclusively about embarassment/shyness etc. or split according to the meaning of the finger-twiddling.

 17 Deboss, Fri, 2nd Mar '12 1:12:45 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I'm actually in favor of option 3. I don't like softsplitting trope pages unless there's only two or three different ways to use something.

Analogy time: I think that the page smiling should be a disambiguation/supertrope/index/thingy for the ways you can use the Body Language of a smile to emote. The individual things you can emote with a specific part of the body are the actual tropes, organizing by body part seems chairsy because it's pure organizational, rather than having any specific meaning.

Replace "smiling" with Finger Twiddling and you have why I think we should Trope Transplant this trope down one level. I think we may also want to look into building some subindexes of Body Language built around the body part used, as that's the easiest way to sort (to me anyway). We should also build a similar one around what the body language is telling us. I feel that both have options.

We may also need a larger supertrope for simply Hand Gestures.

I believe Finger Drumming and Steepled Finger Drumming would work under such a trope as well.

edited 2nd Mar '12 1:18:19 PM by Deboss

 18 lebrel, Sat, 3rd Mar '12 2:44:53 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] Ah, OK, I did misinterpret your suggestion. Should we gather proposals for other tropeable kinds of Finger Twiddling?

Regarding supertropes, we have the index Hand Tropes, which includes hand gestures among many other assorted things.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 19 lebrel, Mon, 5th Mar '12 1:25:39 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Bump. Anyone else have an opinion? Rename, transplant, leave alone?
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 20 Septimus Heap, Mon, 5th Mar '12 3:07:28 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Transplant the current trope to Shy Finger Twiddling and make a supertrope here is my preferred option. Or just take a Page Action crowner.

 21 lebrel, Mon, 5th Mar '12 3:31:24 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Page Action crowner.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 22 Deboss, Mon, 5th Mar '12 10:57:58 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Boredom strikes me as the most likely. Particularly if they've got a pencil or something to play with. Or that coin twirling thing. I suppose there could be stuff about using it as a visual distraction by the person doing it, which seems to be really close to the shyness thing.
 23 shimaspawn, Mon, 5th Mar '12 11:08:46 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Shyness, or trying to figure out what to say. People talk with their hands a lot in fiction and finger twiddling seems to indicate that a character's mind is in swirling beach-ball loading mode.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Cure Candy
Well this is a specific form of Finger Twiddling with the two index fingers like the page image shows.... going up and down together (I had a GIF of it being done in Yes! Pretty Cure 5 of the lead doing it while being scolded... but for the life of me I cant find it in my mass images.) that is the gesture for this trope.

EDIT: Not A Gif but the example I was thinking of [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

I do not know the specific name for this gesture but it is so connected to Dandere / Shrinking Violet, Tsundere, Moe and Dojikko that it has to have a name, if anything I would say this is heavily underused actually for such a common gesture in Japanese Works.

Mr Burns does his whole hand and is very staunchly different from this.

EDIT 2: My fingers cant do the gesture very well... wtf. Its probably related to the Japanese Office Lady pen twirling thing too.(which I have the instructions for... in japanese.))

edited 7th Mar '12 9:49:41 AM by Raso

 25 lebrel, Wed, 7th Mar '12 11:42:54 AM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] Everyone agrees that that is what is currently covered by Finger Twiddling. The question is how to deal with other kinds of finger twiddling.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

Alternative Titles: Finger Twiddling
13th Mar '12 10:13:15 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the name will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of Crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative names.
At issue:
Previous crowner decided to Trope Transplant Finger Twiddling. This crowner picks the new name for the current trope.
Total posts: 62
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