Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.
Here's a courtesy link: TRS page
. And Badass page with its subtropes. You can also visit the sandbox page here.
Noted Problems include:
- Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
- Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
- Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.
Suggested things to do include:
- Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
- Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
- Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.
There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.
Edited by Berrenta on May 15th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM
The Unknown
We were gong to vote for whether or not to keep the wicks after the redefinition was finished. Did we already do that and I just missed something?
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
No, wicks weren't discussed so far.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
^^ That still needs to be settled, the only thing agreed on so far is to cut ZCE wicks. The examples on the page (well, the medium subpages) were voted cut.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
The Unknown
I still think this trope is omnipresent and broad enough that we should cut all the example wicks.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Agreed. There are enough "badass" tropes that whatever is listed as context can be moved to another trope.
On another note, I'm sorry about jumping the gun with the definition switch out. My thought process was "this general shape and form has consensus and individual tropers can make minor edits as needed".
Another ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for no wicks.
I'm giving sorting "subtropes" a try. Here's a preview, the rest will be done shortly. I'm sorting the tropes by meanings, which might help indicate what tropes they could be subtropes of. Also, added a laconic commentary on each trope's meaning for convenience:
- Adaptational Badass: Character becomes a competent fighter in an adaptation.
- Asskicking Equals Authority: Competent fighters become rulers.
- Authority Equals Asskicking: The bigger the rank, the more competent the fighter.
- Hidden Badass: Index. Characters you wouldn't expect to be competent fighters, but they are.
- Action Fashionista: They're fashionable, but they can kick ass.
- Pregnant Badass: She's pregnant, but she can kick ass.
- Ambadassador: They're a diplomat, but they can kick ass.
- Agent Peacock: He's effeminate, but he can kick ass.
- Badass Adorable: They're adorable, but they can kick ass (or are just very, very powerful).
- Cute Bruiser: She's a cute girl, but she can kick ass in bruiser style (with fists or blunt objects).
- Killer Rabbit: Animal looks adorable, but it can kick ass (or is just very, very powerful, or is poisonous, or is dangerous in some other way)
- Harbinger of Asskicking: Index. Things that happen before a battle.
- Badass and Baby: Character is holding a baby while fighting in a battle.
- My Name Is Inigo Montoya: Character introduces themselves before a battle.
- The Ace: Someone who's the best at something (or even everything).
- Did You Just Index Cthulhu?: Index. DYJPOC snowclones.
- Badass Back: Character is so ballsy, they turn their back to their enemy and still kick their ass.
- Offhand Backhand: A specific type of Badass Back.
- Action Hero: A hero who primarily solves things via fighting.
- Action Girl: Female Action Hero.
- Action Dad: Action Hero who happens to be a dad.
- Action Mom: Action Hero who happens to be a mom.
- Action Girlfriend: Ordinary guy's girlfriend is an Action Hero.
- Action Pet: Action Hero who is a pet.
- Badass and Child Duo: Action Hero (usually male) is teamed up with a kid.
- Pre-Asskicking One-Liner: Catchphrase an Action Hero says before kicking ass.
- Violently Protective Girlfriend: Girlfriend is violently protective of her boyfriend.
- Ass-Kicking Pose: Combat stance.
- Badass Arm-Fold: Armfold that shows that the character is “badass” or very ambitious or very powerful.
- Awesome Aussie: White male Australians are stereotyped as manly.
- Badass Baritone: Baritone voices are manly.
- Badass Beard: Beards are manly.
- Badass Bandolier: Bandoliers look cool.
- Badass Boast: Boast that sounds cool.
- Action Survivor: Average Joe who is thrust into a dangerous situation and manages to survive it and even do something heroic.
- Almighty Janitor: Character has a low rank, but is very (powerful? a competent fighter? skillful?)
- Badass Biker: Biker who is (cool? an Action Hero? a tough fighter?)
- Biker Babe: Hot woman who drives or rides a bike.
- Bond One-Liner: Punny one-liner said after the character kills someone.
- Pre-Mortem One-Liner: One-liner said before the character kills someone.
edited 20th Oct '15 4:51:56 AM by Rjinswand
"In distress", my ass.
^ For the "Hidden Badass" part, I believe Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass would fit.
All your safe space are belong to Trump
Thanks, yeah, it would.
I just haven't reached it yet (I'm currently on "B").
edited 20th Oct '15 7:02:04 AM by Rjinswand
^^^ Looks good. I also support cutting wick examples.
By now I've cutlisted or redirected the medium subpages depending on the number of inbounds.
edited 21st Oct '15 3:19:45 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
I've declined these cut requests, because there was a request to hold a list of examples for future YKTTW to use. If there is a list somewhere of these examples the cut requests can be resubmitted.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I was under the impression that proposed trope would be built from the ground up, but if some of these can be salvaged then sure, let's go over them.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
One question I wonder is whether the wicks should be also subject to a crowner and whether to headline it - it's a big impact change on the one hand, but on the other hand these kinds of headlines are frowned upon it seems to me.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
If you're asking for opinions before discussing it as a moderator group, then I think we should put it up as a headliner (and that headliners remain for a minimum of 21 days, Rule of Three applied to a week because it is so Week-ki wide).
But I also think that the headliner should wait until the Bad Ass page has been fixed, because we will see people complaining about the recent change and trying to substantially alter it.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
If you're going to cut the subpages (which, to clarify, is an action that I generally support, just maybe not immediately now), could you please save their content somewhere? (maybe in a Sandbox page) That way, those examples could be recycled in new tropes.
edited 21st Oct '15 10:41:14 AM by Rjinswand
I've collected the examples for Badass itself in three sandboxes:
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
About the so called "subtropes" on the Bad Ass page, are we going to keep them or remove them? It sounds as if we have enough indexes for all of them so that is not a reason to keep them, and it would be weird for a fanspeak term to have subtropes so that doesn't strike me as a reason to keep them either. The only reason I see to keep them is a Common Badass Traits page.
The subtropes ALL have issues to them, every one of them needs some kind of repair/rename/adjustment.
I was attempting to get that started two pages back when I asked about it. Using Badass Princess,which is any 'not a Damsel in Distress' princess, and it's redirect Warrior Princess which you know is a combat princess that is very likely leading armies into battle and such.
Basically the difference between the not useless incarnations of Zelda and Hyrule Warriors Zelda who leads Hyrule's armies from the front and murders thusands of Ganon's creatures in every battle.
edited 21st Oct '15 3:24:25 PM by Memers
@1353: Is Escapist Character necessary to be included as one of Badass trait? I mean, we already have Marty Stu for Mary Sue's Spear Counterpart.
Yes, I'd say that Warrior Princess should become the main title for Badass Princess. That would be more clear, explict, and as you say, move away from "a princess who is not a damsel in distress". A Distaff Counterpart for Warrior Prince.
A Gary Stu is basically a hyper badass. Quoting from the page "He's an unstoppable fighter, a rogue agent, a fearless freedom fighter, a master of disguise." Also, quoted from the page "devastatingly handsome (or if not, possessed of a strange, saturnine magnetism) and desired by all significant women". If anything, the listing on Badass should be altered
Guys, I'm close to finishing my analysis of the whole "Badass subtrope" list. Give me a couple more days.
My preliminary conclusions are:
- There are several large groups of tropes with related meanings ("action hero tropes", "hidden badass tropes", "bravery tropes" etc). Those should be made into their own separate indexes (some already exist, like Hidden Badass).
- There are also many tropes that don't really fit into any large group. We would need to find appropriate indexes for them.
- And then, there are some tropes that seem to have problems with their definitions. Those would warrant looking into, before we find an index for them.
Badass itself, being a fanspeak term with no definite meaning, should in my opinion be subtrope-less.
edited 22nd Oct '15 10:27:00 AM by Rjinswand
A Plucky Princess trope could work for the other examples but yeah.
I like the sound of that.
I like Action Princess better than Warrior Princess. Xena Warrior Princess isn't a princess from what I understand. It's just a way of saying that she's a great warrior.
Eh? Its the preexisting term for it and Warrior Prince exists. As well as Action Princess sounds kinda dumb and any kind of Plucky Princess could easily be shoehorned in to a name like that.
A Warrior Princess carries a sword or other weapon on a regular basis and uses it effectively and most of all, like the spear counterpart, they are involved in their country's affairs first hand especially the military. They are seen leading columns of soldiers like Sun Shang Xiang in Dynasty Warriors or leading the resistance vs the conquering country in Final Fantasy XII.
How about Military Princess or Amazonian Princess?
edited 23rd Oct '15 1:26:37 AM by Memers
We also need to cutlist or redirect the medium subpages, given that Badass has been voted exampleless. I also support cutting the subtrope list for now-we can figure out what to do with them in this thread, but keeping the list will only perpetuate confusion, and the consensus so far seems to be that Badass itself is not a Super-Trope, even if some of the tropes it lists have one or more common elements that are tropeable as supertropes or indexes.
@ 1370: Sure, reworking Hidden Badass as a trope for people who purposely hide their skills (assuming we don't have that already) and renaming Hidden Badass for characters who just defy expectations sounds like a good plan. I'm ambivalent about reworking the former official use of Badass as a new trope, as it could easily become Gushing About Characters You Like, but that would depend on the name and write-up we could hash out in YKTTW.
@ 1373: I did some initial sorting in this sandbox. So far I'm seeing several categories, though some tropes may fit in more than one. Generally I'm in favor of taking everything off the table that doesn't have "Badass" in the title, as those tropes tend to have concrete definitions that aren't suffering from the multi-definition issue that the snowclones have. They may have their own problems, but it's likely out of the purview of this thread.
edited 19th Oct '15 8:18:21 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"