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Hello, just so you know that I've a bit modified the table format so rather than entries within the same cell being separated with commas, I've managed to put separating lines for them. I've saved the old format in a Google Doc in case you guys don't like it.
What do you think? If you don't like it, let me know via replies or PM, then we can probably restore the old format.
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Well, holy crap. Analysis page gone too long. How do we separate this? Tell me your ideas on what pages to be separated.
EDIT: Since no one is replying, I took it upon myself and split it to 3 pages for now:
We can continue there.
Edited by ChrisX
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So... I just created pages for both Mobile Legends: Bang Bang and Marvel Super War. And in the same time, the shift of stance in MOBA seems tempting to change the format of the tables. For one thing: Heroes of the Storm gets a reduced development, Heroes of Newerth is about to die for real, both Awesomenauts and Vainglory stopped updating like HON... but things like Arena of Valor and the aforementioned MLBB are still going pretty strong, and it looks like Marvel Super War may enjoy a longer lifetime than, say, Infinite Crisis.
So I propose a change of tables, and I think I've got 2 types. Here's the first one:
| Archetype Name | ||||
| Description | ||||
| Dota 2 examples | League of Legends examples | Smite examples | ||
| Heroes of the Storm examples | Heroes of Newerth examples | Vainglory examples | ||
| Arena of Valor examples | Mobile Legends: Bang Bang examples | Marvel Super War examples | ||
| Awesomenauts examples (otherwise, put this with N/A) | ||||
| Other MOBA examples (if applicable) | ||||
| Hero Shooter examples (if applicable) | ||||
And here's the second one
| Archetype Name | |||||
| Description | |||||
| Dota 2 examples | League of Legends examples | Smite examples | Heroes of the Storm examples | ||
| Arena of Valor examples | Mobile Legends: Bang Bang examples | Marvel Super War examples | Pokémon Unite examples | ||
| Heroes of Newerth examples | Awesomenauts examples | Vainglory examples | (We may need to pull out one of the Others MOBA examples here, even if they're already dead. Dawngate?) | ||
| Other MOBA examples (if applicable) | |||||
| HERO SHOOTER EXAMPLES (If applicable) | |||||
| Team Fortress 2 examples | Valorant examples | Paladins examples | Overwatch examples | ||
| Other Hero Shooter examples (if applicable) | |||||
So the first row is for the original 4 big titans, even if one of them (HOTS) is no longer what it used to be. Second Row would be the rising mobile ones. Third row would be those who have just stopped updating and about to die.
Yes, I put Valorant on the second slot to line-up with the creators despite Overwatch coming first (Valve, Riot Games, Hi-Rez Studios, Blizzard).
But yeah, which version do you think fits better, the 3 columns or 4 columns ones? And in case of 4 columns, which MOBA do you think should take the third row, 4th column?
And another thing! 'Tropes associated with the archetype', think we should add them?
Discussion is welcome! Thanks!
Edited by ChrisX Hide / Show Replies
I really like the 4 column one, event though it will take work to put off, the third row, 4th column, maybe Paragon, since it was fairly popular (before Fortnite) and the only other 3rd person MOBA apart from SMITE and since EPIC Games put all assets of it for free several groups of people are making a rebirth of it (with different names, of course) so even thoigh it officially closed, its influence still lingers I don't understand 'Tropes associated with the archetype' aren't several tropes already included within each example's description? I forgot, maybe in the Fantasy/Job Archetypes a priest/priestess type, most likely a healer, is missing like how DOTA has Miriana, Lo L has Soraka, Hot S has Whitemane, etc.
Edited by CRSB00
I'll put the Priest/Priestess type in consideration. But there has to be a criteria instead of 'the job is a priest'. Otherwise, it might look too similar to the overspecced healers. Also... I thought Soraka was mostly healer, priest isn't her job actual job? Isn't she some sort of celestial?
I'll leave the entries of Paragon and Pokémon Unite to the rest of you guys because I kinda do not do those games. So I'll be counting on you guys for those.
Now then, time to start revamping... in my own file.
Edited by ChrisX
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There's another archetype that I think deserve a rework: The Ultimate Steroids.
I'm just saying that at first it's just steroids that purely give you considerable attack up without changing much of your style (something that Sven's God's Strength emphasized, it just raises your own attack power). But these days, people mistake it as mere attack buffs that sometimes can be granted onto others, or sometimes doubling as a Defense Steroid (Ursa's Enrage) or something that kind of changes them (Lycan's Shapeshift or even Dragon Knight's Elder Dragon Form).
So what I'm asking is how do we redefine the rules of these Steroids? (Attack and Defense and... do we need a DOUBLE Steroid, for cases of increasing both attack and defense?)
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I think it's best to redefine the Steroid entries to just abilities that only boost stats, and cut the misuse. If there's enough examples (4+), then we can split a Double Steroid into its own section; otherwise they can be listed on both for now.
All right, upon further analysis, I think there has been some extra additions that got lumped into 'Attack/Defense Steroid' (Additionally, this needs to affect only self. So Sven's War Cry do not count as a DEF Steroid). I'll just list the new ones:
- Pure Attack Steroid: Increases attack by stats and numbers alone without any other extra tidbits. You just simply deal more damage with your attack and have a chance to scale with items.
- DOTA: God's Strength (Sven), Insatiable Hunger (Broodmother. Granted, this one is not an ultimate so it's toned down. But we are NOT going to count lifesteal into the thing. It may require another archetype.)
- LOL: Blade of the Exile (Riven), Final Hour (Vayne)
- HOTS: Bestial Wrath (Rexxar. Yes, I know this is targeted, but Rexxar can only do it for Misha, who's very integral in his playstyle)
- HON: Brute Strength (Hammerstorm)
- AOV: Conqueror (Lu Bu)
- Defense Steroid: Increases defense numerically or makes you more resistant to crowd control. That's the key: Defense. Damage reduction and all.
- DOTA: Enrage (Ursa. Yes, they patched Enrage so it's purely defensive)
- LOL: Unbreakable Will (Alistar), Grandmaster's Might (Jax)
- S: Colossal Fury (Vamana)
- HOTS: Cloak of Shadows (Valeera)
- HP Steroid: Part of the Defense steroid, they temporarily increase HP with flat numbers as their form of defense:
- HOTS: Avatar (Muradin), Metamorphosis (Illidan)
- OW: Primal Rage (Winston)
- Mix-Match Steroid: Combining both ATK-DEF or DEF-HP
- ATK-DEF:
- HOTS: Wrath of the Berserker (Sonya)
- HON: Carnage (The Madman)
- AOV: Determination (Rourke)
- OW: Overclock (Torbjorn)
- ATK-HP
- DOTA: Flesh Golem (Undying — Because it increases STR, it means it gave him ATK Power and HP in the same time)
- DEF-HP
- P: Ancient Rage (Makoa)
- ATK-DEF:
- Attack Speed Steroid: Attempting to increase the damage by increasing how many attack you can throw in a short time without making you more powerful at each hit. In case of Hero Shooter, this is changed to either reload speed or how many ammos can you shoot.
- DOTA: Chemical Rage (Alchemist), Unleash (Marci)
- HON: Berserk (The Madman)
- P: Buck Wild (Buck), Crossfire (Tyra)
- Attack Enhancers: The attack and speed do not change, but they get an out-of-source modifier that enhances how much damage they deal.
- LOL: Thunder Claws (Old Volibear)
- S: Kingslayer (Set)
- P: Sentinels (Vivian)
- Switch Style: These not only increase attack, but also changes how you actually fight or how you look like in the first place. Probably this is not going to be included in the Steroid archetype, we already have the Stance System switch type. The Hero Shooter style will combine with Health (and sometimes DEF) steroid
- DOTA: Elder Dragon Form (Dragon Knight), Shapeshift (Lycan)
- OW: Primal Rage (Winston)
- P: Ancient Rage (Makoa)
Other HON entries are a little too deviating that they can't really count as the archetype Wish For Revenge (It affects HP Regen, that's like saying Huskar has a DEF/DMG Reduction), Primal Surge (using mana manipulation for quick self HP regen. It's a little unclear), Unbreakable (It just makes you untouchable, not reducing damage)
So, what are your thoughts on this? How do we separate and remove from this?
Edited by ChrisX
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Uhm, guys. I hate to be a bringer of bad news. But... Heroes of Newerth is gonna close down mid 2022
. RIP, it was a long ride even if I never played it that intently.
.... Should we do something about the table format?
And whoever is playing HON, now's your time to add more into this analysis page!
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I'm just going to put in some more weapons that has been included in the genre, but I do not know their other common trait aside of 'wielding this weapon'. Or they don't have enough members. Anyone that can mention similar characters or connecting themes can also put in their input via reply.
- Rapiers
- Club/Maces
- Crescent Tonfa: A unique case in MOBA that based on the original Defense of the Ancients, there's always a dual crescent blade wielded like a tonfa based on the Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter (the original basis of Anti-Mage). So it better be that, not just normal tonfa.
- Bare Fists or Martial Arts
- 1. Too rare to categorize. Pretty much exclusive to fencing-based heroes.
- 2. Who's Smite? I assume you meant Leoric. Some potential here, since heroes with giant maces are likely to have low attack speed but high attack damage. That's a solid connective thread.
- 3. Too rare. I'll also note that Illidan isn't using tonfas, but rather twin warglaives (basically big double-sided swords) with a grip between the blades rather than off the sides, so that's not even an example.
- 4. It should noted under a Bare-Fisted Monk-type example rather than just unarmed combat. There's a lot more commonality between the playstyles of Lee Sin and Kharazim than there is with Udyr - namely being a Fragile Speedster and dashing around. That's a strong connection.
- 1. And that's the thing. Does Heroes of Newerth has a fencer? I'm not sure fencers exist in Smite and Heroes of the Storm, and I know that at least Mobile Legends Bang Bang has Lancelot for this (but we don't list that game. Yet.) But it looks like there's only 2 fencers amongst the big games.
- 2. Yeah. My bad. I mean Leoric. Unfortunately, 'low attack speed high damage' thing doesn't seem to require maces. I mean, Slardar and Hercules aren't bound with attack speed decrease. And it's been awhile I played HOTS so I forgot if Leoric has that. However... 'low ASPD high damage' has been used by Tiny, and Smite's Atlas fit the bill, but they don't use maces. But again, it doesn't require maces.
- The one thing maces has are stuns or slows, but that seems to make them too similar to the Hammer users. So... 'sibling' archetypes?
- 3. Agreed fully.
- 4. Hmm, yes... Marci is quite mobile that she's jumping around places as long as there's an object (enemy) nearby. Also does Ravana share the same commonality you mentioned on Lee Sin and Kharazim?
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Additionally, I think the Healing Hero category needs a rework. Since healing is pretty common in MOBA, not everyone can be that. I think we need to draw the line where the hero in question is an example of Crippling Overspecialization: They focus on healing so much that they damage their own other capabilities.
How do you separate that amongst the heroes?
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I agree with shifting it to a Crippling Overspecialization section for healers, which is what the HotS and Awesomenauts entries already do.
Okay, so what are the requirements to know? My ideas...
- Keep it that they're not solo heroes and feel like functioning better as a team hero.
- Has more heal/buff/debuff skills than damaging ones. Even if there is damage skills, they're like... just 1 out of many?
Ones that comes to mind to these over-speccing are Omniknight, Soraka, Lt. Morales (I'm not sure which ones are the overspecialized healers in Smite, even Aphrodite has several ways of damage.)
To anyone who may read this. While editing, if you add a label note, make sure it doesn't have the exact words as another note because the coding of the page will recognise it as such and only open the first one.
Okay, guys. I'm... sorry if I get around doing too much on this analysis page and archetypes. But I've archived the archetypes into a Google Sheet. Right here.
As you can see, there are new archetypes, and there are PICTURES (Skill/Item archetypes coming soon later, I still need to decide whether to use the character pictures OR the skill pictures, which would be a lot of work). Pictures would be impossible for TV Tropes so I'm not proposing to add those here...
However! There are new titles, some with actual pages (Onmyouji Arena, Gigantic), some without pages (Heroes Evolved, Legend of Ace). Should I expand the tables again?
If yes, then perhaps the table would look like this...
(HOK will have to be separated from AOV in order to make sure the table can be squared. Otherwise, we'll have a prime number of titles (19 or 23 if you count the Hero Shooter games))
Well, shall I proceed?
Edited by ChrisX