Have a question about how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help.
It's not for everything, though. For a list of all the resources for your questions, click here. You can also go to this Directory thread
for ongoing cleanup projects.
More examples, from Trivia.One More Day:
"* Running the Asylum: The story was based off of a desire to return Peter to his single lifestyle and supported by fellow Marvel writers and others who remembered the character from The '70s and The '80s and so on. Most notably, Roger Stern who wrote the character in the long gap (AMS #201-240) when MJ was Put on a Bus for the longest time, returned to writing on Spider-Man after the marriage had broken up, after famously turning down the chance to write on the title because of his opposition to the marriage, claiming that he finally felt he recognized the Peter he knewnote . An opinion echoed by others. Even Gerry Conway, the writer who did the most to make Mary Jane a prominent character and Peter's love interest insists that Spider-Man is an essentially adolescent character who should not be married in the regular continuity, either to her or anyone else and admitted that he killed Gwen Stacy to prevent Peter from hitching with his first love."
- JMS said later that he respected Quesada and accepted that Spider-Man is Marvel's baby and as EIC it was Quesada's call on how to handle the IP even if he as a writer disagreed with that direction. In other words JMS disagreed with the idea of erasing the marriage and felt that a married Spider-Man worked and could continue and thrive but nonetheless he accepted that wasn't his call and he felt he could still write a good satisfying story under the circumstances. He saw One More Day as an stopping off point for his run and hoped to end it with a good enough clean slate that still maintained most of the story points from his run going forward (namely Aunt May knowing Peter's identity). He also disagreed with the logistics of Mephisto and Quesada's "It's magic we don't have to explain it" and the fact that the retcon virtually negated his entire run and the character development he had written. JMS finally disagreed with the idea that it was MJ rather than Peter who made the deal feeling it was too cowardly on Peter's part to pass the buck to his wife, and that it was out-of-character for him not to take the responsibility and guilt for this action.
- A few years later it was found out that JMS really did hate the OMD retcon, and got into a rather public spat with creators of Marvel in late 2011 about it, stating that he felt that Quesada exploited the goodwill and favor that had generated between them to write a story that would go down as one of comics' all-time great turkeys, which falls in his CV, while also sullying the work that he had done on Spider-Man, pointing out that the Post-OMD continuity is essentially a Cosmic Retcon for Spider-Man that rewrites years of continuity and fundamentally changes the nature of the stories that Quesada and other claims still happened but only with a Peter who lived with MJ and Harry who was still alive throughout the entire thing but doing nothing of importance."
"Executive Meddling: According to Dan Slott in a series of CBR posts, the decision to end the marriage was something demanded by Marvel's executives, just a few years after the initial widely successful event of "The Wedding", and was something mandated to earlier editors and EIC of Spider-Man titles, and that it was a corporate decision to protect Spider-Man as a company mascot and brand, rather than merely Quesada's or other writer's desire to settle old fan grudges. While Quesada obviously believed in the decision and has no regrets over it, he wasn't the first editor tasked with ending the marriage note , and in all likelihood it would have happened under the hands of another editor anyway."
"What Could Have Been: What Could Have Been: According to Quesada, JMS wrote the point where the new timeline diverged from the old one as be Harry getting into rehab back in the early 1970's, thereby affecting relationships and meaning Gwen Stacy never died. Quesada was all for this but other Marvel's writers collectively nixed it beforehand because such changes would affect the entire Marvel universe and invalidate nearly forty years of canon, and because many of them wanted Gwen Stacy to stay dead to respect what they saw as a classic story. JMS pointed out that by having Harry Osborn alive anyway and by saying the marriage didn't happen and that Peter and MJ were living together, and according to Quesada Baby May never happened, they have effectively rewritten 20 years of continuity anyway but without any logistical grounding and explanation, and essentially OMD, contrary to Quesada's claims and insistence, is very much a Crisis-style reboot for Spider-Man no matter what Quesada and writers insist and according to him, he had written a detailed timeline across weeks that would have still largely kept the stories but with small details adjusted and in any case Quesada wrote another comic One Moment in Time to explain how his reboot worked anyway."
Also this on ComicBook.One More Day.
"* Hate Fic: Quesada's hatred for the "The Wedding!" (Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21) becomes clear when you realize that the final panel toasting to the Brand New Day (basically a bunch of hands carrying glasses raised high) is a snide inversion and swipe of a panel image in Annual where Peter, Harry, and Flash raise a toast in celebration to Peter's nuptials (three hands raising glasses above). The emotional context when you compare both (Flash Thompson raises the toast after cheering and clearing up Peter's second-thoughts and insist he go ahead with getting married, insisting that it's the best thing that will happen to him) becomes reused for raise a toast to a Brand New Day celebrating the single life according to Quesada."
Edited by lalalei2001 The Protomen enhanced my life.
They have also removed Vindicated by History on the Clone Saga on the grounds that "All people are saying is that some of it aren't bad, and Ben Reilly and Kaine have never been in a single media adaptation." And added a huge paragraph on Author's Saving Throw that ends with " Glenn Greenberg who wrote the "Life of Reilly" expressed frustration at Conway for as he put it, going "to great lengths to undo his own stories" plainly ignoring the memo that Conway felt that clones and the Jackal were both bad ideas."
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.TheCloneSaga
I don't think anything is inherently wrong with them, but if there are entries you have issue with, I'd pull them to discussion. Definitely have concerns about the Misaimed Fandom because the Intended Audience Reaction thing is... unclear, given other than a couple people on the street, the majority of Emo Peter's In-Universe reaction was positive, not narm-ful.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Regarding the definition of Vindicated by History, does the work in question have to retroactively be considered a classic, per say? Or can it simply refer to anything where its reputation improves over time?
Edited by SunsetWarrior
^ Reception has to improve to at least Cult Classic status.
Take the video game EarthBound. It bombed on its original Super Nintendo release, but became a Cult Classic later thanks to Super Smash Bros. on the Nintendo 64.
A lot of the examples have long-run on sentences or notes that make them even longer, tend to go into the opinions of other writers, which are irrelevant to the storyline being discussed (why does Roger Stern's opinion on the marriage matter for One More Day if he didn't work on the story?), or deal with opinions shared by a minority of fans.
"JMS pointed out that by having Harry Osborn alive anyway and by saying the marriage didn't happen and that Peter and MJ were living together, and according to Quesada Baby May never happened, they have effectively rewritten 20 years of continuity anyway but without any logistical grounding and explanation, and essentially OMD, contrary to Quesada's claims and insistence, is very much a Crisis-style reboot for Spider-Man no matter what Quesada and writers insist and according to him, he had written a detailed timeline across weeks that would have still largely kept the stories but with small details adjusted and in any case Quesada wrote another comic One Moment in Time to explain how his reboot worked anyway" is all one sentence and could be excised without losing the point of the entry.
Edited by lalalei2001 The Protomen enhanced my life.
I have noted the a lot of Jacks edits are assumption and theories. There is no solid proof. They assume that OMD would have happened anyway. It also assumes that the Clone Saga has been vindicated without actual proof of this considering the whole thing has consistently made top list of worst Spiderman storylines.
https://screenrant.com/worst-spider-man-stories-comics-ever-all-time/
https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/138361-the-12-dumbest-spider-man-stories-ever-besides-the-clone-saga/
https://www.toplessrobot.com/2008/11/the_12_dumbest_spiderman_stories_ever_besides_the.php
In order to be vindicated the series has to be vindicated by its fans. However over a decade after its event its still used as a punchline.
Also, the Sandman only shot Uncle Ben because he was startled by his accomplice, so Ben still wouldn't have died if Peter stopped the carjacker.
Keet cleanup
At one point I told him that he was adding an alleged "audience reaction" that didn't actually exist, and asked him to prove it. His defense was that "YMMV do not need references". Which is right, but also a loophole. So what should I do?
Ultimate Secret Wars
Kick it to a mod, while YMMV is flexiable its actually have to have a basis. Its cant just be something a troper decides is the truth and the whole truth. Basically you cant just make stuff up just to justify your rant.
Have you tried discussing it with him? He seems to be reasonable, at least judging from his edits on main (non-YMMV) MCU pages and posts on the forums.
I have no opinion on Spider-Man stuff since I haven't watched the "old" movies. So I can't comment on the examples themselves.
Edited by Asherinka
Mods could we get a decision here. Hes spread this bias throighout the entire site which is an issue.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
What parts of the entire site?
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Bump?
The Protomen enhanced my life.
I actually believe that Revolutionary Jack is a good trooper who just needs to be a little less bias, but still remain informative. Please do not have him blocked or suspended. I believe that some of the things he put were accurate, particularly They Changed It, Now It Sucks! in SM 3.
Edited by Thetropemaster101
Has anyone actually tried talking to this troper, aside from the one PM regarding YMMV?
As I've written above, I have never clashed over edits with him, even when I removed some edits he's done in the "main" namespace entirely. You can also check some of his forum posts.
Can't comment on this particular issue though - I hardly ever edit YMMV pages and I haven't watched those movies.
Edited by Asherinka
Revolutionary_Jack has been adding a lot of entries to Spider-Man YMMV pages that don't have a general fandom consensus to be on the YMMV page, such as Steve Ditko's Gwen Stacy being a Love to Hate character and modern readers preferring her to any other version of Gwen. Entries that are legit are very long-winded and nattery, and they also deleted a Spider-Man 3 Vindicated by History example due to the film "not being a classic" even though its reputation has improved post-ASM 2 and the Editor's Cut salvaging a lot of the movie. The following examples are just from the Spider-Man 3 YMMV page but similar examples can be found on other Spider-Man pages, including main, subpage, and trivia pages.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/el.php?findfor=Revolutionary_Jack
"* Misaimed Fandom:
"* They Changed It, Now It Sucks!:
- A big sticking point for some fans, even if the character on the whole was praised, was the Retcon that made Sandman into Uncle Ben's killer. It's not the first time a superhero film did this (Tim Burton's Batman did the same to Joker, and it was criticized even then by many reviewersnote ) but many audiences felt it drastically undercut and ruined Peter's origin from Spider-Man (since if the burglar Peter specifically didn't let escape kill Uncle Ben, and it was his getaway partner who did it in panic, then that means that Peter isn't actually responsible for his Uncle's death and his entire guilt was misplaced, which ruins the crucial theme from his story). Many also saw it as an inability for Raimi and Sony to create a nemesis who wasn't a free agent unconnected to Peter's story and life simply so that they could rehash simple beats. A tendency at Sony Pictures which continued in The Amazing Spider-Man Series and which the hacked Sony emails had one of Marvel's own executives call them out on.
- As a number of fans note, the Symbiote was never Spider-Man's Superpowered Evil Side nor did it turn him into evil, and definitely ''not'' emo. The original Symbiote was a sentient suit that liked Spider-Man and became a case of a Stalker with a Crush. It ended up taking Peter out as Spider-Man while in his sleep, and Peter worried about gaps and lack of control parted ways with it, which made the Symbiote a crazy jealous ex, who saw new host Eddie Brock as "sloppy seconds". The change in dynamics to a more simplistic Jekyll and Hyde story annoyed many for cheapening a great concept, as well as creating frustrating drama since Peter acts like a jerk to his loved ones but since it's not really his fault, all his actions can be blamed on Gollum Made Me Do It (which as many note was a beat that applied to the villain of Spider-Man and something which Peter didn't entirely accept there)."
Edited by lalalei2001