Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Not sure about Surtur, given that he's basically an elemental force of destruction. Killing and enslaving things is basically what he does.

Actually, I'm wondering about that in the case of Rakan Dakharan, a brutal Yazan Gable expy who's shown cheerfully shooting up civilian transports during the Dublin colony drop. In some ways, he's nastier than the guy he draws from - Yazan, after all, never killed any civilians to the best of my recollection.

edited 11th Aug '12 2:38:52 AM by Iaculus

Okay, as I see we are now discussing mostly villains from Video Games, so I will bring one more example; the next subpage.

Mario subpage. Most villains are from Paper Mario series. I have played the first one only though, and the examples seem to be from the second and third. Therefore, I am not familliar with Shadow Queen, Dimentio, Grodus or Grubba but based on the description, the Shadow Queen seems like a clear example while Dimentio seems less monstrous, Grodus seems like a standard villain and Grubba... I feel that he is not heinous enough.

The Shroobs from Mario And Luigi Partners In Time are group of villains, so they are automatically out of the list.

edited 11th Aug '12 1:59:51 PM by Krystoff

RE: Rakan Dakharan

I confess that I haven't seen much of ZZ. If he's as bad as you say, do a write-up for him here. I'm the one who's been more or less handling the Gundam examples, so I'd be interested to see it.

I'm starting to notice a trend with the Gundam examples. A majority of the franchise's CMs seem to draw on one of two characters—Gihren Zabi for political and military leaders (Azrael, Djibril, Colonel Killing, Ribbons to a lesser degree), and Yazan Gable for footsoldiers (Ali, Decil, possibly this Dakharan guy).

EDIT: Regarding Dakharan vs Yazan: Yazan doesn't kill any civillians, but that's because he doesn't think there's any challenge in it. Not really a moral difference.

edited 11th Aug '12 3:10:20 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Okay, just making one final call before acting on the feedback I got, does anyone have anything more to add on the examples I brought up in this post?

Not sure about many of these Video Games examples, but I think some ppl cleared it up for you on this thread who qualifies.

And while you're at if(fixing the examples you mentioned) I'd also recommend cutting the League Of Legends examples, all of them. They are all Player Characters and do not do anything heinous onscreen, most of this being an Informed Attribute and can be arguably be seen as played for laughs since the plot never really appears in a Lo L game.

edited 11th Aug '12 7:28:45 PM by xie323

I'll post my write-up of the Hag on here tomorrow. If any other troper has objections with her inclusion, please let me know. I don't know what happens when two tropers object with a current character's inclusion and one approves, so any votes would be helpful.

Seeing as the Firebird Trilogy was mentioned earlier with Dru Polar, I'll bring up that the Shuhr are mentioned on the Complete Monster Literature page. I thought they were a society though, so doesn't that mean they're disqualified?

edited 11th Aug '12 9:07:50 PM by OccasionalExister

Yeah, they are a society, and yeah, that does mean they're disqualified. Not to mention that it's really only the upper level that's monstrous, so they'd be disqualified anyway. I'd already removed them from the YMMV page, but I forgot to check the CM page.

Also, are there any further thoughts on Polar ([1], [2]), or can I go ahead and add him?

Regarding Dakharan vs Yazan: Yazan doesn't kill any civillians, but that's because he doesn't think there's any challenge in it. Not really a moral difference.

Oh, I realise that, but in some ways, it makes him slightly less of a menace. Having fun killing enemy soldiers is a notch down from having fun killing civilians on the heinousness scale because... well, it's a war. The soldiers are trying to kill you back.

• Rakan Dakharan of Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ is much like Yazan Gable from the previous series - a brutal, nigh-unkillable Blood Knight with a tenuous grasp of personal loyalty. Unlike Yazan, though, even civilians aren't safe from him. This is best demonstrated in Episode 35, where he cheerfully guns down hospital ships and evacuation craft fleeing the Dublin Colony Drop, even killing off longtime Gundam veteran Hayato Kobayashi when he tries to stop him.

I'm not very familiar with the Paper Mario games, but from what I've seen of Dimentio's scenes the guy seems to be played too lightheartedly to be a CM. Mentions of him diminish mentions of the CM label in the context of Nintendo characters IMO.

What are the thoughts on the example I brought up on 2208? Arkillo from the Green Lantern comics, and Killer Frost and Devil Ray from the DCAU.

Arkillo Is brutal and kills the new recruits, but he has good qualities, he's loyal to sinestro, and he does have a pet the dog moment with Saint Walker.

Devil Ray is a Psycho for Hire, but the example states that his conversation with wonder woman cements his CM status, that conversation falls under Offscreen Villainy, as he just said He's killed a lot of people. His discussion with Wonder Woman implies some of a live by the sword, die by the sword attitude, as he tells her that if she wants revenge for him killing someone she can just kill him (I wouldn't call him a Proud Warrior Race Guy though).

Killer Frost has more onscreen murders, but does she get past the heinous standard, where such characters as the Joker, Doctor Destiny and Darkseid lie.

I'm voting to cut all of them.

I actually thought Dimentio from Super Paper Mario was the only sure fire example of a CM in the Mario series, seeing as he's an expy of Kefka Palazzo: Monster Clown, Starscream, and, by the end of the game, a hybrid of A God Am I and an Omnicidal Maniac who plans on wiping out all the multiverses to recreate them in his image. Also, every other villain in the game is an Antivillain: Count Bleck is a Woobie Destroyerof Worlds and the three other members of his Five Bad Band are True Companions. In the end all of them are redeemed through love or perform heelface turns. Dimentio is the only member of the villains without any sympathetic qualities, who is never redeemed and who's only motive is Forthe Evulz. Plus, since Mario is a relatively light series, Dimentio's actions come off as more heinous than they would in other games.

EDIT:Devil Ray I'm okay with cutting because, if I remember right, he only killed one person. Killer Frost, not so much since her motive is that she likes killing and she does actually commit multiple murders onscreen, which most cartoon villains don't get away with.

I would, however, like to cut Ferris Boyle, the Corrupt Corporate Executive from Batmanthe Animated Series. He was the one who caused Mr. Freeze to become a Woobie Destroyerof Worlds, causing the lab accident that forces him to live in subzero temperatures and nearly killing Freeze's wife, Nora. Boyle did try to pull the plug on Nora, which would most likely kill her, but Nora survived and the lab accident he caused was unintentional. Meaning he has a body count of zero.

edited 12th Aug '12 11:10:38 AM by OccasionalExister

@2308

Well, it certainly sounds like he counts. Yazan's expies tend to be nasty pieces of work. If no one has any objections I'll add it to the Gundam subpage.

EDIT: I read up Dahkaran's page on the Gundam Wiki and made some modifications to your original post, so as to better encapsulate the character. Since you've actually seen him in action, tell me if this still sounds alright.

"The original show, in the meantime, has Axis-Zeon Ace Pilot Rakan Dahkaran. An expy of Zeta's Yazan Gable, Rakan is, like his inspiration, a brutal, nigh-unkillable Blood Knight with a tenuous grasp of personal loyalty, albeit with some actual command talent thrown in. Cold-blooded and willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done, Rakan is not above harming civilians (something that Yazan, a thrill-killer, generally avoided). This is best demonstrated in Episode 35, where he cheerfully guns down hospital ships and evacuation craft fleeing the Dublin Colony Drop, even killing off longtime Gundam veteran Hayato Kobayashi when he tries to stop him."

Is it still accurate?

edited 12th Aug '12 2:18:36 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Sounds about right. He's a pretty impassive, icy dude, but he still loves his job.

It has gone up as follows:

"The original show, in the meantime, has Axis-Zeon Ace Pilot Rakan Dahkaran. An expy of Zeta's Yazan Gable, Rakan is, like his inspiration, a brutal, nigh-unkillable Blood Knight with a tenuous grasp of personal loyalty, albeit with some actual command talent thrown in. Cold-blooded and willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done, Rakan is not above harming civilians (something that Yazan, a thrill-killer, generally avoided). This is best demonstrated in Episode 35, where he impassively guns down hospital ships and evacuation craft fleeing the Dublin Colony Drop, in order to make sure that nobody escapes the blast radius. He kills off longtime Gundam veteran Hayato Kobayashi when the latter tries to stop him, and following his defection from Haman's forces willingly kills many of his old comrades, including Anti-Villain Mashmyre Cello before being stopped by Judau."

I thought that final betrayal should be emphasised, lest the Colony Drop come off as Just Following Orders. If you can think of anything else he does that's worth noting, let me know.

I've also decided to better the entry for Ali Al-Saachez. The original entry is rather short, and is largely hyberbole about how he's the "reigning champion of Gundam villainy". Seriously, every new CM in the franchise has been called that at some point.

EDIT: Here's the new entry for Ali:

"Gundam 00's Ali Al-Saachez exists solely to make the world a much worse place. A self-admitted Psycho for Hire who flat out states that he's "the worst kind of person there is," Ali will do anything if the pay is right. He raised an army of Child Soldiers while in Krugis, convincing them that every act of terrorism they committed, (including murdering their own parents) was being done in the name of God—a God that Ali does not believe in; he was in it for the money. During the course of the show he proceeds to kill off a sizeable number of named characters, including Lockon I and Kinue Crossroad, burn down an entire country, and aid an Ancient Conspiracy in a successful bid to Take Over the World. He dies while trying to backstab a man who had just spared his life. He is inordinately proud of his worst acts and brags about them whenever he has a captive audience ("See that kid? Somebody kidnapped him, raped his mind, and turned him into a child soldier." That someone, was me!"); it says a lot about his character that he actually finds empathy disgusting."

edited 12th Aug '12 3:14:13 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I don't think that part about "kills off a sizable amount of named characters" really belongs in there.

@2311: Ferris Boyle was a rotten bastard, but you're right, despite his best efforts, he couldn't kill anyone. I think he was on the list because he has no good qualities. I agree, he fails the heinous standard and he should be cut. (Also, the example has the sinkhole problem with naming Mark Hamill as his voice actor and comparing him to the joker, which is irrelevent).

Also, Who was the guy that Devil Ray killed? Was it the monastery guard, because I believe that the monks all came back to life when the orb was released (Even the ones killed by other means it seems, like the master), and he shot a bunch of those monks as well. (I'm just asking, I'm not trying to argue intent to kill and failing vs. intent and succeeding).

edited 12th Aug '12 5:53:12 PM by DrPsyche

I was referring to Deadman's Master, I forgot he and all his monks got better.

Thanks for the clarification

I deleted the arguable Syndrome from the incredibles YMMV.

Removed the line about nominal importance from Ali's write-up; it now just says that he kills off a sizeable number of characters.

It has been a bit since I watched any runthroughs of Resident Evil games; I misremembered Wesker's interactions with Birkin. Okay, let's try this again:

• Albert Wesker is at least partially responsible for each individual problem in the entire series. He has a vicious combination of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder as well as eliminating partners that no longer serve his needs. This includes the S.T.A.R.S. Alpha Team in the first game (used as "test subjects"), Ozwell E. Spencer in the fifth game (killing Spencer and allowing Wesker to brainwash Jill Valentine), and finally the one woman who loved him, Excella Gionne (using the deadly Ouroboros virus on her so she could slow down Wesker's pursuers). All of this, plus his willingness to create biological weapons of mass destruction, was simply to become God of a world of bio-engineered monsters of his creation, killing off over 90% of life on Earth in the process.

For other examples I haven't weighed in on...

Cousin Eddie from Jimmy Neutron - wait, all he does is try to ruin a wedding? Easy cut.

Earth Federation from Gundam ZZ - As others have said, no groups. Cut.

Surtur from Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes - Well, the dividing line for me on whether a character is merely a Generic Doomsday Villain or a Complete Monster is if they get enough characterization for me to start seeing major psychological issues. So I'd need to hear more about that for the character.

The Queen Shroob from Mario And Luigi Partners In Time might still qualify (she was the one who led the Shroobs), but I'd have to go over things in more depth before making a judgment.

Dimentio from Paper Mario - I personally would keep him, since we are talking about someone who deliberately manipulated a grieving widower to cause The End of the World as We Know It. I wouldn't quite call him an Expy of Kefka Palazzo, but he's admittedly not that far off.

Yazan in Gundam - You know, even if it's some ridiculous "fairness/challenge of the hunt" reason for not taking part in mass murder, it is still some flavor of standard of behavior. I'm inclined to leave off such examples myself.

Arkillo sounds like another 99% Monster. I'm fine with that cut.

Devil Ray sounds like he doesn't do much on-camera. I would be fine letting someone of the belief "live by the sword, die by the sword" in, but they'd have to actually do something first. Fine with cutting.

Killer Frost... I can't remember what she actually did on-camera. What was her (at least attempted) rap sheet on-screen?

Ferris Boyle - Yeah, he can be cut. Even if you restrict it to just Batman The Animated Series, he's just greedy, not homicidal. Would anyone say he's even as bad as The Joker? Or the Sewer King? Hell, no.

@2312 - I'd leave off the "even killing Hayato Kobayashi" part - after killing off all of the civilians like that, the murder of one opposing fighter, even if it is one of the main characters, is small potatoes.

I hate to sound like a flip-flopper but now that I thought it over, Dr. Psyche is right. Killer Frost probably doesn’t count. Her motivation in committing crimes is that she likes killing people, but the only people she kills throughout the series are other villains. She kills Morgan Edge in the Secret Society despite having no orders/reason to do so, and she kills the super villains she formerly sided with in the Legion of Doom schism to get in Lex’s good graces, but I can’t remember her actually killing an innocent person in the series. She may have killed the agents she was fighting in the episode “To Another Shore” but that’s likely a case of Harmless Freezing. Overall, despite her bloodthirsty demeanor, she really doesn’t do that much.

Also, Warren “Fox” Lawford doesn’t seem like he counts either. His attempt to murder his girlfriend was a Moral Event Horizon, but I don’t think that alone can qualify him for the trope.

EDIT: Also, here's my proposed rewrite of the Hag:

• The Hag, Gamall, from Thief 3, is a legendary serial killer and murderer of children. Gamall has been killing for centuries, ripping the skin off her victims and wearing them as her own to maintain her immortality. This also allows her to take the forms of her victims. A former member of the Keepers, Gamall desires to destroy the organization as well as to learn all of its secrets on glyph magic. In order to re-infiltrate the Keepers and gain their knowledge, Gamall murders a little girl named Lauryl to take her appearance. Once inside, she studies under Interpreter Caduca, eventually murdering the woman so she could be promoted to her teacher’s position. When Gamall’s glamour fails in front of the Keepers, she slaughters several of them in a rage, despite most of them fleeing from her. She later kills and steals the skin of Garret’s long-time friend Artemus and then strangles First Keeper Orland to death after the latter tries to redeem himself. Unlike the previous Big Bads of the series, who were well-intentioned extremists, Gamall acts purely out of self-interest, to make herself invulnerable.

EDIT: Actually, the DCAU Complete Monster page looks like a mess all over, some examples are too big and unweildy while others are lacking specifics. Would it be alright if I made a Sandbox with suggested rewrites for the page's entries?

edited 13th Aug '12 6:28:34 PM by OccasionalExister

I'm all for cutting Boyle, Killer Frost, and a large number of the DCAU examples. The only ones I can really think of that count are The Joker, Darkseid, Mongul, and arguably, Brainiac. There might well be others, but they really aren't registering in my head.

@ 32 Footsteps

Complete Monster is as much about why you do things as much as the things you do. Yazan opts out for reasons that have nothing to do with morality or fairness and everything to do with his status as an adrenaline junkie. That's not what I'd call a redeeming feature, or a failing of the heinous standard, particularly given his willingness to kill, in his own words, "women and children", turn on his superiors, and throw away those working for him. He's one of the characters that fans of the franchise instantly turn to if you mention irredeemable psycho, and while I'm normally not one to jump on a bandwagon it is, in this case, justified.

Regarding Rakan, I'm inclined to leave in the line about Hayato if only because ZZ has a lot of very silly villains, who are there purely for comic relief. Noting that he manages to kill not only a named character, but a veteran of two previous series' worth of fighting shows that Rakan is not one of those comedic villains.

edited 13th Aug '12 6:59:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

The Darkseid entry needs to be fixed, it felt like a $*(*)#$ character sheet!

Some examples from the YMMV Warcraft page:

• Apparently, the curse that comes with wielding the blade Frostmourne ultimately turns a person into this. As shown by the below quote:

This is an archetype/curse, not a person.

• Chargla Razorflank sells her own people to the Scourge.

This was already cut from the monster video games page.

• Worst of all are the Old Gods. They have caused quite a few atrocities in Azeroth's history (they corrupted Deathwing and in turn are indirectly responsible for all of his crimes, and in turn the Nexus War), and seem to be intent on destroying the world solely to create chaos.

They seem to be incomprehensible Eldritch Abominations, and did nothing heinous onscreen. I vote for cut.

• Sargeras and Archimonde are both heartless lunatics who love killing things and who have destroyed countless worlds.

Again, the former has a Cry for the Devil Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds backstory and the latter is a Generic Doomsday Villain that has already been cut from the Video Games CM page.

• Depending on how you view him Gallywix may qualify. And for good reason, he is a callous Jerkass whose crimes include: selling the player and others into slavery after he made them give up their life savings, leaving the goblins behind to take over Azshara, enslaving the goblins in a mine called the Gallywix Reeducation Cavern, and employing abusive hobgoblin slavemasters. He was even attempted at a last-ditch attempt to kill Thrall (right before he was re-appointed leader). Constantly taunting you in the second half of the starting experience doesn't help matters either. There's even a Goblin NPC who calls him a monster.

Blue-and-Orange Morality aside(many have concluded in my Warcraft fourm that he DOES not qualify due to this, and their interpretation of Goblin culture helped onto this) he does in his backstory apparently show a degree of love to his father, making a case for him being a 99% monster. Not to mention he's arguably played for laughs.

I am not sure about Kael'thas, when he joined the legion for the first time, he was an Well-Intentioned Extremist who wanted the Legion to help the Blood Elves, but his CM personality emerged after his first death and his transition into a wretched, who are generally insane Ax-Crazy. And he was reduced to a almost-mindless pawn of Kil'Jaeden, which means that this was a new personality that emerged only during patch 2.4.

And this from the Disney section:

• There are a few characters in Kim Possible who come pretty close to this. Monkey Fist becomes this in season 4 when he shows he's perfectly willing to kill and/or corrupt a baby and even makes a deal with a powerful and evil supernatural entity to do it. This is arguably Character Derailment and a source of debate among fans. Erik the Synthodrone after The Reveal in So the Drama. Finally, the Grand Finale brings us Warhok and Warmonga, a couple of powerful alien bullies willing to lay waste to an entire planet in retaliation for one human taking advantage of Warmonga's gullibility. They're also willing to kill a teenage girl and mount her on a wall as a trophy. These also happen to be the only villains to suffer karmic punishment: Monkey Fist is turned to stone after his Deal with the Devil goes awry, Erik gets bitten by Rufus and shuts down when his Syntho-goo leaks out, and Warhok and Warmonga get beat down by Mystical Monkey Powered Ron and actually die when he throws them at their own warship.

Messy and needs cleanup, and from what I heard the Grand Finale villains were from a brutal warrior race, so a degree of Blue-and-Orange Morality comes to play here to make them not qualify. The second example needs clarification.

I didn't watch this show so I can't judge through.

edited 13th Aug '12 8:49:35 PM by xie323

No Kim Possible villain counts. They're all played for laughs. The entire show is played for laughs.

Regarding the early comments on Yazan, something I forgot to include—he happily participates in Jamaican's colony drop, killing anyone who tries to stop it. So no, civilian casualties don't mean anything to him.

Erik the Synthodrone isn't played for laughs, but again, Blue and Orange Morality.