During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It would still stop him from qualifying in the dub (particularly given that Dark Marik, Dartz, and The Spirit of the Ring's goals are left largely untouched). Though even in the original Japanese I'd say he fails to measure up to them.
I think the Lotso entry on the Disney page should have it spoiler tags removed. Anyone else agree?
So, I think that we had enough votes to add Donaka Mark from Man Of Tai Chi. Here's my attempt at a write-up.
- Man of Tai Chi has Donaka Mark (Keanu Reeves), a corrupt businessman and violence afficionado who runs an underground fight ring, and sells his audience, not on the fights themselves, but on the chance to watch a good person cross the Moral Event Horizon by killing. When Chi-Tak, one of his fighters, refuses to kill his defeated opponent, Donaka enters the ring and personally breaks the neck of the loser. He then stabs Chi-Tak to death in the locker room, as his refusal to murder makes him a rat in Donaka's eyes. Discovering Tai-Chi specialist Tiger Chen, Donaka convinces the government to sell off his master's temple, to make Tiger desperate for money; he then offers him a job in his fight ring. Placing cameras throughout Tiger's home, Donaka gives his audience the opportunity to watch Tiger's mental disintegration as the fights take their toll on his psyche. When Tiger, driven to the brink, still refuses to kill mercenary Uri Romanoff, Donaka executes Uri. He sends Tiger into another fight, with an Indonesian fighter; when Tiger tries to back out, Donaka gives the Indonesian the kill order. He also sends assassins after Detective Sung Jinshi, when she closes in on his ring. Ultimately found out by the police, Donaka flees and leaves his men in the lurch, only to reappear at Tiger's temple and force him into a Duel to the Death, declaring "You owe me a life!" When Tiger is forced to kill him, Donaka displays only a sense of satisfaction at having made Tiger a murderer.
How's that look?
Great writeup there.
Anyone here see The Following with Kevin Bacon and James Purefoy? I'm considering doing a proposal for the Big Bad Joe Carroll.
Another issue I wanna bring up. From Magi (you like good manga? Why aren't you reading this?!) The YMMV page is awful
- Jamil. A flashback to his childhood shows him beating up slaves (mostly other children) with a dopey, childlike glee. Brrr.
- Fatima: He tries to feed the young Nadja to the hyenas because she was sick and he didn't want to waste resources to let her recover.
- Ryosai: He tries to start a war with the Kouga Clan just because its fun. He takes slaves, inflicts an mortal wound on the elder, and brags about killing the princess to trigger a full scale conflict between the Empire and the Clan.
- Al-Thamen: To them Dystopia Justifies the Means so they can Screw Destiny, regardless of the very real horrors that come with spreading black Rukh everywhere.
Now, to inform people of some background...
1. Al-Thamen is the evil organization that forms the main antagonists. The heroes are a trio of Alibaba an adventurer prince, Aladdin the child Magi and Morgiana their ex-slave girl friend. Al-Thamen is a huge organization, with many faceless operatives. A lot of its members are nasty, but only two rise to the requisite level of evil. Cut for being a group.
2. Ryosai is a flat out easy cut, he's a joke.
3. Jamil and Fatima I'm not entirely sure. They're low-rent bad guys from the series' beginning and slave-catchers and keepers. Jamil is a torturer who is said to be the best at breaking in slaves. Morgiana is at first his slave and we have flashbacks of his abuse of her, making her a broken slave. Fatima's most evil moment is trying to feed a sick little girl to a pack of Hyenas and forcing a captive Morgiana to watch. While this is relatively low-scale, they're also so low on the totem pole they don't have much to work with.
The most heinous villains...there are two who fit. The first is Judar, a Magi in the service of Al-Thamen. Judar is a twisted, Chaotic Evil mage who simply wants chaos and destruction. He does have a freudian excuse, but he uses it as a Wounded Gazelle Gambit. Basically, he laughs off the idea he even cares about it in no uncertain terms. Erivale can probably elaborate on his deeds.
The second is Empress Gyokuen, the empress of the Kou Empire or Fantasy Counterpart Culture China. Gyokuen married the first Emperor...and killed him. Then married his brother when he became Emperor and had several children. She engineered the murders of her sons in a fire. Her youngest son, Hakuryu survived and asked Gyokuen if it was true she was behind it. Gyokuen said sweetly "what would you do if it was true?" and told Hakuryu to essentially sit down and shut up. She later murders her second husband and forges a will to take the throne herself, where she increases the Kou's Empire's militant imperialism and other nasty deeds. She also tried to summon the 'father' of Al-Thamen, a hideous demonic being that would destroy entire nations.
Gyokuen and Judar have the highest attempted bodycount and have the powers and nastiness to hack it. Judar is an Omnicidal Maniac while Gyokuen is a vain, callous tyrant. Added to that, she's also a Magi herself, and one far older than Judar.
edited 13th Dec '13 10:00:10 PM by Lightysnake
Avatar by Leafsnake
Donaka looks good.
cut Ryosai the organization and Fatima, as for Jamil, he really looks small potatoes, aside from Fatima does he torture anyone else onscreen?
A few things about Flatline in the Transformers page. Looking back, Flatline doesn't do much in his appearances. He has a lot of Offstage Villainy, with all of his other experiments not being seen, and while he tried to kill Arcee and her sisters, her sisters were already dead (Shockwave and Starscream had killed them), and he was just recycling them. His stand out crime is messing with Skids and Mudflap (who may be children, in this continuity, it was more definite in the titan comics) heads and giving them brain damage. He doesn't stand out very much from the average Decepticon, his commander Thundercracker even sanctioned all of his experiments as did high Command because they needed more sentient soldiers, thus reprogramming people, or killing them for good measure was commonplace.
Finally theres the part about him using Baby-transformers for his experiments, this was my fault, sorry, I misread some stuff. In transformers there are these things called protoforms, which mean three different things in this case: 1 hatchlings, young underdeveloped transformers who are basically infants (him caring for them was more Fanservice than any big mysterious connection) 2 raw materials, they're dummy bodies with lots of components which are used to create life, and are non-sentient (see Animated or Prime for examples like this, and they do fit in with what Flatline was trying to accomplish more than the other examples) and 3 transformers without a vehicle mode.
Flatline has little regard for life and tries to kill the Autobots, common among Decepticons, and has too much Offstage Villainy.
edited 14th Dec '13 12:44:55 AM by DrPsyche
Besides Morgiana, you mean? Yeah. Jamil is seen torturing other slaves.
he's the one I'm most unsure of due to how small-time he and Fatima are. They're godawful people, though.
edited 14th Dec '13 1:04:33 AM by Lightysnake
Foreign Troper
@ 19972 I also voted against Todd.
edited 14th Dec '13 6:31:08 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Looks Like I was wrong. that makes 10 votes cut, 9 votes keep. If everyone else is fine with this than that means the Todd issue is settled.
edited 14th Dec '13 9:00:49 AM by VeryMelon
A day back on page 798 I proposed the character of Old Nick from Room as a Complete Monster. There was some discussion but seemed to be dropped. Was that a final verdict or can I bring it back up in discussion?
I wish there was more people who read the actual book to talk, but I'm at a tentative "yes". It seems silly to hold "at least he doesn't molest his kid" as a Pet the Dog moment.
As an aside, this is a little similar to the reasoning for my vote for Todd; the clinical sociopathy theory feels like it's taking too many steps into Fanon. If a creepy Lack of Empathy was enough to disqualify people, I don't think this trope would exist.
I think Old Nick definitely qualifies. He does many horrible things over the course of the book, and never shows the slightest hint of remorse. And remember everybody - it was Ma, not Nick, who made Jack stay in the closet. Nick didn't seem to much care if Jack saw or not.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
@Ambar Sonof Deshar
Remove the actor's name. It really doesn't add anything.
Eh, it doesn't really take anything away either. I think it's fine either way.
Crowley: While I voted for Todd, I think a difference is that the show seems to take effort to show him as a more realistic version of a dim-witted sociopath.
Anyways, Old Nick now stands at 3-5 yeas (original proposer, Occasional Exister, myself, Crowley and Bluefish) and one nay. Barring any further discussion, he's probably going on the list.
Regarding all of the Magi entries, it's a no for me. If they are on the show's page, give them the heave-ho and explain why they are cut.
As for the entry for Donaka Mark, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
. Add it onto the film page.
I vote yay on Old Nick as well.
That's also the sticking point with Todd for me. He's a simpleton, and he needs someone to tell him what to do to be as bad as he can be. I get the distinct impression that if Uncle Jack weren't there, he'd be nowhere near as dangerous; probably just pull the legs off frogs or something. To use an analogy, Todd is the scalpel, Uncle Jack is the surgeon.
edited 14th Dec '13 10:02:56 AM by HamburgerTime
From what I've heard, that sounds like a pretty good analogy. Todd doesn't have a conscience but he's not actively malicious. He only does horrible things when others steer him in that direction.
edited 14th Dec '13 10:09:21 AM by OccasionalExister
Sanfran: does that include Gyokuen and Judar?
In my judgement of Todd, I will have to agree that he's more a like a tool to the people that use him. Give him a job and he will do it. Give him nothing and he'll instead just go around asking for something to do. He is a simpleton and and doesn't have much malice in him.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I Lied 
. I'll work on Sonic whenever, and there are also a few changes to Marvel I wanna make (introduction for Spidey and Punisher; moving X-Men to its own page.
- Torrence in the TV serial. He threatens to shoot Susan and Lucy unless Bill obeys him. He also orders Bill and Major Coker's murder and tells Jo that they were killed by Triffids before later attempting to seduce her. Twice. He makes the blind and nervous Hilda his unwilling slave and sexually harasses her, threatens to rape Jo and taunts Bill over the death of his parents.
An earlier version of this entry said "he helps a boy to safety on the plane".
Also, was it decided to keep SkekTek from The Dark Crystal?
edited 14th Dec '13 12:22:18 PM by TVRulezAgain
I think the Dark Crystal example could count, depending on whether the Skeksis are Made of Evil or not, considering they are the evil incarnation of the Ur Skeks.
Also there some entries in the Star Trek Expanded Universe that need expansion or cutting, like these examples from the Terok Nor trilogy:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/TerokNor
I assume Dukat is a cut, because this series is continuity with DS 9 and Dukat seemed to love his wife and his Bajoran mistresses.
Dukat is too complex at this stage in the game, IMO. Darhe'el and the other guy seem like better keeps. I don't quite believe Dukat loved his Bajoran mistress, though. In fact, when he was seducing Kira's mother, we have a bit where one Cardassian snidely comments he always sees Dukat pull that same exact move and scenario
Lizzid people!
Sorry to repeat this again, but on the YMMV.Goosebumps page, there are now five entries on the complete monster tag. I think we should be considering making a page for them since they have enough entries for one. What do you guys think?
edited 14th Dec '13 4:01:13 PM by AustinDR
