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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom from NYPD (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#194352: Dec 7th 2019 at 8:57:57 PM

Yes to the doc... probably worth noting that the guy's also established to have made a pattern feeding people to his crocs. We see a lotta skeletons down there and the narration points out as such when the scientist chucks Spectre down there.

My fellow is Field Marshall Offal, from issue 2's last story "The Gasmen and the Spectre?"

Who is Offal? What has he done?

An Offal human being and an "officer" who seems to believe he's stuck in the Second World War, Field Marshall Offal is planning to ransom the city for one billion dollars to fund his planned bloody "world revolution."

To do this, Offal initiates "Operation Green Cloud" and picks targets across the city to attack with phosgene (colorless, not-green gas). To demonstrate his group's mettle, Offal first picks an auto show and has it gassed, horribly killing everyone inside (including the kids—one little girl chokes to death on-page while gasping "I can't breathe, Mommy"). The ensuing massacre leaves fifty to sixty people dead, and Offal announces to the city that unless he's paid the billion dollars, he'll follow suit with another attack on the city to kill countless more people.

Naturally, from here the Spectre dispenses his beautiful justice—Offal retreats as the Spectre impales his men upon their own security equipment, and has the temerity to beg to be treated by the terms of the Geneva Convention, whereupon Spec turns his escape sub into a giant squid which gobbles the officer up.

Any mitigating factors?

Nope. Spectre standard, at least by the terms of the 70s stories and those specifically compiled in Wrath, follows as "petty crook, murderer, thief, mass-murdering terrorist." Offal sticks out like a sore thumb and he has about as many redeeming qualities as his name.

Conclusion?

Pretty Offal guy, huh? Aren't you getting Offal sick of these puns?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#194353: Dec 7th 2019 at 8:59:02 PM

And a yes to the field marshal

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#194354: Dec 7th 2019 at 9:08:01 PM

[tup] Scientist and Offal.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
SumDumNerd Current mood: sick of your shit from the Ever After Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
Current mood: sick of your shit
papyru30 The wifi here sucks from South Dakota for school Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom from NYPD (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
therealjackieboy Ultimate Moral Compass from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Ultimate Moral Compass
#194360: Dec 7th 2019 at 9:57:46 PM

[tup] Scientist Man and Offal

"No running in the halls!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#194361: Dec 7th 2019 at 9:58:13 PM

[tup]scientist and offal.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#194362: Dec 7th 2019 at 10:00:05 PM

Yay to Scientist and Offal.

RIP KissAnime.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#194363: Dec 7th 2019 at 10:05:44 PM

[tup] Stryker, Scientist and Offal (whom that squid made into literal offal)

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#194367: Dec 7th 2019 at 11:36:45 PM

[tdown] Stryker because I feel the X-2 story is a problem. It's not like with Comic!Liquid Snake (on whom I abstained) which was written by someone other than Kojima and added stuff that contradicted later games. As far as I can tell, this adaptation of X-Men Origins could fit in the main film continuity - well, as well as it can considering how hecked up the X-Men film continuity got.

G-Editor Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
VeryVileVillian (Apprentice)
#194369: Dec 7th 2019 at 11:52:19 PM

[up][up]The game is officially is not canon to the movies (as it is adaptation with several changes, as most video game adaptations are). Trying to say that it it (especially PS2 and Wii version and other versions, that aren't main one) will be stretching things REALLY far.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Dec 7th 2019 at 10:54:24 PM

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#194370: Dec 8th 2019 at 1:26:18 AM

[tup] Spectre duo.

You say issue 2? Because this has Offel from Adventure Comics#436.

EDIT: Answered my own question: They're reprinted stories.

Edited by ACW on Dec 8th 2019 at 4:49:10 AM

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#194371: Dec 8th 2019 at 3:03:27 AM

Got another DC one tonight...

What's the setting?

Aquaman, the once-ridiculed (and very unfairly) member of the Justice League of America, is King Orin of Atlantis, AKA Arthur Curry, the unquestioned ruler of the seas and all within its depths. Aquaman has a long and storied history that goes over beats like his marriage to Mora and Black Manta murdering his young son, so let's focus on the 2003 series that got its start with Rick Veitch. Orin is exiled from Atlantis, left upon the dry land to dessicate, all because of the sinister machinations of Minister Hagen the Heinous.

Who is Hagen? What has he done?

Part of a caste of sorcerous Atlanteans who came to power after the wicked rule of Gamemnae, Hagen weaseled his way into becoming the Prime Minister of New Atlantis, exploiting bad situations to attain power and allow him to conduct malicious, magical experiments on sea-life. Hagen takes over Atlantis in all but name by drugging Queen Mora into virtual catatonia, using her as a figurehead for his despotic rule. Hagen exiles Aquaman and leaves him to die on Traitor's Reef, purging all threats to him and ordering the assassination of Dolphin and her baby son Cerdian purely because of their connection to Aquaman.

Hagen's plan is simple; through his dark magic, Hagen continues to twist the native sealife into horrible abominations (and even fuses falsely-accused innocents with these beasts to transmute horrific super soldiers out of them), polluting the entire ocean with dark magic that mutates all it touches. Hagen schemes to turn all oceanic life into monsters to allow them to come forward onto the surface world and sweep it clean of all surface civilizations, exterminating all humanity to put Atlantis on the top. Monsters start overrunning boats and threatening coastlines before Aquaman manages to stop it, and Hagen's last spiteful action is to curse Mora with lungs to permanently separate her from the ocean she loves. Hagen only briefly returns imprisoned in issue #36 to mock Aquaman about Mora's curse...not long before a rampaging Spectre visits Atlantis and obliterates everyone in it, Hagen included.

Any mitigating factors?

Hagen does face some nasty competition in Aquaman, including in his own arc the malignant parasite known as the Thirst and old Black Manta (who was just recovering from that whole "Autism made me evil!" thing—it's even the source of the caption in for DC Universe's image), but Hagen's vile personal manipulation and intention to eradicate all surface life comfortably place him near the top of Aquaman's worst. No redeeming qualities in sight.

Conclusion?

Keeper.

Edited by Scraggle on Dec 8th 2019 at 3:51:20 AM

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#194372: Dec 8th 2019 at 3:07:27 AM

[tup] Hagen. I didn't realize Manta's murder of Aquaman's son was that relatively recently; dude debuted in 1967.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#194373: Dec 8th 2019 at 4:24:59 AM

[tup]Hagen

Hey that recommendation panned out. Character and trope pages can be a goldmine for potentials.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 8th 2019 at 4:25:51 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ErikModi Knight Bachelor from Where ComStar can't find me. Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Knight Bachelor
#194374: Dec 8th 2019 at 4:28:04 AM

My fourth.

What's the work?

BattleTech, a tabletop/video/miniature game/novel series (okay, there was also a cartoon, but we don't talk about that) in which giant stompy 'Mechs shoot each other in the face. (Skip the rest if you've heard this one.)

In the future, humanity has expanded out from Terra to colonize a swath of space known as the Inner Sphere. Five Great Houses hold most of the territory. If you picture the Inner Sphere as an analog clock (if anyone still remembers those), they are: From twelve o'clock to three o'clock, the Draconis Combine (House Kurita), from three o'clock to about five-thirty the Federated Suns (House Davion), from about five-thirty to about six-thirty the Capellan Confederation (House Liao), from six-thirty to about nine o'clock the Free Worlds League (House Marik), and from nine to noon the Lyran Commonwealth (House Steiner). The Inner Sphere was ruled for a long time by the Star League in a golden age of peace, justice, prosperity, and scientific advancement (at least, that's how most people remember it). Until decidedly non-magnificent bastard Stefan Amaris killed the First Lord of the Star League and his entire family, going down in history as Amaris the Usurper (invoking Amaris' name, depending on company and inflection, is the same as invoking either Hitler or Satan). The just-generally-magnificent General Aleksandr Kerensky of the Star League Defense Force saw this, said "aw hell no," and led the SLDF on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge through the Inner Sphere, culminating in kicking Amaris' ass off Terra and straight to hell. The heads of the Five Great Houses got together to decide who should take up the mantle of First Lord of the Star League. Perhaps predictably, each believed himself the only qualified candidate, and in the end the only thing they could agree on was to disband the SLDF, each Lord apparently hoping the bulk of it would join him so he could steamroll everyone else. General Kerensky saw this, said "aw HELL no" and pulled a Screw This, I'm Outta Here with almost the entire SLDF, leaving the Inner Sphere for parts unknown. His role in the story is quite obviously over.

The Great Houses, now the Successor States, began fighting a series of Succession Wars that nearly clubbed them back into pre-spaceflight, each trying to conquer the others and become First Lord of a new Star League. On Terra, ComStar arose to guard technology and knowledge, and morphed into a quasi-mystical religious order with schemes to let the Successor States bludgeon themselves insensate and then step in to "save" them, making themselves rulers of a new Star League. And the SLDF, having found some habitable worlds well outside the Inner Sphere, were reorganized by Aleksandr's son Nicholas into the Clans, basically eugenics-practicing Spartans Up To Eleven in giant robots, who would eventually invade the Inner Sphere to try and reestablish the Star Leauge (is the First Lord's throne made of solid crack or something?)

Who is Katherine Steiner-Davion? What did she do?

Katherine is the second child of Hanse Davion and Melissa Steiner. Little is known about her childhood, save that she attended the New Avalon Institute of Science, instead of the New Avalaon Military Academy or the Nagelring, the military academy her older brother Victor graduated from. This is worth noting because, by the laws of the Federated Suns (and thus, the Suns half of the Federated Commonwealth), the First Prince must have served five years of active military service in a front-line unit before they are eligible to inherit the title.

After Hanse Davion's death from a heart attack in 3052, Melissa Steiner privately offered to abdicate the Federated Commonwealth to Victor. Victor did not feel he was ready for such an enormous responsibility, and was focused on preparing for the inevitability of renewed hostilities with the Clans.

Katherine became a more visible political figure, helping her mother and brother run the massive nation and becoming well-loved for her charm, charisma, and humanitarian endeavors. She took to dressing almost exclusively in white, to project an air of innocence and purity, enhanced by her natural blonde haired, blue eyed beauty.

In 3055, Melissa Steiner was assassinated by a bomb at a diplomatic function. The blast claimed not only her life, but several others, and many more were injured. Among the dead was Salome Kell, among the injured her husband Morgan Kell, who lost an arm. It should be noted that Morgan Kell was one of the Inner Sphere's most dangerous MechWarriors in his day (and no one's quite sure his day is over just yet) as well as the leader of the Kell Hounds mercenary company, one of the most skilled and storied mercenary units in the Inner Sphere, with an almost fanatical devotion to House Steiner.

For a long time, it was unknown who had ordered the assassination of Melissa Steiner. There were two main suspects: Ryan Steiner, leader of the Isle of Skye separatist movement and general thorn-in-the-side since Katherine's grandmother Katrina had been Archon. . . and Victor Steiner-Davion, as many came to believe he'd killed his father three years previously and now his mother, apparently because he was just that impatient to rule over half the Inner Sphere. Katherine publicly and vehemently refused to believe her brother could possibly be capable of such a thing.

Katherine tried to play peacemaker between Victor and Ryan, but both were stubborn and entrenched in their positions. Katherine also struck up a romance with Galen Cox, Victor's military aide and very good friend. When Ryan decided to have Katherine assassinated, he didn't know Katherine had a mole in his organization who would warn her. Katherine evaded the attempt. . . but chose not to warn Galen, who walked right into it and was killed. (Although not really. . . he was warned in time by FedCom intelligence, though he had to fake his own death and assume a new identity for a time.)

Evidence mounting against Ryan, Victor decided he'd had enough and had Ryan assassinated. This proved a very unpopular move. . . the Skye Separatists were a problem, but they had some legitimate complaints and loved their leader, Jerkass though he may be. To avoid a full-scale uprising, Victor returned to New Avalon to run the Federated Commonwealth from there, leaving the Lyran half under Katherine's regency. Around this time, Katherine began to call herself "Katrina," after her beloved and famous grandmother. She also began frequently dropping "-Davion" from her surname.

Putting the pieces together, Victor and several others (including Morgan Kell) came to the following conclusion: Ryan had been involved in the assassination of Melissa Steiner, but with the assistance of Katherine. Katherine had manipulated the events so she would come out a media darling and Only Sane Man between her brother and the now-deceased Ryan Steiner. The Lyrans loved Katherine, but rather hated Victor. Of course, the fact that Victor lacks a great deal of political savvy and had relied heavily on Katherine in that department only made matters worse for him.

In 3057, when it came out that Victor had used a Body Double to replace Joshua Marik, undergoing treatment for his leukemia at the NAIS, Katherine seceded the Lyran half of the Federated Commonwealth, dubbing it the Lyran Alliance (this had the unfortunate side effect of making their military the Lyran Alliance Armed Forces, LAAF). Katherine went about securing her hold over the Lyran Alliance, and continuing to subtly, charmingly, paint her brother as an unstable violent warlord. She found her new name a very convenient litmus test: if one called her "Katrina," they were loyal to her; if they called her "Katherine," they were loyal to Victor.

Now in control of all Lyran military units, she withdrew as many of them as would listen from the Sarna March, essentially cedeing to Thomas Marik the worlds taken in the Fourth Succession War. She also withdrew troops from "troublesome" worlds on the border of the Clan Jade Falcon occupation zone, basically saying to those worlds "if you prefer Victor's protection over mine, you can wait for him." Morgan Kell responded by forming the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon, using his Kell Hounds, their "seed team" mercenary units, and the new Clan Wolf-In-Exile to reinforce the Lyran border when its own Archon would not. Katherine was enraged at Morgan's defiance of her, but publicly pretended it had been done with her blessing and no, Morgan Kell didn't just effectively form is own micro Successor State.

Deciding she needed a more loyal and reliable ally against the Jade Falcons, she left for the Clan Ghost Bear occupation zone to strike up a mutual defense pact with them. Along the way, she instead encountered Khan Vlad Ward of the reborn Clan Wolf, and the two pretty much had Love at First Sight. Katherine got her mutual defense treaty, but with Clan Wolf.

In 3059, the Inner Sphere launched Operation BULLDOG and Task Force Serpent, intended to break the back of the Clan invasion and bring a permanent end to hostilities. Victor, naturally, left to lead Operation Bulldog. His younger brother Peter, who had also been working on his military service, was unavailable, so Victor appointed his youngest sister Yvonne as regent of the Federated Commonwealth. Katherine deftly manipulated public opinion polls to make it appear that Yvonne was a terrible ruler, and soon Yvonne reached out to her big sister, begging for help. Katherine graciously agreed, her appointment was confirmed, and she began styling herself "First Princess of the Federated Commonwealth." Two problems: One, the leader of the Federated Suns has always been the First Prince, regardless of gender; two, Katherine never even started the requisite military service to claim the title. Legally, she could be regent, but acted as though she was de jure ruler. Katherine began building her power base just as she had in the Lyran Alliance, but had not spent years eroding Victor's support. She encountered stiff resistance, though that mostly consisted of Victor loyalist military leaders resigning in protest over her technically illegal actions. Katherine also made a deal with Sun-Tzu Liao: she would not interfere in his reconquest of the St. Ives Compact (a Federated Commonwealth protectorate formerly the St. Ives District of the Capellan Confederation) in exchange for his support of her as the next First Lord of the Second Star League.

For his part, Victor elected not to plunge the people he saw as his into a civil war immediately upon returning from annihilating Clan Smoke Jaguar. But when Katherine attempted to assassinate Arthur Steiner-Davion, the FedCom Civil War began in earnest. Katherine bought a year of breathing room by having Omi Kurita, Victor's lover, assassinated, but in the end she was soundly defeated. A palatial prison was constructed on Arc-Royal to hold her for the rest of her days, but she was turned over to Khan Vlad Ward when he threatened a renewed invasion.

Katherine (barely) qualified as a Warrior of Clan Wolf, though Vlad's clear favoritism for her was a source of much strife among the Clan. Upon Vlad's death Katherine was transferred to a solahma unit, a posting for old, disgraced, or otherwise unfit warriors. She did, however, contribute to the Clan breeding program. She had her DNA mixed with that of Victor's to create Alaric, who she planned to be her revenge against the Inner Sphere. When Alaric won his Bloodname and declared intent to press a claim to the throne of the Lyran Commonwealth, he asked his mother for advice, specifically on how to deal with a potential rival. When Katherine coldly told him to simply kill her, Alaric did just that, tearfully informing his mother that she was his true rival, and must therefore die.

Heinousness? The setting of BattleTech runs on two things: Forever War empowered by limited warfare (so the small tabletop battles can be said to actually mean something) and Gray-and-Gray Morality. Just about any faction can be the "good" or "bad" guys depending on how you personally feel about them. Most characters are equally lovable and detestable. Katherine lacks the "Nuke 'em till they glow then shoot 'em in the dark" level of heinousness that many other BT Complete Monsters have, but like Stefan Amaris she's an usurpur who lets nothing at all stand between her and the power she wants. She had her own mother (and several others, including distant relations like the Kells) killed via bomb, tried to assassinate her own youngest brother, and did assassinte Victor's lover Omi Kurita. This last really bears stressing. Omi was the daughter of Coordinator Theodore Kurita, sister of Hohiro Kurita who would also one day lead the Draconis Combine. The Combine has long been enemies of both the Lyran Commonwealth and Federated Suns. Only the Clan invasion, Hanse and Theodore's respect as Worthy Opponents, and Victor and Hohiro coming to an understanding (largely through Omi) de-escalated tensions and brought about a real hope for peace. And Katherine killed her just to kick Victor's heart in the balls. If the Combine hadn't had its own problems at that very moment, this would have resulted in a red tide of enraged samurai in giant stompy 'Mechs falling on Katherine like a tsunami. This is an extremely stupid thing to do, and she did it, just to make her brother hurt. Oh, and she deliberately chose not to warn Galen, who she claimed to be falling in love with, about an assassination attempt on her that could (and very nearly did) get him, too.

Mitigating Qualities? It's never spelled out, but Katherine is basically a textbook high-functioning sociopath. Exceptionally skilled at emotional manipulation while having zero empathy of her own. Everyone she claims to love or value is really just a tool for her to use to advance her own agenda. She doesn't even care about the people she rules, she just wants power. While that means she doesn't institute policies to make people suffer just because it gives her a good down-low tickle when they do, she also has zero interest in actually benefitting anyone unless it benefits her. And when your own son decides you deserve. . . ouch. Sure, Alaric may have loved his "mother," but to her, he was nothing but another tool.

Conclusion? She's a far more subtle kind of heinous, but given that she shook up the status quo of this universe as much as an entire Clan invasion all for her own ends. . . I'd say yes.

Bullman "Cool. Coolcoolcool." Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."

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