During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I've decided to download all "Top Cow Production" comic titles I could find and check them out on possible candidates. Aside from their most popular work "Witchblade" and the works connected to it, they also released bunch of unrelated mini-series of comics. If I can, I want to reserve all "Witchblade Universe" comics stuff ("Witchblade", "The Darkness", "Cyberforce" and all its spin-offs, "The Magdalena", "Aphrodite IX" and "Tomb Raider" from Top Cow). But before I go to it, I have a few candidates from bunch of unrelated comic mini-series from "Top Cow" that I manage to read.
What's the work?
"Cursed" is a comic mini-series follows Shan Beaumont, a reporter whose family is haunted by the "Curse of Insanity", as many members of her family experience crazy and nightmarish visions and hallucinations. As she visits her father in the "L.A. Forche Asylum", he tells her that she was chosen and gives her mysterious amulet. After a visit, she is got a call from her friend from the police, who is investigating series of murders happening on the streets at night. All victims' hearts were torn from their bodies. He asks for her help with the clues, as broken Canopic Jar (ancient Egyptian vase that were used to hold vital organs of the dead) was found near recent body of the victim. After she decided fly to Germany, where her dad started to experience crazy visions, to find out why.
My candidate is the main antagonist of this story - Victor Hahn.
Who is Victor Hahn?
Okay. The reveal from the plot of the story is that "The Curse" is in reality some kind of "gift" from the Egyptian gods, which they cast upon Shan Beaumont's ancestor Jean Beaumont, who robbed the Tomb of Osiris, and it went down his family line. This "gift" allows them to see glimpses of the past and the future. That way they make Beaumont's their chosen protectors. Victor Hahn was a worshipper of the Egyptian gods (particularly Osiris) and wanted to be given this "gift", but when gods rejected him, he decided to make them serve him. Establishing museum of antiquities in Germany and seemingly a cult (we don't see more than 3 followers of it, including Victor himself), dedicated to worshipping Egyptian gods and their ways, Victor begin a series of murders, performing ancient Egyptian rituals on his victims and placing their hearts in Canopic Jars, this way they become his undead zombie servants. Tracking down Shan Beaumont, Hahn decided to make her "The Door" to afterlife, so that he can trap Osiris and enslave him, as a revenge for not making him the chosen one. Upon meeting her in person in the museum, when she asked him if his cult is performing ritual sacrifices, to which he denied and showed her Isis amulet, which make her experiencing visions of decimated town, filled with zombies who attack her, resulting her to run from the museum. Later on Victor orders his undead servants to bring him Shan. They cornered Shan and her photographer on the street at night, but were driven off by Cleopatra. When Detective Medina started to figure out that Hahn was responsible for latest murders, Victor orders his undercover henchwoman Suzan, to close him and his partner Fred in the morgue, where he ordered his zombie servants to kill them, which would have happen if not for Suzan having a change of heart in the last moment. She managed to save Medina, but not his partner. Victor decided to perform the ritual on his right hand man Edmund Plotch and have him kidnap Cleopatra. When he succeeds, Victor ordered his zombies to massacre an entire group of tourists in his museum. When Shaun come to him by her own will, he started to prepare ritual to open door to Afterlife and orders captured Cleopatra to summon Osiris. In process Osiris contacted Shaun and given her part of his power, allowing her to free herself and destroy Victor's zombies and tear of his skin, resulting in Victor revealing snake skin underneath. She gives Isis Amulet to Cleopatra, letting her go to Afterlife along with Hahn.
Heinousness?
As far as I know "Cursed" comic mini-series is separate from any universe that Top Cow invented for their comics, so it gets judged as its own thing and Victor is the big bad, so he sets heinous standard for comic. He murders dozens of people, trap them in the status between life and death and make them his slaves through the ancient Egyptian ritual. Shaun gets a brief glimpse of the future (as Cleopatra claims) and she saw full city of zombies, so that's implies that Victor aimed at even higher bodycount. Cleopatra is no saint herself (she was cursed, so she required one willing sacrifice from time to time, to keep her appearance as she gets covered in snake skin from each century). But still she doesn't have the half of bodycount Hahn has, so Victor still clear up there.
Mitigating Qualities?
Well, not much, he obviously doesn't care about anybody other than himself. He claims in the finale to only wanting to serve Osiris and the gods, but his entire plan was to trap Osiris and enslave him, all because Osiris didn't make him the chosen one. Otherwise, in the end Shaun spared him and allowed Cleopatra to take him with her to Afterlife so that they may "find some peace". But even then Victor didn't show single remorse for his actions, so i don't think it's counts, as he silently walk to the portal.
Conclusion?
I lean toward yes.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 19th 2019 at 6:42:37 PM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Victor Hahn.
Goku Black
Hahn
Victor Haun
Victor Hahn, Surtur, and those Elseworld baddies!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Victor Hahn.
Fun thing, I also write about a bad guy seemingly loyal to a deity that actually tries to enslave it.
Watch me destroying my country
During my time on this thread, I have constantly been torn on the concept of a Complete Monster in a kids' show. I have slowly come to realize that the Complete Monster cannot do stuff that would clash too heavily with the show's tone (which is why a Serial Killer in Dora the Explorer would likely not blow over well with parents). However, the show my candidate is from is not light-hearted at all. In fact, it's very dark (especially in its second season). Prepare yourselves....
What's The Work?
Dark Oracle is a Canadian TV show that aired on YTV for two seasons (each compromised of thirteen episodes) from 2004 to 2006. In this show, twins Lance and Cally Stone come across a comic that dictates their lives. Several potential villains abound, but most of them don't count. Doyle is initially set up as a rather shady character, but later revealed to be a good guy. Omen (during his curse as a frog named Nemo) creates the comic in the first episode, but he redeems himself in the finale. Vern is set up as an antagonist in Season 2, but he comes off as too incompetent and also redeems himself. Violet and Blaze, the doppelgangers of Cally and Lance (respectively) are set up as a Big Bad Duumvirate, but later revealed to be Co-Dragons of my candidate....
Who Is He? What Had He Done?
The Puppet Master is the Big Bad of this piece. Near the end of the series, Lance is sucked into the comic world and replaced by Blaze. The Puppet Master casts a spell that starts to wipe Lance and Callie from existence so Violet and Blaze can take over their lives. He later appears to taunt Doyle about the situation, and reveals his plan to cross over the comic world to the real world and replace everyone with their comic counterparts. It's the finale where the Puppet Master truly gets to show his evil. As Doyle, Omen, and Vern recite a chant to reverse his spell and get everything back to normal, the Puppet Master starts to attack Lance to prevent the destruction of the comic. Luckily, the heroes still succeed, but the Puppet Master does not go down gently. In a rage, he tries to zap Cally and take her with him, but Nemo takes the hit and jumps in instead. The comic is destroyed, and the Puppet Master, Nemo, and Violet and Blaze are wiped out of existence. However, at the end, the mirror sends out a ghostly wail of "Cally"....
None given.
Heinous Standard?
As the Big Bad, he sets it.
Other Mitigating Factors?
Here's were it gets kind of tricky. In Season 1, Violet and Blaze were shown to be relatively good characters, but in Season 2, they (and Sage's comic counterpart) were shown to be utter sociopaths. According to what I've read in WMG and Fridge, most people seem to think this has something to do with Cally tearing up an issue in Season 1, which likely warped the script.
Verdict?
I'm kind of hesitant to vote on account of potential agency issues, but vote as you see fit.
Edited by 11111001011 on Jan 19th 2019 at 11:30:42 AM
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
HAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHN!
Yes to Hahn, no to the Puppet Maste.r Not really seeing what makes him so bad here.
Yes to everyone I missed.
As for Puppet Master, it depends on how unpleasant being stuck in the comic book world would be for a human. That would be the key question here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Abstain on Queen La.
I'm leaning yes on Victor, but that ending gives me a LOT of pause. Like, he didn't show remorse, but is it implied?
Edited by ACW on Jan 19th 2019 at 12:19:01 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
No to the Puppet Master.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ultimate Moral Compass
Writeups for this week.
- Ulysses Jeanne D Arc And The Alchemist Knights: Enlil himself, from the final three episodes, is the king of the 72 gods, a race of aliens who created humankind. Seeing humans as flawed beings, Enlil decided to annihilate his creations in order to create a peaceful utopia ruled by him, where his inhabitants will have no free will of their own. Defeated by Astaroth centuries ago and stored inside the void dimension, Enlil escapes by possessing Montmorency, where he decimates multiple humans and calls upon his spaceships to destroy earth. When Montmorency tries to fight back, Enlil forces him to watch Jeanne burn at the stake.
- Chimamire Sukeban Chainsaw, by Rei Mikamoto: Nero Aoi is a Mad Scientist who serves as the series’ Overarching Villain. A previous victim of bullying due to experimenting on animals, Nero decided to take over the world by killing off her classmates and configuring them into an army of remodeled corpses. She creates a serum that causes people to become insane and violent, and keeps her childhood friend Yuto around as a pet to molest and mentally torture. Resurrecting herself, she converts the Volunteer club into the Guardians, a group of Knight Templars who kill anyone suspected of sin. Kidnapping Kimberly to lure Geeko and company to her lair, she has them pitted against previously deceased murderers and forces them to kill a crazed, out of control Kimberly that results in the death of Mizushima. Once again resurrecting herself, she partakes in the Mondokanoke prison where her remodeled corpses are tortured, and later hunts down Geeko and Bakutani once they escape, where she ends up killing Geeko and attempts to resurrect her as her most powerful fighter. Obsessed with fueling her own ego, Nero stood out as a selfish psychopath hated by all.
- Revenger (2018): Carlos Kun/Kuhn is the bandaged leader of the prison island AP 101. Originally a criminal who killed Yul’s wife and daughter in front of him, Kuhn faked his death and headed to AP 101, where he immediately slit a man’s throat, chopped off Bau’s hand, and killed Jin’s father. Becoming the island’s leader, he has people captured and released so his men can chase after and kill them. When Yul kills one of his men and releases his prisoners, Kuhn kills one the men who told him this and sends his assassins out to murder Yul, before trying to kill him himself.
@Overlord From what we see, Lance was fading away in the comic world.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Hmmmm, so would you say there is enough evidence to say that humans that are sent to the comic book world face death or torment?
If that is the case, I would give a yes to Puppet Master. I think this one of those times where how much peril the provide through the plot is key. The more the plot states the peril, the more dangerous the villain becomes.
Edited by Overlord on Jan 19th 2019 at 9:24:25 AM
No. Ending just shows him on one panel from afar walking to the Afterlife portal with Cleopatra and that's it. We only see his silhouette from the back. All that happens is he lost, his zombie servants destroyed and he covered in snake skin, while screaming that he only wanted to serve Osiris, despite the fact that before he talked about how he will enslave him. And all "I just wanted to serve you" came when Osiris grant Shan his powers and she utterly curbstomped him, so it just him trying to save his skin.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 19th 2019 at 8:28:51 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, still seems a bit odd, but I'll give him a yes then.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Not sure on Puppet Master. Isn't that a somewhat low attempted body count ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unfortunately leaning "no" to Puppet Master. I say "unfortunately" because and old YTV show from my past have me a bit of a nostalgic throwback.
For the record "no" I'm not fishing out any old villains from those shows, even the supernatural based ones; ones a werewolf show that's a little too comedic with a lot of its villains in my opinion, and a obscure vampire drama were the villain has redeeming qualities from what I remember.
What I am considering is revisitng Video Game/Prototype having discovered the comics and Far Cry 4 alrhough I still feel the heinous standard is an issue.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
I'll abstain on Puppet Master.
Hahn
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Puppet Master
I'm Sad Frogerson.
With a unanimous 16 , here's my write-up for Surtur:
- Surtur is the ruler of Muspelheim and lord of the Fire Demons. Sealed away by Odin many centuries ago, Surtur was freed when the Norn Stone connected to Muspelheim was stolen by Baron Zemo. Once freed, he began his mission to bring about Ragnarok and burn all the Nine Realms to ashes. Surtur arrived at Nidavellir to retrieve fragments of the Twilight Sword being held by the dwarves. He laid waste to Nidavellir and slaughtered most of the dwarf population in the process. Surtur later enslaved the Enchantress and forced her to do his bidding as his new Demon Queen. Surtur's forces terrorized the Korbinites while he used their Sun to reforge the Twilight Sword and wiped out their homeworld when it went supernova. He possessed the Enchantress when she begged Thor to kill her and boasted how she was beyond Thor's help now. With a thirst for destruction so powerful even Loki dared not to invoke his wrath, Surtur's name was the most feared across all Nine Realms.
Just like miraculous said, Surtur should go at the bottom of the The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes tree.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hear, I believe, is all we have pending, minus Elfen's stuff:
- Maghda (LoreDeluxe)
- Lucien Mareu (Miraculous)
- Eliphas Coyte (Miraculous)
- Cursed, by Fiona Avery et al.: Victor Hahn (VVV)
- Lightysnake
- Echidna
- Revenger (2018): Dragon
- Rocky Handsome (2016): Kevin and Luke
- Diablo: Legacy of Blood, by Richard Knaak: Augustus Malevolyn
- "Snow, Glass, Apples", by Neil Gaiman: Snow White
- The Haunter from "The Haunter of the Dark" & "The Shadow from the Steeple"
- Ironbeak
- Scraggle
- Holmes Lit:
- Laslo Bronislav (Lighty)
- Holmes (Miraculous)
Edited by ACW on Jan 19th 2019 at 12:44:38 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@Michael Allende's quote looks passable I guess.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."