During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The Serial Killer
Lizzid people!
Will reserve the upcoming film Knock at the Cabin.
Yes to the Serial Killer.
Yes to the Serial Killer. He is as bad as he can be, and unlike Van Zant he isn't competing with a ton of planet busters.
Yes to Kaiser Hades and the Serial Killer.
Here is my Durand write up:
- The Long Long Holiday: Durand is a resident of the small French town of Grangeville. After the town is occupied by the Nazis, Durand becomes a traitorous collaborator. Durand vows to root out Jews and Frech citizens who are disloyal to the Vichy regime. When a group of children who name themselves the Robinsons start to resist the Nazis, Durand tries to expose them and have them arrested by the Nazis. Durand manages to get their teacher Mr. Herbin arrested. Durand turns in a Jewish teenager who refuses to wear the Star of David badge to the Nazis and he is sent to a death camp. Durand ultimately finds the Robinsons' clubhouse in the woods and informs the Nazis of it, happy that the Nazis intend to kill everyone there.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 27th 2022 at 6:54:05 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Kaiser, Serial Killer
Any thoughts for my quote?
Good quote.
Wanted to weigh in on the Deadpool 3 bit real quick, but the time to do so may have passed though.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 27th 2022 at 7:15:07 AM
Hades and Killer
the serial killer
So... as it's been two weeks, I can open this puppy up for discussion:
What is the Work
Venom (Ewing & Ram V) — In the wake of King in Black and Venom (Donny Cates), Eddie Brock is the new King in Black (the god of the symbiotes) and has been neglecting his now-teenaged son Dylan to oversee the Symbiote Hive-Mind in the hopes of redeeming them of the atrocities they committed under Knull's command.
While rescuing a space-ship full of refugees from some Skrull space-pirates, one of Eddie's symbiotes is hijacked by an outside force from the future, butchers the refugees, tells Eddie that he and his loved ones are going to be killed by a group called Absent Throne, and peaces out while killing the symbiote. Eddie returns to Earth just in time to call Dylan to warn him, and gets blown up by some soldiers right in front of his son, who bonds to the Venom symbiote and goes berserk to avenge them.
Eddie's codex (consciousness/soul) finds himself catapulted into the distant future to a place called the Garden of Time, overseen by the enigmatic King in Black called Meridius and inhabited by several other Kings in Black, who Meridius says were Eddie's successors and like him were unmoored in time and stranded there. Growing suspicious of Meridius, Eddie tries to send his codex back in time to save Dylan and discovers the conspiracy against him runs deeper than he ever imagined, and that he is his own worst enemy in more ways than one.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
Meridius is a King in Black and the self-proclaimed ultimate future self of the Eddie Brock of Earth-616. According to Meridius, his experiments with mental time-travel led to him being trapped at the end of time, going more and more insane as he struggled to find a way to escape until he cast aside his humanity and became a dark god driven by cruel contempt and hatred towards everyone and everything.
Seeking to grow powerful enough to break time's hold on him, Meridius devoured the consciousnesses/souls of the symbiotes and used their empty husks to create the Garden of Time — a physical manifestation of the time-loop he orchestrated to ensure his own existence by gaslighting and torturing his past selves — Eddie, Finnegan, Bedlam, Wilde, and Tyro. Meridius' end-goal is induce the Venom symbiote to grow more powerful, reunite with it, and break the time-loop no matter the cost; and he views everyone else — even his own past selves — as expendable pawns to this end.
Over the course of the series (not in chronological order from his perspective) Meridius has also:
- Helped Kang the Conqueror expand his intergalactic empire across several thousand years using weaponized symbiotes
- Saved the Life Foundation from bankruptcy and restored Carlton Drake's humanity, facilitating him torturing dozens of symbiotes
- Took over one of Eddie's symbiote allies, butchered a group of refugees to destress, delivered a mocking warning to Eddie that he and his loved ones were going to die, and killed the symbiote he was indwelling just to spite Eddie
- Impersonated Eddie in an attempt to kidnap Dylan Brock and/or scare him into running away to witness Eddie's death, internally monologuing about how pathetic humans are
- Arranged for Eddie Brock to get blown up in front of his son, with Dylan's vengeful rage re-corrupting the Venom symbiote
- Met Edde Brock's time-displaced codex at the Garden of Time and started the process of gaslighting him, introducing him to Wilde and Tyro; with Finnegan and Bedlam crashing the party
- Ordered Carlton Drake to torment the Venom symbiote in order to induce it to grow more powerful
- Pulled strings so that Liz Allan — who previously treated Dylan like a second son — was willing to perform tortuous experiments on him in the belief that doing so could save humanity from the symbiote scourge, further amplifying Venom's corruption
- Arranged for Kang to gaslight Eddie into trying to change the past, thus helping set in motion the very events he was trying to prevent
- Trapped Eddie's codex in Bedlam's mindscape, forcing him to watch Bedlam torturing Dylan to the brink of death while mocking him
- Pulled Eddie back to the Garden of Time to inform him of the time-loop and that all the Kings in Black were his future selves at different stages of succumbing to madness, causing Eddie to turn into "Finnegan" in despair and denial
- Stopped Bedlam from killing "Finnegan" and sicced him on Dylan by saying that suffering would potentially make him strong enough to defeat Meridius himself, and that hurting Dylan would cause Eddie/Finnegan suffering; rubbing it in Eddie's face how powerless he is to do anything except become Meridius
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
This is where things get a bit messy. Merdius is the purported future self of Earth-616's Eddie Brock, and thus shares Eddie's backstory of having an abusive father who hated him, losing his beloved job and wife, almost committing suicide, being abused by the Venom symbiote, etc. However, Meridius has clearly cast aside everything that made Eddie even remotely sympathetic, having come to the conclusion that those traits made him weak and need to be stamped out. While he's the victim of an unknown period of psychological torture and abuse, mentally broken and reshaped into what he is, he's also the gleeful perpetrator of said torture and abuse, and due to the nature of the time-loop it's unclear if this was always the case. Eddie theorizes that there is a version of himself beyond Meridius, but it's unclear if this self is evil or not. Meridius, however, is undeniably evil, and is referred to by Eddie as him at his most despicable.
While he can project an affable front, it's shallow and he is otherwise cold, contemptuous, and cruel — seeing everyone else (and especially the other Kings in Black) as insects to be crushed or pawns in a 4D game of chess, to be used and cast aside as need be. He takes sadistic delight in making his own past selves suffer over and over in an attempt to break them, corrupt them, and mould them into becoming him — thus furthering the time-loop — and is more than happy to orchestrate his own son's misery and death if doing so brings him even one step closer to attaining his goals.
Kang remarks that he's known Eddie — implied to be as Meridius — for thousands of years, and claims to be Eddie's oldest friend and that they even agreed to conquer the universe together, but Meridius never indicates he truely reciprocates this friendship and treats Kang the same way he does Carlton Drake: as a useful pawn in his quest to screw over Eddie Brock as badly as possible.
There's a brief moment where he almost pities Dylan, thinking to himself that Eddie especially deserves to die for abandoning his son to play King in Black, then notes that Dylan is just another disposable pawn in his scheme to obtain the Venom symbiote. He also overwrites Dylan's speech bubbles with contemptuous comments like "[typical puny human whining]", showing he doesn't care one whit for the boy who was once his son.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Meridius is the Big Bad of Venom (Ewing & Ram V), and most of the other villains thus far — Carlton Drake and the Life Foundation, Liz Allan and Alchemax, Bedlam, and Kang the Conqueror — all serve him either directly or indirectly. The Absent Throne cabal Meridius founded further has its fingers in pretty much every pie in Marvel's bakery — not just the Life Foundation and Alchemax, but the Friends of Humanity from Extreme Carnage and the Beyond Corporation from Spider-Man Beyond, among others.
Meridius has gaslit and tortured his own past selves psychologically & physically to drive them insane and make them easier to manipulate; forcibly took over a symbiote to slaughter a ship full of innocent refugees to antagonize Eddie and vent his pent-up bloodlust and frustration at having to deal with the other Kings in Black at the Garden of Time, then killed the symbiote just to spite Eddie; is more-than happy to torture and kill his teenaged son Dylan in order to psychologically break Eddie; carried out a genocide on the symbiotes to give himself a power-up; and is implied to have loaned Kang the Symbiote Hive for use in his conquests — which have decimated intergalactic armies and destroyed whole planets — as well as personally taken part in them. Oh, and he loves to smugly gloat about how his existence is inevitable and that there's nothing Eddie can do to stop him.
Final Verdict?
I'm... honestly not sure. I want to say , but what do you all think?
Edited by Arawn999 on Sep 27th 2022 at 9:52:39 AM
Kaiser Hades seems on his way to being approved, so next up I've got
Who is the villain?
Majin Daruga is the Greater-Scope Villain of Justirisers and Hades's "big, bad brother". He leads an evil empire called the Daruga Imperial Army, of which the Hades Army is a branch, and was the one who sanctioned their destruction of planet Riser.
What does he do?
Daruga sets his sights on Earth after learning of his brother's death on the planet, taking an interest in the powers of the Justirisers. While he readies he fleet, Daruga sends his loyal commander Adorocs ahead with a vanguard force to defeat the Justirisers and prepare the planet for his arrival, but when the Justirisers defeat Adorocs Daruga decides he'll take care of them when he arrives.
After arriving on the planet, Daruga steals Demon Knight's Justi Power and uses it to upgrade himself into an Evil Counterpart of the Justirisers called "Dark Demon God Kurogane". He then calls his space fortress, the Diglos, to Earth in order to use its Gigatron Cannon to destroy the planet. To keep the Justirisers distracted while the Gigatron charges, Kurogane deploys waves and waves of giant gorilla-esque mechas called Bulgarios to lay waste to Tokyo and everything else in sight. At the same time, he sends squads of Zakoal Mooks to sweep the city and kill any humans who survive.
Riser Glen is able to stop the Gigatron Cannon by blowing up Diglos, but Kurogane survives and comes to Earth, declaring he'll simply wipe out everything on the planet, convert it into his "mobile war planet" and build a new empire off the top of it. He then assumes his true kaiju form and goes on a rampage to destroy what's left of Tokyo, but the Justirisers are able to kill him.
Heinous Standard
Daruga/Kurogane is the top dog when it comes to heinousness in the series. While it's not ever clarified whether he directly ordered Riser's destruction or simply gave it his approval, he had one of his top enforcers assassinate the princess of the planet as the war was going on, so he most certainly was involved. Besides that, when he comes to Earth he does substantially more damage than Hades did, nearly blows up the entire planet and reduces Tokyo to rubble.
Mitigating Factors
Hades may be his little brother, but Daruga doesn't care about him at all. When he receives word of Hades's death, his reaction is simply to call his lil bro foolish for getting himself killed. He comes to Earth purely because he wants to steal the powers the Justirisers have, not to avenge Hades or anything like that.
Final Verdict
A hearty to Daruga.
The only series left now is Sazer-X. I don't recall to much from it, but there's three villains from it who I think may be potential CMs.
Just imagine something here.
Daruga
As for Meridius does anything indicate he lacks agency?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
No. He says he's a victim and a prisoner of the time-loop, but he's also the one starting and perpetuating said time loop so that doesn't add up. What made you think he lacks agency?
Collector of Worlds
So, will Hush be left alone or discussed? Very sorry if I am being irritating.
I will claim what is rightfully mine, and rebuild the Kryptonian Empire.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to the Killer.
Yes to Daruga. How do his resources compare to those of Hades?
Unsure on Meridius.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
If you want to discuss Hush, feel free to type up an EP for him. There's an effortpost template above so you know how to lay out the EP.
Meridius. His situation sounds similar to Nightmare Eclipse.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
My thing..."While he's the victim of an unknown period of psychological torture and abuse, mentally broken and reshaped into what he is, he's also the gleeful perpetrator of said torture and abuse"
I mean, if the torture and abuse reshaped him into someone who tortures and abuses, I'd be wary.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Emperor of Evil!
to Daruga
I'm abstaining on Meridius, the backstory gives me serious pause.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Daruga
Gonna abstain on Meridius for now unless another opinion can chirp in on the highlighted concerns.
EDIT: May have another How to Train Your Dragon candidate that's possibly been missed.
Edited by WetFlannels on Sep 28th 2022 at 4:33:53 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Meridus is a hard no. "Tortured into being evil" is a MASSIVE red flag.
If you ever find yourself writing the words "He was a victim of horrible torture and abuse that shaped him into what he is," consider your candidate is almost assuredly not a keeper.
Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 28th 2022 at 8:51:08 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Meridius
Daruga
Meridius
Kaiser Hades, the Serial Killer and Daruga. Meridius.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Ah then Meridius
Not trying to contest him but wasn't Koba a case of being tortured made him worse? Was it him attacking his own kind what removed his excuse being valid?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Slight rewrite of my own entry:
- Desperation in Death: Jonah K. Devereaux is the wealthy head of Reliable Delivery Services, as well as the brains and money behind a vile, massive Human Trafficking ring. "The Pleasure Academy" takes women and girls, with the latter as young as 11, if not younger, and grooms them—via drugs, electric shocks, and other methods—to become domestic slaves and sex slaves. The Academy occasionally holds auctions in which the girls are sold; in the most recent auction, Devereaux is even double-crossing his otherwise equally-vile partner, "Auntie" Iris Beaty, aka Iris Swan, who runs the Academy's day-to-day operations and considers Devereaux a friend. Devereaux also has his own sex slaves, and in fact is killed by his newest one after he tells her how he plans to share her with his friends.
- Desperation in Death: Jonah K. Devereaux is the wealthy head of Reliable Delivery Services, as well as the brains and money behind a vile, massive Human Trafficking ring. "The Pleasure Academy" takes women and girls, with the latter as young as 11, if not younger, and grooms them—via drugs, electric shocks, and other methods—to become domestic slaves and sex slaves; the Academy also produces videos featuring its victims. In addition, the Academy occasionally holds auctions in which the girls are sold; in the most recent auction, Devereaux is even double-crossing his otherwise equally-vile partner, "Auntie" Iris Beaty, aka Iris Swan, who runs the Academy's day-to-day operations and considers Devereaux a friend. Devereaux also has his own sex slaves, and in fact is killed by his newest one after he tells her how he plans to share her with his friends.
Well, might as well then. It took me long to make this because I had school to do. This is probably gonna be a short one.
The Ferret is a Wolverine Wannabe, a wise-cracking, smart-mouth Anti-Hero yet also very noble and caring despite being harsh at times. In the miniseries, he had to face a mutated assassin named Toxin who would poison him in their first battle, and later goes into interdimensional travel across dimensions for a few issues. The Ferret, after his miniseries had ended, made a guest appearance in the final issues of Street Fighter (Malibu Comics) of all places for... some reason.. Fighting E. Honda, the latter of who kicked his ass. Weird Crossover...
Who Is The Serial Killer?
The main antagonist of the final issue, "Chains of Loves" and thus the final antagonist of the whole miniseries.
An unnamed well... Serial Killer, who hangs out at a biker's bar where he hunts young women for him to kill. His method of murder? He turns out to be a superpowered baddy who can ignite some sort of energy.. flame things on his chains, so he could beat his victims to this with them and burn them alive as well, burning them into their flesh. The Killer uses a biker bar as his hunting ground for him to track and murder his victims, already claiming the lives of 6 young females whom we see photographs of them through a undercover cop (or detective idk).
He tracks the detective down by placing a tracker in her purse when she wasn't looking, and try to murder her to add to his list of victims until the Ferret intervenes and the two battle. He decided to run away when the Ferret overwhelm him, and goes into a car to escape but Ferret fallows him and the two get into a car crash. The Killer boasted how he'll get a lawyer to get him out of prison and kill again, so Ferret decided to break the Thou Shalt Not Kill rule he had the follow when he was a Protector (since he decided to leave when the team gets a new leader he really despise) and snaps the Killers neck.
Mitigating Factors
Yeaahhh no. A simple misogynistic serial killer who kills for pleasure, he claims he loves women and doesn't hate them, and was affable to the detective who was about to be his seventh victim. However I ain't buying his affableness as sincere, as he considers her (and other women) "No better than a stinkin' piece o' meat." which shows he's nothing but a sadistic misogynist. He claims that all his life people tried to lord over him, but that doesn't even remotely excuse the whole "Murdering women off the streets for sadistic kicks" since that had nothing to do with that.
Heinous Standards
A Serial Killer who murders six victims by beating and burning them to death with his chains, giving him a nasty and cruel niche with his murders. He's no Extreme, no Great Question, not Sluggo (who runs a whole town), and no Mr. Monday and his Steel Army who have power armors. He's a minor One-Shot Character with fuck all resources being a street level villain, he ain't even superpowerful with his abilities.
Now, his kills are offscreen but we do see the photos of all his victims while trying to kill yet another victim. The kills have a presence in the issue since it's the very reason why the main character and the detective are after him, so I don't think off-screen villainy is an issue (or at least I hope it ain't if that's enough evidence). Now the Miss Fury comic introduce an attempted child murderer who killed multiple thigs for drug money and castrates a man for trying to cross her while posing as an Miss Fury/Black Fury imposter to incriminate the real Miss Fury as revenge. However she lacks the brutality and torturous method of this guy's murders (besides the castration, she just kills people with a gun while the killer beats and burns people to death).
Final Verdict
Eh... Leave it up to you.
Now I ain't sure if 6 kills is enough for superhero comic books especially for the baseline of superhero comics but if it is enough then it's a yes but if not, all well. I'm feeling a bit more confident on Jug a bit more thinking it through, since the story makes it clear he claimed many lives in throughout the centuries as a vampire but not sure on him too. In the meantime, this is my final candidate of the Genesis universe.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Sep 27th 2022 at 8:27:15 AM