During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I was thinking "fleeing when the tides turn" which would cut out another 2 words? I'll try and condense it more tomorrow. But yeah you've done a good job cutting it back.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Even better.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Moron
Either way, am I good to go-ahead and copy-paste the example from my Tropers page into the main sandbox or do we want to try something else?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Works for me. I'll have to find some way to get Politically Incorrect Villain in the Black Lightning examples though.
EDIT: Actually, for Proctor, I could probably use that for his name and make it "is the SMUG leader" or something.
Edited by ACW on Sep 7th 2022 at 1:39:55 PM
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Btw since you mentioned finding the last sentence of his writeup awkward ACW—a carry over from when I trimmed him and kept parts of the original—I can streamline that too: "Seeking to ruin hero Jefferson Pierce's reputation, when Proctor's plans finally fall apart he aims to take the surviving teens from his experiments with him to continue his abominable operations."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That could work (should it be "the latter", or is it clear enough "he" refers to Proctor}?
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Okay, so for Locke and Key...two things:
First? Dodge's gotta go, unfortunately. HE gets pulled out of time and actually pulls an enemy mine with the Lockes to face the subject of the resulting EP, even putting his life on the line to protect the world, which he says he genuinely likes too much.
Our villain? Frderick Gideon
Who is Gideon?
Gideon and the demon within, is actually kind of a dual post. In life, Gideon was a British officer during the Revolutionary War, and one who enacted his duties with a brutal, sadistic pleasure. Gideon committed a multitude of war crimes, killing civilians and burning people alive, including murdering one of the Lockes. However, he discovered the Black Door and was possessed by one of the most powerful demons of the ether...the demon proceeded in the brutal activities before being hanged.
Until the end of Season 2 when Dodge's right hand woman Eden brings out Gideon back from time, and Gideon murders her to enact his own plans. Summoning other demons to assist, gideon hunts the Lockes to torture and kill them, with his goal being to unlock the way to the demon world. This terrifies Dodge because Gideon will reduce the world to absolutely nothing.
And, uh...it's kind of a let down. Gideon just keeps trying to torture and kill people sadistically, kills a few other people for like 8 episodes. Gideon destroys the Wellhouse, ensuring he can't be destroyed by being pushed through it as an Echo, and proceeds to...you guessed it! Try to torture and kill the whole family, while opening a gateway to the demon realm.
Dodge is stabbed in the back by Kinsey Locke with the Alpha Key, which can kill demons, and then shoved down, plummeting through the portal into hell, mortally wounded.
Mitigating issues?
No, he kills people, his human side did the war crimes thing, and as a demon, he...kills a bunch of people, tries to torture others and tries to end the world. It's not exactly the deepest of villains here, but he's well over Dodge who explicitly shows himself to be Gideon's understudy and is terrified of him.
Conclusion?
Yep.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to Gideon. I assume that it's just Show!Dodge that needs to be cut?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I like the Rourke quote as it seems to represent his willingness to sacrifice the city for own profit properly.
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Rourke quote and Gideon
Cut Dodge
"No running in the halls!"
Gideon. Cut Show!Dodge.
the Retromancer
Noticed darkdill added a Complete Monster example to YMMV.Octopath Traveler Champions Of The Continent, I suppose it wasn't discussed anywhere?
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Nope. I think Scraggle'll be handling that, but discussion hasn't yet begun.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Gideon
Cut Dodge
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Gideon
Cut Dodge
Well I think it's obvious Jefferson didn't ACW.
Yes to Gideon and cut Dodge.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Frderick Gideon
After settling the last case I noticed ~Ariel Lightning seems to have put themselves down for discussion for a few works, the only one that really caught my eye being Season 5 for Stranger Things, which Lighty and Scraggs have consistently been handling and I'm sure mentioned would be continuing to do so after Season 4 wrapped up. I'm not sure what's going on but they've never posted in this thread and it's weird we're running into the same issue we just did.
Sorry, but I'm putting my foot down on that one. Honest mistake or not (and I do, for the record, fully believe it's the former—that reservation was made back in July before Lighty and I had officially penned our names down in the page) Lighty and I called that a long while ahead of time.
Edited by Scraggle on Sep 7th 2022 at 3:28:57 AM
Don't blame you... idk what went on here because the troper deleted some of the other improperly reserved stuff. Like I said you and Lighty quite plainly called it.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay: 43, I did a slight modification to your thing, and also played around with the potholes; here's the Black Lightning stuff:
- Season 1: Martin Proctor is the racist in charge of the Freeland operations of the sinister ASA. Repackaging a dangerous vaccine as a drug to circulate within his city to create an army of superpowered pawns, Proctor's plans lead to an epidemic of death while he takes the survivors in for experimentation. Forcing his rival Gambi into surrendering to him by holding a crowd at gunpoint, Proctor expresses sadistic disappointment at Gambi's surrender forcing him to spare their lives. Seeking to ruin hero Jefferson Pierce's reputation, Proctor, when his plans finally fall apart, aims to take the surviving teens from his experiments with him to continue his abominable operations.
- Seasons 2 & 4: The Looker is a metahuman with the power to control minds who enslaves the white population of South Freeland as her "Sange". When called out for her hypocrisy of claiming to have saved the town from a drug epidemic by her mind control being far worse, she casually murders him for questioning her. Viciously prejudiced, the Looker has her slaves hunt down and lynch the town's black population and stops at nothing to hunt down the children of a Sange to ensnare them in her racist, subservient cult.
Also finished the latest In Death book. PM me if you're curious.
Edited by ACW on Sep 7th 2022 at 5:55:03 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
So do we cut the reservations for whoever took Stranger Things season 5 and replace it with Ligty and Scraggle's names since they previously called it?
What about the other reservations of popular works (like the two Avengers movie and Mission Impossible Dead Recon) that were taken, what should we do with those?
Snowy, what say you? Here's taking into account some of 43's suggestions (I haven't done that one sentence yet):
- Eobard Thawne, aka the Reverse-Flash, is the Arch-Enemy of Barry Allen. One night, Thawne fails to kill Barry as a child, instead killing Barry's mother in order to cripple Barry's spirit so he could never become the Flash. Thawne would then find himself stripped of his Super-Speed and be Trapped in the Past, leading him to Kill and Replace Harrison Wells, recreate the STAR Labs Particle Accelerator explosion earlier to recreate the Flash, while also filling Central City with dangerous meta-humans. Defeated by the Flash and robbed of his chance to return to the future, Thawne tried to kill the heroes, but is supposedly erased from existence after his ancestor, Eddie Thawne, kills himself. Managing to survive, Thawne resurfaces, traveling to Earth-X and joining the ranks of the New Reichsmen; assisting in the Nazi invasion of Earth-1, abandoning his allies when the tides turn. Eventually, Thawne would end up incarcerated in the future and scheduled for execution; he manipulated Barry's daughter, Nora West-Allen, into destroying Cicada's dagger—which kept Thawne's powers negated—in the past, which he knew would also erase Nora from existence. Post-Crisis, Thawne returns again, having lost his body, and takes over the body of Nash Wells, trapping his mind in a Psychological Torment Zone, while attempting to murder Team Flash. After Thawne's body is restored, Thawne creates "Reverse-Flashpoint", where he has stolen Barry's life and identity in every way, and has set to erase Barry from existence, which Barry warns him would lead to "Armageddon". Made into the Avatar of the Negative Forces, Thawne uses his newfound powers to go on a killing spree for kicks. Unable to best Barry after he becomes the Positive Force Avatar, Thawne decides the best way to kill his nemesis is to take the entire world down with him.
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