During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Boomer & the Elfes trio
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Dark Matter
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
When it comes to rewrites, I'm not sure the 5-vote rules applies. Go ahead and add it to the Sandbox.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Okay. So here's my idea for a video example of a CM.
This video for The Darkness, mainly 50:10 to 52:00.
To be clear: The Darkness bullies Kaos into proceeding with the utter destruction of Skylands to fulfill his own ambitions of universal domination and making it clear that Kaos is only to be his puppet.
Edited by eruptor142 on Apr 10th 2022 at 5:48:49 AM
The wifi here sucks
No feeling it personally, I can't take it seriously with Kaos' goofy demeanor.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- KAIMA: The seemingly-kind Princess Ezel, supposedly murdered by her brother Prince Vido, was actually a power-hungry tyrant who devoured other demons and their souls for power. Wanting to extend her rule beyond KAIMA, Ezel devoured many souls to gain the power to leave the planet and tried to destroy it before Vido stopped her and sealed her away. Potentially released by heroine Searina and Ezel's former lover Illi, Ezel eats Vido and either makes Illi her servant or orders her to kill Searina, taking Searina as a servant instead should she kill Illi, or attempting to kill them both if they refuse to harm each other.
The Draftsman of Doom
Also, I would like to question if a particular candidate is sufficiently heinous, from Cold Case:
- Roger Mulvaney ruthlessly beats his wife and two daughters and uses his position as a police officer to get away with the abuse. Once his wife decides to leave him for another man he resolves that if he can't have them, nobody could. He kidnaps the three of them and makes his wife watch as he throws one of the girls—only four years old—from a tall bridge.
Not gonna lie, he seems a little lacklustre compared to the other candidates on the page. I would even go so far as to say he is insufficiently heinous next to that one CSI: Miami mom who tried to traffic her own daughter, and was herself insufficiently heinous.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 10th 2022 at 6:30:16 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Apparently it was discussed here (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=4503#comment-112573)
I'm uh...Gonna abstain there, not too sure that is enough myself
The First man
Goku Black
Why are we comparing cold case which has a complety different tone to csi?
The only connection between the two is one crossover where only one cold case person appeared in a csi episode.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Draftsman of Doom
Mir: He still looks kinda unimpressive next to that serial killer, the noncey social worker, and the fatass rapist from the same show.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Three couples seems kinda lame for a body count if accurate, especially next to Gord Daimler. That said, their MO seems somewhat unique.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 10th 2022 at 6:38:14 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Though on that subject, I've LONG wondered if these two count:
- "Assume Nothing": Mandy and Cameron Klinefeld put the "unholy" back in Unholy Matrimony. A married couple united by a shared sexual fetish for rape and murder, the pair operate by abducting other husbands and wives, sexually torturing the women while making the men watch, with the ultimate goal of forcing them to Mercy Kill the women they love. They promise the husbands they can go free if they do this, but they're lying.
Seems bad, but according to this they have a low body count.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Didn't we thoroughly talk about those guys?
The First man
Goku Black
Acw do not bring this up. We already discussed this. After you brought it up..
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't see an issue. Cold case has a fairly low standard than CSI. Even serial killer guy only has three victims. Mulvaney also has the lowest aged victim in the show.
Edited by miraculous on Apr 10th 2022 at 3:38:51 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Draftsman of Doom
Re: Kleinfeld: I mean, they may only have an attempted body count of 6, but their MO is relatively unique.
If I'm going against established consensus regarding Roger, I will go with whatever consensus is.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 10th 2022 at 6:46:04 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Not sure what happened with the last discussion but the names do ring a bell. If what mir says is accurate ACW please make effort to recall characters you've asked about. I know you get tentative about things but if we keep retreading discussions for the same reason it starts to look like things can just be questioned again and again for settled reason because one troper doesn't think they quite make it.
I remember discussion on the Klinefields. Pretty sure they were regarded as kept. Likewise with Mulvaney...I questioned him back in the day, and the fact is he attempts to murder all three of his very young daughters plus his wife—his victims are the youngest in his show period, save an infant who died accidentally.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 10th 2022 at 5:56:30 AM
Goku Black
He also forced his wife to watch it. Which is the thing that pushed him over for me personally.
That was truly depraved comprised to anyone else from the show.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Also, I got a candidate from a visual novel (The Unforgiving Flowers Blossom in the Dead of Night) that I'm not really sold on...
- "Mesomeso-san": Yoshihito Kanamori started as the homeroom teacher of Marie Moriya, a young girl bullied by her classmates. He used to defend her from the bullies, until the stress of his job got to him and he started to take his stress out on Marie. His supplementary lessons include molesting her and putting it on camera. When Marie gathered up enough courage to stand up to him, he strangles her to death, singing her a song about graduation from life to death while doing so, then dumps her corpse in the old school's septic tank. He also considered murdering other children when he thought that they were eavesdropping. When he encounters Marie's spirit in the restroom, he gives her a long "The Reason You Suck" Speech about her not going to the police to report on him while she was still alive and called her an imbecile who couldn't fend for herself. He then opens the door to one of the bathroom stalls, and upon finding that Marie has apparently physically manifested, he tries to strangle Marie a second time. When the deed was seemingly done, he proceeds to rape the corpse when he notices it was still there. While he claims that he did all this out of love for Marie, it's ultimately proven hollow.
Kanamori is a genuine scumfuck. He rapes a junior high student, kills her, and he's totally unrepentant over it all. My issue is the heinous standard. Raping and murdering a little girl might push you over the baseline...it's fucking gross. What I draw issue with, however, is the fact this visual novel gleefully uses the Karmic Rape trope against a far less nastier villain, and has Higanbana, one of the heroes perpetrate it (Higanbana is a total Anti-Hero, but she's treated as a hero nonetheless in spite of her often-horrific methods).
Basically, in "Hamelin's Castinets," we're introduced to bully villain Hikaru Nihei who tortures bunnies he knows are actually humans in revenge for being bullied himself. He's pretty awful, but his Karmic Rape fate is beyond the pale: Higanbana turns him into a rabbit himself, then leaves him in a field full of rabbits while noting they're all going to want to breed with him. And then she leaves him as he's about to experience the rabbit rape train while he wants to scream but literally can't...
TL;DR: one of the heroes transforms a villain into a rabbit and makes him experience gang-rape in as pure a state in And I Must Scream as can be. Higanbana has a pattern of Cruel and Unusual Death, too; this is just the nastiest it gets. I don't care how fucking nasty or unjustified Kanamori is; he's not hitting our standard. Quite frankly, I'm dubious the other listed qualifier from the series—the child-torturing Mad Artist actually hits the standard as he's not even a rapist (though he does have more victims than Kanamori).
This literally isn't even the only isolated instance of rape, either. The Big Bad of the novel, Sumire of the Twilight, masterminds all of the game's misery and at one point, and her Mind Rape reaches the point of no return when she nearly influences the bullies into raping Yukari.
Long story short: cut Kanamori. When not only other villains but the heroes are resorting to nasty rape as a means of punishment? He badly fails the standard. And I'm totally willing to put up a case against the other villain, too.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 10th 2022 at 6:36:15 AM
Sometimes that's all you need, if it's something twistedly unique like Mike Logan from Lupin III having a scene where he murders his screaming little kid so he can duck out from dying of cancer then I'm inclined to say the pure impact speaks for itself.
Ohhhhhh... The bunny rape VN! Sure, cut the CM lol
Edited by 43110 on Apr 10th 2022 at 8:37:51 AM
Cut.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
The other qualifier for instance:
- Renoir of the Art Room: Nafumi Shintani was an art room teacher who seemed to be a Cool Teacher, given her popularity among the young male students. In reality, Nafumi was a prolific child molester who got off on the suffering of young boys, deeming it as beautiful. To this end, she invites young boys into the art room, and she would offer them cups of drug-laced tea, after which she would proceed to torture their unconscious bodies with cigarettes and palette knives. In addition to this, she had dozens of sketches of abused boys in her desk. One of her past victims, Yuuki Noda, loved his teacher to the point that he allowed her to abuse him if it meant his feelings for her were returned. Eventually, Yuuki tried to escape her, but she grabbed his shoulder, which caused him to trip and fall underneath a table, resulting in a heavy bust falling on his head. A week later, she drugged and attempted to torture another boy, but she was stopped by the titular Renoir of the Art Room note . She expressed zero remorse for being indirectly responsible for Yuuki's death, stating that he was a "stupid kid" who deserved to die. Depraved and perverted, Shintani repeatedly showed that she cared only for herself and her lusts.
Tortures kids, accidentally kills one. Again, fucking nasty, but given how positively fucked this VN's standard is? I think we're okay cutting him as well. The one and only defense you could make is the amount of victims he's attained, but I'm not necessarily sure non-lethal torture stands out against the rest of the casual rape, murder and torture—in a high school setting, mind you (a high school setting infested with ghosts, yes, but still!).
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 10th 2022 at 6:42:28 AM
Goku Black
Oh the bunny rape VN. Yeah that can we can cut.
Like when the heroes are doing it....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Professor Gigachad
Cut both of them. When the heroes are doing crimes like this it is hard to see the setting isn't too fucked up for anyone to stand out as "heinous"
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Yeah, I was gonna say, she seems to:
- Torture young boys while they're unconscious
- One seems to come to her conscious to allow her to keep abusing him
- May or may not be responsible for his (death? injury? concussion?)... writeup makes what happens to him unclear/if she intended for it to happen.
Easy enough cut as well.
Lizzid people!
Alright; I guess they can be cut now that I'm relooking into it.
By the way, I got four upvotes on my Ezel trim
. ~ACW, am I good to put it in the drafts or do I need one more upvote?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.