Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Sure to Doom and Shirong.
I added a header to the Tekken Sandbox, by the by. It needs some formatting and I'm bad at that. I Am Always Making Red Links, For One Thing.
Jogo
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
GRP-002-A and Shirong and another version of Doom!note
Not the Eye
another Dr Doom
Goku Black
Anyone got a description for totally spies as well be good to launch after that.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not the Eye
How does this look:
Across their many missions, Sam, Clover and Alex have faced variety of wacky and fun villains. Some however menage to stand above the rest in inteligence and cunning.
Goku Black
Good. Add. I'll launch the page tommorw and ask whenever in charge to lock it.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not the Eye
Done, added quote as well while I was at it.
to Shirong and Doctor Doom.
The wifi here sucks
- A Hat in Time: The Conductor and DJ Grooves are a pair of eccentric rival film directors who rope Hat Kid into their latest competition for the annual Bird Movie Awards. Fashioning Hat Kid into the star of their latest films, the Conductor stages a fake murder for footage while Grooves runs a PR campaign to boost her popularity. For the climax of their movies, the two put Hat Kid through bombastic, dangerous, challenges. Whichever one wins the Award then steals a Time Piece in order to go back in time and make it so they’ve won every award, with the loser informing Hat Kid of the betrayal so she’ll stop him. When confronted, the winner utilizes various props in combat before stopping the fight to earnestly try to win Hat Kid over, only to use the opportunity to plant a bomb on her which the loser manages to defuse. When Mustache Girl steals the Time Pieces to judge everyone, the directors put aside their differences and sacrifice themselves to help Hat Kid defeat her and, when brought back, beg Hat Kid to stay on the planet and remain their friend.
Okay, I’m finally getting around to this. In the collaboration for Umineko MB’s with Newton (that I agreed to years ago, god I’m bad at this), I’m gonna do the leading lady Beatrice herself. Also, I would be remiss not to mention that a large part of the EP is written by Newton, so credit goes to them for the bulk of the description of Beato.
Who is Beatrice?
Beatrice is the deuteragonist of Umineko, and the main antagonist for the first half of the series. She is the mastermind and the Game Master of the Rokkenjima murders. In truth, she is Sayo Yasuda, a maid working at the Ushiromiya manor. In the story, she takes on the identities of three different people (Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice), and she hides it so well that nobody figures out that she is all three except for Kinzo, who only figures it out due to noticing that she had a surgical scar on her foot, a sign that she had six toes just like he did and coming to the conclusion that she is his child.
Actually Kinzo's bastard child via incenstual rape, hidden by his servants after she was nearly killed by Natsuhi in rage as a baby, leaving her barely alive. Protecting her from Natsuhi and Kinzo, Sayo was adopted and made a servant, where she was isolated, awakening her unusual imagination to mastermind mysteries to pranks. Falling for Battler after a promise to take her away, Sayo did her best to be his ideal woman, but couldn't, with stunted growth leading to a complex. It became worse after she solved Kinzo's riddle, as this causes him to name her as his inheritor, along with him telling her her true heritage and origin. These revelations, combined with her existing complex and learning she can't have children, broke her. She tried to move on with her engagement to George, only to fall deeper into self-loathing when she learns that she’s related to everyone she’s in love with, and finding out Battler forgot her. This leads to her masterminding the Rokkenjima murders. It ends tragically when Kyrie and Rudolf executed the island's residence for Sayo's gold, which she anticipated, but due to her feelings of guilt, ending up committing suicide after she and Battler escaped, manifesting her and the rest of the victims in the Golden Land after her deal with Lambdadelta, Witch of Certainty.
Beato is the mastermind of the Rokkenjima murders, as well as Battler’s first opponent for the Question Arcs. She challenges Battler to solve the mysteries of Rokkenjima, and proceeds to quickly and easily break him down through the events of Episode 2. He gives up at the end of the Episode, only to come back in a second wind at the very last minute. In Episode 3, she comes up with a plan with her mentor Virgilia to make Battler let his guard down and admit witches exist, by portraying herself as someone who doesn’t understand that her actions are wrong and giving him a more vile opponent to face for the game. In Episode 4, while Battler does ultimately defeat her, she essentially throws the game, and all of the theories Battler makes could have easily been destroyed by her. At the conclusion of Episode 6, she returns in top form to easily and effortlessly destroy Erika’s arguments, completely destroying the trap that Erika had laid for Battler without ever being backed into a corner. It's revealed Beato's master plan is to have Battler understand the truth, leading him to the Golden Truth, securing their happily ever after, and overcoming his own issues.
Having humiliated Bernkastel in her defeat in Episode 6, Bernkastel planned revenge by destroying the Golden Land using Ange to unlock the Book of One Truth, consuming it to the darkness of the Truth's of the Future. Beatrice with Battler tried to counter it, nearly doing so in her fight with Ange, but failing from Battler's own flaws cornering Ange. Getting her from the Sea of Oblivion, Beatrice is able to get Ange to move from Bern's tricks and get her to continue living, using her tragedy as an example, pointing out her fate. Able to break through, Beatrice stays defending the Golden Land from Bern's forces, delaying Erika by making it look like the group has been split, doing so until Gohda makes a mistake. Revealing the ruse, Beatrice defended the Golden Land till her last breath, fighting Erika in a Last Stand.
Seemingly destroyed in the Golden Land, Beatrice survived thanks to Ange, having trusted her, allowing her resurrection and everyone else, taunting Bernkastel after her seeming victory. With the rest, the Ushiromiya's defeat Bernkastel, ending with Beatrice and Battler reconciling with Ange after gaining Featherine's respect to turn away from their business, giving her the choice of Magic or Trick, letting her decide her fate after she leaves the Golden Land. Ending with Trick, Ange ends up falling to a path like Erika which while Beato didn't like respects her choice, but in the Magic End, she reunites with Battler and the rest in the Golden Land achieving their eternal happiness, ending her thousand year wait.
Too Bad?
She’s the mastermind of a series of a 16 person murder-suicide plan that she repeats over and over again (including a nine year old and the three people she’s in love with), so she’s definitely a bastard. She doesn’t hesitate in trying to break Battler’s spirit, as well as whoever else is opposing her.
She isn’t too much of a bastard, however. While she does want to murder 16 people, many of them are horrible people in their own right. Additionally, her interactions with Maria are purely Pet the Dog moments. While Maria will also die at the end of the day, Beato does truly care for her, and she always leaves Maria to the end when the game is under her control. Additionally, her Start of Darkness is a DEVASTATING Trauma Conga Line that just breaks her will to live entirely. She also undergoes a Heel–Face Turn halfway through the story, becoming a protagonist against the true villain Bernkastel.
Magnificence?
Absolutely. She planned a very elaborate murder, she acts as three completely different people with almost nobody noticing, and in her interactions as Beatrice, she sells her intelligence with complete confidence, often running circles around both Battler and Erika, both very intelligent people in their own right (if a bit too narrow-minded in their thinking). Her gift in masterminding murders have impressed Lambda to give her domain in the Meta-World having created an infinite Catbox through her method in planning the Rokkenjima murders.
There are glimmers of it even in a young age, fooling the logical Gohda into believing Beatrice, having used his logical process against him, using a mix of illogical actions to mystify him on her ritual prank and his perceptions of Genji to fool him completely, leading him to think the culprit is Beatrice.
Her greatest gift putting her ahead of other MB candidates is her ability to adapt her vivid logic into facing any adversary; mastering trickery, perception manipulation, creativity, and clever word play. Whoever her opponent, she’s able to run circles on anyone with her “magic”.
Mitigating Factors?
I think the biggest mitigating factor with Beato is that she does fail in her goal in the truth of Rokkenjima. Her actual murder plan failed completely, being stopped before it could start by all of Kinzo’s children and their spouses solving the mystery of the Epitaph and finding her. However, I don’t feel that this would hurt her too much because she WANTS to be caught. She doesn’t want to go through with this, and she intentionally left holes in her plan as a result. While she doesn’t get caught by the person she wanted to find her, she does still get to confess everything to him.
A secondary mitigating factor would be that it’s very unclear how much of the story actually happens. All of the Episodes we see are contained in message bottles written by either Sayo herself or Battler, so the only thing that we know truly happens is the flashback scenes, the scenes depicted in Confession of the Golden Witch, and the Episode 7 Tea Party. It’s entirely possible that all of the scenes we see of her magnificence are fiction written by her, and may not necessarily reflect reality. But there are also interpretations that the Episodes do happen. It’s deliberately vague, but might make a decent argument for her not being a contender.
Final Verdict:
In my opinion, I think that if any character in Umineko deserves the title of Magnificent Bastard, it’s Beatrice. Even in spite of the mitigating factors, I think that she’s a perfect candidate. There is no character more magnificent or more intelligent in the story.
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
I don't know about Umineko, so for now, I'm a Beatrice.
And while Tekken write ups are soon to come, first
My Magnum Opus:
- The New Guardians: Snowflame, in his original appearance, is a bombastic, hammy Colombian Drug Lord that gains superpowers from snorting Cocaine. Encountering the New Guardians, he warns them to leave his jungle before Ram attacks him. Easily defeating Ram while relishing the fight, Snowflame declares that he has other matters to attend to, revealing that he "never travels" the jungle alone and having his men ambush and apparently gun down the New Guardians. Snowflame orders his men to bury the heroes with their full affects because in "his jungle" he respects the dead. When the New Guardians ambush him at his compound Snowflame turns the tables by snorting a whole heap of cocaine and siccing his drugged out posse that worships him and cocaine as divine on them. An absurd concept played so straight it circles back to awe-inspiring, Snowflame is the most fondly remembered aspect of an otherwise forgotten book.
honestly I'm surprised he went over so well considering his infamy.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Mar 9th 2024 at 2:53:04 AM
Goku Black
Beatrice
The MILF Virus
Clarifying even if the events are fictional, the narrative still fits that Beato is an Magnificent Bastard. Even not It's ambigious if it's Sayo or Tohya creating these stories, either way the narrative doesn't change Beato's magnificence, considering all the other approve characters could be fictional but narratively are still qualified.
I believe it's all real, with side story and later works, and the canonical manga story with"Confession of the Golden Witch" implied it's deal from Sayo and Lambda when Sayo's endless story of her murders attracted Lambda who made a deal to take her the Meta-World with everyone else.
Anyone here know where I can propose images? Got amazing MB ones with Beatrice.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Mar 9th 2024 at 6:55:43 PM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Beatrice.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
to Beatrice the Memetic Troll
The Moron
Welp, either I didn't submit this writeup or it got caught in a glitch, but either way, here's a months overdue writeup:
- Saw and Saw 3D: Dr. Lawrence Gordon is introduced as a trap victim before becoming John Kramer's most valuable asset and ally. After sawing off his own foot and shooting his fellow victim Adam to save his family, Lawrence is rescued by John and indoctrinated into the Jigsaw ideology. For years, Lawrence uses his medical expertise to facilitate John's traps, such as surgically planting a key behind Michael Marks' eye, sewing shut the mouth and eyes of Art Blank and Trevor, and suggesting Lynn Denlon's skills to keep John alive for Jeff Denlon's game. Staying so hidden that even Jigsaw's other apprentices don't know he's involved, Lawrence continues following John's orders after his death, sending a letter to Mark Hoffman to scare him and following his orders to avenge Jill following her death; to do so, Lawrence recruits Brad and Ryan, kidnaps Hoffman before he can escape, and locks him in the same bathroom he was tested in with no way to escape, ending the series as the only one involved in the Jigsaw killings still alive.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Cool, though where exactly should he go in the Saw tree order-wise?
Edited by Rhino8888 on Mar 9th 2024 at 7:50:43 PM
Jogo
Beatrice
The Moron
I'm gonna say in-between John and Logan - only two appearances and the first was in the very first movie.
Goku Black
Totally Spies! is launched. Now let me put it in the sandbox. And go to locked pages to get it locked.
Edited by miraculous on Mar 9th 2024 at 11:43:42 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
Just finished Kung Fu Panda 4. If anyone is willing to PM me for details, go ahead.
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
to Beatrice the Golden Witch. We've had in-universe only keepers (see Cartoon Lord Hater) and Memetic Troll characters (Abridged Alucard comes to mind and he's way worse) count in the past. As long as she would otherwise count and is charismatic enough (which I believe she is), she's a Magnificent Bastard.
I'm also fine with Snowflame (in his debut) being listed and the Totally Spies page (we've had crazier franchises have pages before).
Edited by Idisagree on Mar 9th 2024 at 4:00:25 AM
The MILF Virus
Anyone know where I can propose MB images? Got some for Beatrice.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Mar 9th 2024 at 9:43:44 PM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
for Beatrice.
You can propose them here and then later take them to Image Pickin for whichever page they would fit, which would be Visual Novels in this case. Personally, I like the third one.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
GRP-002-A, Shirong, and Doom
In honor of Akira Toriyama