Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
RIP Toriyama
Here's my proposal from Marvel's Spider-Man 2, one of my fav characters making a return from the first game:
Who is Yuri Watanabe? What makes her a candidate?
- Introduced in the first game as Spider-Man's The Commissioner Gordon on the NYPD, Captain Yuriko "Yuri" Watanabe is, for most of the game, a simple Cowboy Cop who feeds Spider-Man intel, offers what help she can with the cops, and has hilarious banter with the hero annoying her while she tries to maintain her sanity from it lmao.
- Come the DLC of the first game, though, Yuri goes to a dark, dark place. Hammerhead and his Maggia gang start tearing up New York City, killing and torturing many cops under Yuri's purview and driving Yuri into rage. Yuri winds up arming up and utterly slaughtering her way through Hammerhead's goons, swearing vengeance on the don while leaving a path of destruction in her wake. A horrified Spidey tries to stop Yuri from damning herself, but Yuri refuses to let Hammerhead get away with "simple" prison time and shoots him pointblank in the head, seemingly killing him and getting Yuri booted from the police.
- Though Hammerhead survived the murder attempt, Yuri continues to damage his outfit—she uses a therapist to learn secrets from one of Hammerhead's chiefest professional killers, recording their conversations and leaving them for Spider-Man to find as the killer is shown to be an utter piece of shit. When the killer discovered the truth and murdered the therapist, Yuri tracked him down, executed him, and strung his body up for Spider-Man to find. She contacts her former ally once more to inform him that she is tired of letting monsters like Hammerhead get away with their crimes, and is going to take matters into her own hands going forward.
- By the time of the 2nd game, Yuri has fully immersed herself in a costumed vigilante persona known as "Wraith". She stalks and monitors the cult of the Flame for a long while, determined to take down its monstrous leader the Flame. Wraith winds up running into Spidey again and helps him dismantle the cult, though they have a parting of ways when Wraith runs into a "trap" by the Flame—that she pretty easily curbstomps her way out of, nearly killing the Flame before Spidey interferes, not wanting Wraith to draw blood. Wraith duels Spidey to try to kill the Flame, but the Flame manages to slip away while the two are fighting.
- An angry Wraith chastises Spider-Man, remarking that she'd "rather lose sleep over one person I killed than all the ones I didn't save." She tracks down the Flame as he is attempting to enact the final phase of his plan and begins disrupting his operation, eventually running into Spider-Man again. In the ensuing chaos, they discover the Flame plans to ram a train into an explosives-laden truck and wipe out a neighborhood, so Wraith comes up with the idea to derail the train using the explosives against it, saving the neighborhood.
- Spider-Man winds up buried under rubble and left to burn alive by the Flame while he gets away with his objective from the train, a piece of the Venom symbiote—and though Yuri has an opportunity to go after and take down the Flame once and for all, she chooses to save Spider-Man instead, remarking "I told you, I'm trying to save the most lives. And you still do that pretty well." Wraith promises to hunt down the Flame and inform Spidey when she does, so they can stop him for good next time.
Is she magnificent?
In the first game and DLC, she's getting there. She's a lovable, kickass cop who goes down a dark path and fucks Hammerhead's outfit right up, nearly killing the man himself and only being prevented from finishing him because of Spider-Man's interference. She becomes a vigilante and picks off further criminals while keeping Spidey 2 steps behind her with recordings and phone calls...and by the second game, she's gone fully into badass superheroics as she disrupts the Flame's cult both solo and with Spidey's help, fights the hero with...surprising success, and ultimately saves the neighborhood from the Flame's initial plot—while the Flame gets away with his objective, it's only because Yuri takes time to save Spidey, and even then she's confident she'll find the Flame to take him down.
Is she a bitch?
While Yuri's targets are criminals and fully deserve what she gives them, she's also extremely ruthless with the lives of simple mooks—beating them for info or ditching several of them to die in a collapsing building while Spidey struggles to save them, Yuri remarking "They made their choice."—and even when the cult has imprisoned several innocents, Yuri is very much not focused on saving them as opposed to finding and killing the Flame, and she has to be coerced into it by Spidey. Plus when Spidey gets in her way, she fights him with brutal attempts to take him down. So yeah, she's fighting monsters, but she's also flippant enough with lives to hit this.
Final Verdict?
Yep!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Woagh
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Yuri/Wraith.
to Yuri Watanabe.
Goku Black
wraith
Not the Eye
So sorry: a long-overdue writeup on Polina.
- Trace, "The Last Tour": Polina Lebyazhskaya is an elderly actress who learns that Christina, the wife of her grandson Oleg, cheats on the latter with Polina's son-in-law Vasily, which almost leads to the suicide of Polina's daughter Yelena. Enraged, Polina decides to kill Christina and destroy her squeaky-clean reputation. Forging a note from Vasily, Polina lures Christina to a cheap motel doubling as a brothel and, in a disguise, obtains a sample of semen of one of the brothel's clients. Posing as a deliveryman, Polina brings Christina BDSM supplies and drugged liquor, and later, dressed up as another man, kills the sleeping Christina, placing the semen on her body. She calls the police herself at once in an altered voice to make sure Christina's Undignified Death isn't hushed up by the brothel. Found out only thanks to obscure and hard-to-analyze clues, Polina accepts her defeat calmly, only asking that her grandson is never told about his wife and father cuckolding him.
Yes to the Spider trio, great work guys!
Got a new one as well.
What's the work?
True Grit's a John Wayne-lead Western. Rooster Cogburn, Wayne's character, is an older, violent and not-particularly-well-manned bounty hunter but young Mattie Ross sees something in him after needing to recruit help to avenge her father's killing by their scummy farm hand, Tom Chaney. Unfortunately, Chaney has linked up with the dangerous "Lucky" Ned Pepper and his gang and his boss won't make the hunt easy.
Who is Pepper? What has he done?
Hiding out in Aboriginal territory, he's a well-known crook and the Texas Ranger La Boeuf has also been trying unsuccessfully to bring him in to be hanged. Venturing into Pepper's territory, the group find and interrogate some of his men, who reveal Pepper is due to their hideout for a deal. The next day, however, the cunning Pepper is suspicious and winds up making a jumpy La Boeuf fire off his gun, killing Pepper's horse but giving him the chance to flee with much of his gang.
Later on, Mattie is caught by Chaney and brought back to Pepper. Revealing himself surprisingly affably, he orders Chaney to keep her away from her companions but not harm her. In the ensuing fight, Mattie winds up rescued by La Boeuf while Rooster and Pepper confront one-another. After a great exchange of dialogue, Pepper charges Rooster along with his men on horseback, guns blazing. Pepper is hit in the chest but retains the strength to fire off one last round. Before he can, a dying La Boeuf uses the last of his own strength to kill the outlaw, setting up the final confrontation with his underling Chaney.
Actions and personality?
He doesn't so much have "redeeming qualities" as he is very pragmatic and Affably Evil. He's polite to Mattie, respects her strength and while it's not out of mortality, he orders Chaney to keep her unharmed for things to proceed as smoothly as possible. The guy's a talented gunfighter, a cunning crook and he's evaded the law as one of the most dangerous men in the West for years.
Mitigating factors?
He's noted to abandon one of his men after his horse is shot but Pepper shows he's no coward. There was no point in staying when the heroes had a sniping location on him and later he happily fights Rooster to the death.
Verdict?
A classic keep.
Rooster himself lands easily if someone doesn't mind suffering through the sequel for a John Wayne!
Goku Black
Pepper
Are you checking his remake version too
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Naw, I'm happy with the original.
Yep to Wraith aka Yuri, voiced by Yuri Lowenthal's wife.
Yeah also to Pepper.
OK I'm gonna give this one a try. The Starter Villain of the entire Spider-Man Insomniac Series and Peter's Arch-Enemy until he finally brought him down - yet his influence continues to be felt. I give you all:
Wilson Fisk.
The Kingpin of Crime.
Who is he? What has he done?
Fisk has been Peter’s big (heh) target for just about all his career. Evading incrimination throughout their entanglement, the Police finally attempt a raid on Fisk Tower. Fisk however orders his men to defend the premises - while buying time to destroy evidence so he can claim innocence. Alas for him, Spidey is not gonna let this opportunity slide, and after a grand battle, defeats and apprehends Fisk. But Fisk simply yells, angry and defiant, how he keeps the criminals in the city in order, and that someone worse will take his place - and if you've kept up with this series you might be inclined to agree what with guys like Mr Negative and Hammerhead wreaking havoc.
Even from Prison, Fisk has influence, able to communicate with his goons from his cell thanks to bribes and alliances he made for just the occasion of being arrested. He even manages to speak to Spidey, telling him he won't help him figure out who’s behind "The Inner Demons" unless he saves his men from them, and even when Spidey puts down the last of his "Fisk Hideouts" he is unmoved; Spidey can inconvenience him but he cannot take down all sources of the Kingpin's revenue. And Kingpin has a long memory. Especially for revenge.
Come Miles Morales, Miles discovers numerous attempts at devaluing and pushing out people from Harlem Properties. Turns out Fisk is trying to buy out territory there to get a new foothold to generate revenue to pay his legal fees - foiled by Miles and the money for the goons and property found, Kingpin attempts revenge by destroying a local gathering, but this is also stopped by Miles. Miles is confident that Fisk won't be able to pay his legal fees now - and for the time being, Kingpin remains in Prison, having not even turned up in Spider-Man 2… yet.
Is he Magnificent? A Bastard?
It's Kingpin. He's doing his typical Kingpin stuff. Is behind murder, theft, extortion etc. One of his more dog kicky crimes is targeting the vulnerable communities of Harlem for his own selfish gain. Still, he's clever, with being taken into custody not even entirely releasing NYC from his grip, remaining a thorn in the Spider-Men's sides. He planned ahead and did not go down without a fight.
Some goons even comment how Kingpin rewards loyalty, so they don't really fear prison. As long as they are loyal to Fisk, he'll look after them. And you can find a picture of his family, suggesting his most humanising trait remains.
Depending on your own views you might even agree with his assertion things will become worse without him, despite the games ultimately proving Peter and Miles right.
Conclusion
This was shorter than I expected, but I'll give a yes. Thoughts?
Collector of Worlds
to Wraith. And a to Wilson Fisk too.
Does anyone think Kraven could count in the game?
Edited by MemeMaster245 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 1:13:30 PM
I will claim what is rightfully mine, and rebuild the Kryptonian Empire.
Goku Black
Kingpin
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh I did Mr negative and polar did Kraven last page
Edited by miraculous on Nov 3rd 2023 at 6:15:35 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Wraith and Kingpin
to Pepper and Kingpin.
Edited by MGD107 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 8:07:14 AM
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Well with Stampy's Lovely World wrapped up I think there’s enough credits here to give this Effort Post of her a try. Spoilers for the series Let’s do this.
What’s The Work?
Stampy's Lovely World is a old long running web series created by Joseph Garret. It centers around Stampy Cat, lovable pacifist and cake loving anthropomorphic cat, where he lives in the Sugar Bowl “Stampy’s Lovely World” where he and his friends, his lovely helpers, play games, build and adventure, however, things aren’t always good as two threats always come to try and take their home and ruin their fun forever. Hit The Target now just…no, but we have the other.
Who is She? What Does She Do?
Veeva Dash is the former secondary antagonist of the series. She initially appeared as a quiet yet nice girl who works as Stampy’s Helper. However it’s revealed that Veeva Dash is actually the partner in crime and girlfriend of Hit The Target, who is helping with his goals of taking over Stampy’s Lovely World. After tricking Stampy and gaining his trust, the episode “Friends of Foes” lure him to the evil base before releasing a wither to kill Stampy and flee with Hit The Target, with Stampy only saved from William Beaver.
After that, Veeva Dash works as a grunt and brains behind the operations of Hit The Target’s villainous actions. Throughout the story, Veeva Dash creates grand machinery to take over and destroy Stampy and his world, creating a giant laser, a mind control device to brainwash Stampy’s helpers to kidnap Stampy’s dogs, a machine to stop and reverse time, and even making a robot Polly to replace a kidnapped Polly Reindeer. She also manages to work her skills as The Cracker, she hacks into Stampy’s teleported to send him into a dungeon while they kidnap the dogs quickly, and even manages to hack INTO the world itself, the in-universe world and stripping Stampy of his privileges to kidnap Stampy’s Dogs. With that, she shows to be an expert at potion making, using an invisibility potion when cornered in one episode.
In the episode “Helpless” Veeva Dash uses a parrot to mimic the sounds of Stampy’s dogs, luring Stampy to a trap where he is surrounded by lava. When Veeva Dash is accidentally shoved into the lava by a zombie, she manages to use a fire resistance potion to save herself, before she and Stampy reach a truce and get themselves out of the lava pit.
While Veeva Dash appears to reject any attempts at redemption, it’s revealed by the finale that after it, Veeva Dash attempted to warn Stampy in secrete of all the evil schemes Hit The Target had plans through letters. In the finale during Stampy and Hit The Target’s clashing, Veeva Dash splashes a invisibility potion, all but stated to have not been an accident due to Veeva Dash wanting to help Stampy, which leads to Stampy getting away. After Stampy decides to give up his lovely world in protection, he offers a chance to Veeva Dash to leave, which she seemingly declines. However, during the final shot where Stampy and all his friends and loved ones leave the Lovely World for good, Veeva Dash is seen with her parrot, abandoning Hit The Target and fully redeeming herself as she goes to a new adventure with Stampy and the others.
Is She Magnificent? Any Issues?
I’s say so. Veeva Dash is the definite Brans of the operation, being responsible for the grand schemes and creating the machinery towards their schemes, managing to create grand lasers, a device that can pause and reverse time, a robot version of Polly, and managing to HACK into the In-Universe Fourth Wall to strip Stampy’s of his abilities. She also used a parrot to lure Stampy into a trap expertly and hack into Stampy’s teleported. With that, Veeva Dash is an expert potion master, managing to pull an invisibility potion when pushed in a corner and quickly uses a lava resistance potion to prevent getting killed.
While having some slip ups, such as almost accidentally eating a poison potion and some moments of Stampy taunting Veeva Dash and Hit The Target, these moments are extremely brief as she stays a pretty intelligent foe through out the story.
And by the end of the story, Veeva Dash attempts to give warnings towards Stampy and uses a invisibility potion to save Stampy’s life and in the end of the story, leaves Hit The Target and redeems herself properly as she walks with Stampy and the others to a new adventure.
Is She A Bitch? Is she too much?
Absolutely so. She’s fully complicit in the schemes of Hit The Target, creating things such as the giant lasers, mind control devices, time reversing devices, and various other contraptions used to try and take over Stampy’s world, and endangering many of the inhabitants of the Lovely World. However, I think in comparison to the vindictive, sadistic and hot tempered Hit The Target, Veeva Dash has a lot more humanizing moments, without added sadistic Kick the Dog moments in comparison to him, and in the end, redeems herself to join Stampy.
Verdict?
Well, personally I think she just edges out enough.
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Yes to Veeva.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Yuri, Pepper, Kingpin, Veeva
Lies and Violence!
Ning, Mr. Negative, Kraven the Hunter, Wraith, Kingpin, Pepper, and Veeva.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Pepper, Kingpin, and Veeva.
I am not going to be able to do the swaps today as my computer broke and the replacement won't be here until Sunday. Sorry guys.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 3rd 2023 at 12:48:25 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
veeva
Ultimate Moral Compass
Spider quad, Pepper, and Veeva
- Monster Killer (2011): Genjiro Mishima is an old, stoic cop who wishes to kill every monster in Tokyo in order to protect its citizens, willing to get his hands dirty to accomplish his goals. Hunting down vampire matriarch Masayo Mitarai for murdering his entire family, while hoping to also kill her half-vampire daughter Sayoko, Mishima has innocent witnesses killed in order to keep the monsters a secret from the public, even killing his own officers to keep the truth from spreading. Winning several fights against vampires despite his lack of powers, Mishima manipulates events so that his weakest officer Tetsuo leads him to Masayo’s lair, leading to him and his men massacring every vampire inside. Ready to kill the fully powered Sayoko after beating her, Mishima is only stopped by Tetsuo’s divine intervention, with Mishima using his final breath to praise Tetsuo for finally showing strength.
Easy![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
to Mister Negative and Kraven.