Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Silver. I'm assuming Dr. Livesey doesn't qualify as bastard enough.
I'm afraid the Good Doctor is as far from a bastard as he could get.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Not the Eye
to Silver
Jaded Techie Fox
to Dignam, Harley Quinn, Skylor, Frank, and Long John Silver
Yes to Frank
Are we okay to discuss a recap, side by side of the Dukes stuff btw?... Not typically how we do things but I'd just like to have it all together for best comparison.
I don't know exactly how to do that and might not have the time if it would requrie more than copying and pasting. I am open to the idea, though.
The wifi here sucks
- "Danger on the Hazard Express": Burke and Perry are train robbers who scheme to help Boss Hogg rob a train by using a car that Perry can steer remotely to ram the train and knock it off the tracks and then rob the baggage car. When the Duke boys interfere with their practice run and wreck the heist car, Burke scares them away with his rifle before they can inspect the wreck. The two men then steal the Dukes’ car, both to use it as their new heist car and to try to keep the Dukes from interfering with their future plans. Despite showing little regard for innocent life, the two men are cunning, good-humored, respectful to Boss, and have a Villainous Friendship with each other and their accomplice, Carney.
Just meant I was encouraging discussion to compare. I wouldn't want for you to have to repost all your EPs.
Ok.
Should I repost the past Dukes candidates now (or never if you think they have no chance), wait until later for that, or post other works in between.
I wanted to do an interesting one tonight. This is a very unique case where I'm doing an incarnation of an already approved character from the same story, but where the different form of media vastly changes how the character is presented. A couple months back, I did an effort post of the Music, titular villain from the Discworld novel Soul Music. That novel also happened to have an Animated Adaptation which doesn't change what the Music does per se, but going from words to animation with sound completely changes the actual presentation of the entity. The animation can be found on Youtube, so I'll leave it below. I'll post some timestamps of some of the musical scenes below for perusal for anyone wanting to check it out.
What is the Music?
I'm not going to fully write out what the Music does as I covered that in my previous effort post right here. I will give a very short rundown here just to remind everyone of the main plot elements surrounding the Music before going more into the changes the adaptation makes.
The Music is an entity born from the power chord that started the universe, and a little bit of it resonates in the souls of all living things. The Music travels through the cosmos going from world to world spreading Rock and Roll wherever it can, even if said world may not necessarily be ready for the awesome power that comes with Rock music. Young bard Imp y Celyn swears to be the greatest musician who ever lived, and the Music answers his call. Imp forms a band alongside dwarven horn player Glod Glodson and troll drummer Flint and they eventually have a disastrous concert at a local bar where Imp would have been accidentally killed by a heckling axe thrower. The Music takes over at the point of Imp's death and possesses him and the band whenever they play. This draws in Death's granddaughter Susan who seeks to save Imp from the Music's takeover.
Through the band and the renamed Buddy, the Music proves a near universal hit and begins spreading itself through the Discworld. It proves clever and plays off it's listeners' flaws in various ways such as a manipulating a sleazy salesman into being the band's manager, twisting listeners into your stereotypical punks who like to defy authority and form imitation bands to spread it further, and allow itself to trapped in magical boxes to played whenever opened. The Music pushes Buddy into going on tour and spreads itself through various towns until a final big concert is held. Here the Music plays a final single song before leaving the audience wanting more. It then pushes the band toward their deaths so they would be remembered as the greatest musicians ever. Susan tries to save them, but it ultimately requires Death to entrap the music in its guitar form and smash it to drive it from the Discworld.
In terms of characterization, only Susan gets any meaningful changes. The Music's changes are all audio and visual. For example, it is visually shown changing the band's entire outfits in each concert, something it doesn't do in the book, and matches the outfits perfectly to the genre of Rock it's playing at any one time. More importantly, the concerts are mostly glossed over in the book but are given full scenes with original scores in the animation. For a villain called the Music, you can understand why such an addition would completely change how the character's presentation. Some examples in the animation include the first possession in the bar, at 39:50, where the Music uses its power to completely reshape the band in its image. The second show at the bar, at 1:03:13, also shows the Music can turn an orangutan into a world class pianist. Their first major concert, at 1:21:28, shows off the Music is capable of different genres of Rock, which is further reinforced by wide arrays of genres shown off during the band's tour with shows at 1:55:25, 1:58:58, and 2:01:14. The final concert, at 2:17:21, has lyrics that establish without doubt the Music is in full control when the band plays as Buddy sings lyrics such as I am the Music, I'm love in your soul.
Is it magnificent?
As in the original EP, the Music is The Power of Rock in its most literal form. Through its possession of the band, it plays the most addictive and mind altering music in the universe. The final confrontation shows it has a clear personality and it's shown to be clever in the animation just like in the book. The full concerts go a long ways to solidify it as one of the most truly magnificent characters we've ever looked at.
Is it a bastard?
Much like in the book, its music can be quite destructive and it still sets up Buddy and the band to die even though it's genuine in its intents to make them live forever through the music.
Final Verdict?
A very very easy .
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Mar 18th 2023 at 8:30:26 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Buzz
Any more votes for these two?
to Music
Edited by Paperfly on Mar 19th 2023 at 12:10:46 PM
Image Pickin' Backlog
Goku Black
music
to Silver and the Music.
Yes to the Music... btw does anyone take issue with me holding off on Frank's writeup until the three of us get through the Training Day works? Just wanna confer with my cohorts first.
Seeing universal approval for Icasaracht, so here's a write-up.
Icasaracht is a white dragon matriarch who made plans to cheat death by transferring her soul into a new body if she died. When her spirit is freed to be reborn, she instead takes the body of the recently deceased Wylfdene, seeing the circumstances of the barbarian tribes of the Spine of the World as a reflection of what the dragons went through years earlier. As Wylfdene she convinces the tribes to rally to her banner and go to war with the Ten Towns to drive out the humans and take back their homelands. After her deception is revealed, she retreats to her lair and takes host in one of her spare dragon bodies to be reborn as a white dragon again. She then faces the adventurers in a final confrontation and explains to them her motives and rationales, but refuses the idea of settling things peacefully, as she'd rather join her kind in death than give up her ambitions.
Lies and Violence!
the Power of Rock.
To the Music
Ultimate Moral Compass
Music
@43: No issue there
"No running in the halls!"
Yes to Music.
Here is the condensed Percy and Hector repost, since Kate seems like a lost cause.
Characters'
In “High Flyin’ Dukes” Hector and Percy are a Salt and Pepper criminal duo hired by boss for $1,00 to mix lye into a crop duster’s tank so that he will ruin an already unproductive field Boss owns and give Boss cause for a Frivolous Lawsuit against the crop duster and the Dukes. Because Boss has a reputation as a double-crosser, Percy tape records the meeting and is smart enough to to carry the tape with him when using it for blackmail. They use this tape and Plausible Deniability arguements about how there is no law against carrying lye around to avoid arrest and Hector, a pilot, comes up with a plan to steal the crop duster to run a protection racket against merchants by using what happened to Boss’s farm as an example, which Percy likes.
Hector dusts a field with harmless flour to prove they have the capabilities to do it while Percy make a threat. The Dukes go to the last farmer the two haven’t extorted and set a trap to arrest them and record them discussing the protection scheme. Hector admits where the plane is as they're being led away and told the many charges against them. In Rosco’s car, Percy proposes they swap tapes and says refunding the money Boss paid them sounds fair but he pulls a gun instead while Hector grabs Rosco’s weapon. However, Hector's Pet the Dog moment revealing where the plane was backfires because it let theDUkes find the plane and use it to swoop down and recapture the villains.
Final Verdict Percy is always calm and polite in the face of adversity and knows to have counters to use against the infamously disloyal Boss Hogg. Hector has a brief Know When to Fold 'Em moment after first being spotted at work and then comes up with the extortion plan after being ocnvinced there is no threat.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 19th 2023 at 9:20:49 AM
Hmm... so they get screwed because one said where their plane was hidden? Not sure there, seems like a silly mistake.
- Crystallic's Starbound Trilogy:
- (Ethyl)
- (Moonquill)
- King Stormlance is the ruler of the Glitch Empire and a formidable conqueror. After seeing the chaos across the universe and losing his kingdom to an anarchistic rebellion, Stormlance vows to bring peace and order no matter the means. He revives and reprograms a random glitch guard into Ironwall, his right-hand, and the two usurp a glitch kingdom by rewriting the citizens' memories and killing their royal family. Stormlance forms the empire and takes over dozens of star systems and planets, including Solunar Nexus, rewriting their memories and personalities entirely to fit in his peaceful reality. One day, he meets an abandoned baby Moonquill, who he adopts and lovingly raises as his daughter, training her into a formidable ally, while chipping her and hiding his worse actions from her to ensure her loyalty. Stormlance controls his territories with ease, covering up awakenings by executing rebels and dismissing it as a plague to his citizens. As a last resort, he tries to destroy every star system he has yet to control. In his final moments, he realises the wrongs in his ways, accepts his defeat and commends the heroes, before ordering Moonquill to execute him for his crimes and succeed him as the queen of the glitch to right all his wrongs.
Edited by Iceaura39 on Mar 19th 2023 at 7:34:10 PM
It is I, the narrator, categorising addict and writer of books you haven't read.
The Moron
How about this Melinda - can you just go back to the beginning and post links to all the proposals instead of reposting any of the proposals entirely? That way we can just go back and read all of them again in a quick manner all at once.
