Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Any header ideas for the page folks?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Bye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Stroh rewrite and Emperor Han's quote
Keep Zant and Ghirahim
Edited by TotemGenitor on Jan 4th 2023 at 9:03:16 PM
The wifi here sucks
Keep Zant and Girahim. I like the 1st mummy quote
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Professor Gigachad
I can cook up a header for both The Mummy and Hardy Boys pages.
The Mummy franchise has been around since 1932. While the titular Mummy, Imhotep, is usually portrayed as a Tragic Villain with many positive traits, there are others throughout the franchise, original and spinoffs, that completely lack any level of humanity, figuratively and/or literally.
The Hardy Boys is one of the longest-running mystery book series, featuring the titular duo solving various mysteries across many areas. The series is normally very lighthearted and doesn't have many villains that push far beyond typical villainy. However, the ones that do, prove themselves to be utterly monstrous by the standards of the series.
Also I like the Han quote.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Keep Ghirahim and Zant
First time here but I saw someone that I think should be cut and that is Marjolaine from the Dragon Age franchise. Her level of empathy is questionable, and all her deeds are her own, but I just don't think her crimes stand out.
Firstly, aside from her document planting, her crimes are largely focused against Leliana. These crimes include stabbing her, framing her (by forging documents), sending assassins after her, and that's about it. Now, Leliana does suffer more when she's captured by guards, but the torment she suffered was at the hands of Harwen, not Marjolaine. These crimes are not unique or anything outstanding in the Dragon Age universe, with even the Warden being able to partake in planting forged documents. Sending assassins after a target is a common practice, especially in Orlais with The Game and Antiva, which is basically ruled by the Antivan Crows, a guild of assassins. Note that each protagonist so far has also had to deal with assassins in one way or another:
- The Warden killed a band of assassins sent after them.
- Hawke had a branch of the Carta sent after them by Janeka (who wanted their blood to resurrect Corypheus).
- The Inquisitor foils an assassination contract on their advisor, Josephine's, life.
I must note that the biggest things with Orlesians is playing "The Game", a cutthroat socio-political system in which nothing is off the table. It's basically their national pastime. Orlesians regularly use underhanded tactics to further their own positions in society, which is not limited by things such as murder or political plays. I believe the original EP downplays this aspect in order to make Marjolaine look worse than she is. Betrayal is so common in The Game it is expected, and you watch it happen in the DA games several times. One of the Inquisitor's companions, Vivienne, is introduced by encasing a man in ice (and possibly killing him) after she told him to stir up trouble to begin with. I would not say that Marjolaine striking first makes her excessively paranoid or selfish. It is not an unreasonable belief at all, that is how The Game is played. We see the same thing with Leliana in Inquisition as well, when she discovers there may be a leak within her spies, her first solution is to murder the man.
As for the document planting in the hopes of starting a war, in Inquisition one of the main quests involves dispelling a plot to murder the Empress, which would have thrown the country into chaos allowing Corypheus to take control. All of this was done so that one woman may advance her own status. Also in Inquisition — Gaspard, cousin to the Empress, is a military man who also has his sights set on starting another war with Ferelden. He's also the one that started the Orlesian Civil War, which only ended due to the Inquisitor's intervention.
Compared to what other villains have done, especially the other CMs listed, not only are Marjolaine's crimes not unique to her, but are also just too limited to set her apart in a group that contains people who murder entire villages, are Serial Rapists and/or torturers, sacrifice others to Blood Magic rituals and a guy that tries to end the world. Being a Narcissist just isn't enough in this universe, and Marjolaine isn't the only one in the Dragon Age universe who has such a complex.
Wow I wrote a lot :O CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
I was browsing Image Sources and saw the Plutonian from Irredeemable is the current page image for Monster.Comic Books, which made me curious and wanting to learn more. I dunno when his CM entry was written, but it seems to be before the ending of the comic.
It currently reads:
"Complete Monster: The Plutonian was once a superhero who only saved lives for the adoration it brought him. However, his inability to handle any form of criticism led to him snapping and becoming the most evil being the world had ever known. Starting his evil campaign by painfully lobotomizing his teenage sidekick, Plutonian later massacred the population of Sky City, numbering in the millions, to keep a mistake he made from going public. After hunting down his former teammates and brutally murdering them and their entire families, children and babies included, Plutonian annihilates the country of Singapore solely because an ambassador from said country lied to him. Seemingly locked away forever on an alien planet, Plutonian rejects an alien's attempts to redeem him and leads a breakout with a group of psychotic criminals. Returning to Earth, Plutonian carves his own insignia into the U.S.A., killing thousands of people, slaughters entire cities and uses dozens of superheroes as ammo to fling into space. After trying to murder the last remaining superheroes, Plutonian is fully willing to let the entire Earth perish due to radiation poisoning just to spite his nemesis, Qubit, only saving the planet because his own life is on the line. Though having many possible excuses and sympathetic moments throughout the story, it is slowly revealed that Plutonian was ultimately nothing more than a childish sociopath who would kill innumerable innocents just because he wasn't universally loved, while caring for no one but himself."
However, the final arc of the comic revealed his origins—mainly, that extraterrestrials, the Eleos, reveal that he was a probe they created from themselves to study the emotions of humans, which was drawn in by the maddened grief of a woman who'd just killed her baby and turned by her will accidentally into a replacement baby with the Eleos' powers; he essentially began as a tulpa made flesh. That suggests lack of moral agency to me, and his character also sheet says this:
"Pet the Dog: Tony's sole act of genuine kindness after his turn is leaving his and Max Damage's old hometown alone upon Max's request. Tony even says he respects Max's bravery."
I have not read the series so I may be wrong, but the origin and genuine pet the dog moment seem pretty mitigating, as does the finale where his essence inspired the creation of 'real' heroes like Superman.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Jan 4th 2023 at 5:21:51 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Not the Eye
Keep zant and Ghirahim
Yes to emperor Han quote
Honestly keep dragon age lady, she is just a bard who assists in starting a war, plus her cruelty to leilana. While others do attempt to star a War they have much more resources than her and crime is from what i see still rare enought to not give her a push.
Don’t know about plutonija. I think his origin at least has been disscused.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jan 4th 2023 at 4:52:40 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
The agency thing atleast with the Plutonian has come up before. Haven't seen talk on the Pet the Dog thing but I'm sure it's been discussed at one point, everything with the character has.
The First man
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Lighty, where's that bit about Word of God for Sub-Zero? I saw the film, and don't remember seeing anything about that.
EDIT: Also, for the Hardy header, not sure Vile Villain, Saccharine Show works. The book keepers are from Darker and Edgier series. Maybe this?
The Hardy Boys is one of the longest-running mystery book series, featuring the titular duo solving various mysteries across many areas. The series is normally very lighthearted and doesn't have many villains that push far beyond typical villainy. However, when the serious gets Darker and Edgier, the villains can prove themselves to be utterly monstrous.
Edited by ACW on Jan 4th 2023 at 6:44:01 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Moron
The Pet the Dog thing in my opinion is misuse - it’s not out of genuine respect, it’s because Max plays to his ego and self-centeredness to make him stay away. His agency has also been discussed to death and it’s indicated by the comic that despite his shitty origin, Plutonian is fully to blame for his own actions
Give me a minute to read Marjolaine
Likewise gonna need a min on the Dragon Age villain but I know Irredeemable well and Tony is absolutely a complete bastard of his own making, the entire work is essentially a dive into what made him snap and concluding he was never a good person, just someone who knew how to put on the mask of one until his ego finally got to him and he decided to go on his murder spree. Much of it is devoted to the tragedy of his former friends having to realize what he always really was and the comic does present counters to both his alien origins and moments of seeming benevolence.
Gotcha; thanks! ^^
The Protomen enhanced my life.
No worries, I love that work, happy to chat about it!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Though now I'm curious: Why DOES he leave his and Max's hometown alone?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
It's a good comic if you'd like to read it and find out!
Edit: Oh shit, we're making a Mummy page! Yeah, Han quote and description work.
Edited by 43110 on Jan 4th 2023 at 8:48:14 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Fair enough. I'll just trust it's not disqualifying.
Any images for the Mummy page?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
As the one who proposed Marjolaine I say keep her, she just a bard whose resources seem to extend to being able to hire a couple mercenaries but she's all in on a plan to start a war, and while Corypheus did try to start a war as well 1: Corypheus is infinitely more powerful than her, being one of the most powerful mages in the entire franchise with armies following him and 2: Corypheus didn't try to have Orlais invade Ferelden as well.
Marjolaine is someone who I feel manages to slide in given how low on resources she is, with her cruelty towards Leliana giving her a personal edge and the few other people trying to start wars are all much more powerful than her.
Also, I'm saying keep on Pluto, that's a weird origin but it seems like freewill.
Edited by Agentofchaos on Mar 5th 2024 at 11:01:08 AM
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
You know, should the Mummy page be rearranged like this (yes to the Han quote by the way; just shorten it to "I will retake what is mine. I will crush any idea of freedom. I will slaughter without mercy. I will conquer without compassion. I will...enforce my will on the entire world!")?
The Mummy Trilogy & The Scorpion King spinoff series
- Mummy:
- Scorpion King:
- Film: Ahmanet
- Demastered Video Game adaptation: Princess Ahmanet
Edited by ACW on Jan 4th 2023 at 9:25:40 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Showtime!
Keep Plutonian, also keep Marjorlane. She's operating with basically no resources, and writing off her incredible personal cruelty as just "attacking the heroes" feels like missing the point, kind of
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
With Marjolaine, while it doesn't inherently affect her qualifying it did strike me upon reading and reflecting on that post that both the DLC and main game confrontations with her have If You Kill Him, You Will Be Just Like Him! treated as at least one valid narrative option - whereas there's never anyone questioning that Definite CM Harwin Raleigh deserves to die. And yeah, that's more about Leliana than Marjolaine per se, but still. What happens to a character has been a rule of thumb for me in questionable CM cases in the past.
Edited by nrjxll on Jan 4th 2023 at 8:41:33 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
TBH that was mostly there to justify letting live since she's in the main game, and when in the main game one of your options is "She will never stop trying to kill Leliana, killing her is the only way" and even if you let her go there, she still makes it clear she's not done with her, she's just leaving since a fight with the Warden would be suicide.
Not the Eye
Good idea fo rearangment.
One I am unsure about from Journey to the West
- Liu Hong is a bandit who lusted after Lady Yin and killed her husband Guangrui and one of his servants to court her. Forcing her to marry him at knifepoint, Lui Hong goes on to enjoy a life of privilege by purloining a job meant for Guangrui and nearly drowns Lady Yin's child for being Guangrui's son. Even after his eventual death, Lui Hong's horrific acts lead Lady Yin to end her own life.
So from what I gather his crises are: killing a man and his servant, forcing man’s wife to marry him, taking a man’s job, and killing the man’s baby. It is nasty esspecaly with part about wife killing herself but not sure it is enought for the Dorrstoper epic, esspecaly one where two of the heroes have history of eating people alive, and other one went on rampage across heaven 2 times.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jan 4th 2023 at 7:01:37 AM
Approve of everything for the page on The Mummy.
Leaning keep on Ghiriam
The First man