It hasn't really stopped, though?

If we ignore kid's books like The Cat in the Hat, (which people are sort of forgetting are also troped under the standard Literature namespace), then there's plenty of modern western books that have illustrations. They're not as common mostly because it's expensive and the stereotype is that illustrations are just for kid's books, but that mostly just means that this still happens, people just aren't noticing it in the books they read.

Yeah, it's mostly children's books that have pictures; everything by Roald Dahl does, for example. All of Lewis Carroll's books also have pictures, some of which even complement the text in interesting ways; notably, Henry Holiday adds two women to his pictures of The Hunting of the Snark to give a third meaning to the lines "They sought it with thimbles, They sought it with care/ They pursued it with forks and hope". Adult books are supposed to be less frivolous, though A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, Blood and Fire, and of course The World of Ice and Fire all have pictures.

Speaking of which, A Song of Ice and Fire may provide precedent for example sorting. Quite a lot of tropes list an example from it under Literature, and then under Live Action TV, there is the same example, albeit written differently because it's from a different troper who doesn't care about the books, which cites Game of Thrones as the example. Dragon Rider is an interesting case - not only do A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones have basically the same example, but the series example actually cites information from "the books"! Since the series followed the books pretty closely as far as possible and this sort of thing is widespread, I don't think we need to worry too much about where tropers ultimately place examples from light novels with anime adaptations - if one troper who has read the book adds an example under literature, and someone else who has only seen the anime adds it under anime, it's no different from a given trope having separate examples from A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones.

Yeah, I personally didn't think we needed a crowner as both Anime & Manga and Literature folders would be valid for LN's with adaptations.

Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 14th 2022 at 3:08:15 PM

Things are so unstable right now that I do wonder if adding another option would massively sway things, especially since people have problems with how limited the current crowner options are.

I guess it wouldn't be too late to add another option but I don't think people came up with anything concrete that can stand on its own in the crowner.

If none of the options get consensus, we'll just let people sort the examples where they see fit.

That might ultimately be for the best if people care this much over the specifics.

Buddha: That's a fair point. I don't know what to do about sorting, but I'm now convinced that either the Lit namespace will be fine, or at least moving the novels without adaptations to lit.

The Harry Potter novels also have an illustration at the start of each chapter. And that was really the Genre Popularizer for Western YA fantasy lit, which is what LNs are considered in Japan.

I just caught up on the last few pages and it's a little unclear whether this has come up yet, but it's occurred to me that someone troping the adaptation may know that the original version existed but not whether the trope was used in it. B seems like it would require someone to make an entry in the folder for a work they haven't seen in order to trope the one they have, so I'm changing my vote to D.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Aug 14th 2022 at 10:36:12 AM

I mean yeah the crowner at this point is so unstable that not a single option is in consensus range, at least right now.

Just remembered a similar case: WesternAnimation.The Magic School Bus redirects to Literature.The Magic School Bus. The page mostly seems to talk about the show, and I pretty much only see examples for it in the Western Animation folder.

(Though maybe they are different enough that a page for the show could be split off? The Ascended Extra example says "Most of the kids, who, except for Arnold and Phoebe, were basically a mass of nameless Mr. Exposition characters in the original books.")

There's several book exclusive tropes, so someone can split the book off if they wanted to. Either way, nothing wrong with using the Literature/ redirect and filing book examples in the corresponding folder until the split happens.

Edit to add: As said before, this doesn't happen often with light novels and their adaptations.

Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 14th 2022 at 6:06:28 AM

Wait the Magic School Bus was a book series, well I did not expect that.

Yeah, it started as a series of science edutainment books that was then adapted into a cartoon, and then the cartoon was adapted into licensed video games and, believe it or not, more books that directly adapted episodes of the TV show (in a less-informative style).

Yeah, I saw the cartoon first, big part of my childhood.

Edited by StarSword on Aug 14th 2022 at 10:33:14 AM

Man that is quite some Adaptation Displacement, to the point where even I didn't know about that despite knowing media pretty well.

See also: the Jaws film and the Jaws book.

Sure, Adaptation Displacement happens, though if someone wanted to make a page for and entry pimp the original books then they wouldn't be wrong to do so or to move examples to the book page if necessary. But again this all depends on if anyone actually cares to do that, or if the book just remains a footnote.

From the look of the crowner right now, we might end up having to do a runoff between B and D. 🤔

I bumped the ATT crowner to get more votes

Honestly I think the all-or-nothing nature of both options has basically tainted either from getting approval. People by in large aren't going to go for the idea that we can't put tropes that a work shares with it's adaptation into that adaptation medium folder or the idea that we only put them on the adaptation rather than the source?

So yes, we'll need a runoff of some kind.

And get the same result. Neither is in 2:1 range?

Currently it tells that Literature is preferred over Light Novels at least, I'm not sure what would it mean for the rest if they fail and are mutually exclusive.

I agree. I voted for D because it strikes me as the lesser of two evils, but both leading options are pretty damn bad in terms of practical troping (and I say this as someone who knows nothing about light novels and has no stake in this particular debate).

Like I don't even think it's been clarified how that's going to work when the rest of site doesn't even do anything like that?

Like D means their would be no point in even making pages to adaptations at all. Thanks to how broad the thing is? That would gut this site.

Edited by miraculous on Aug 16th 2022 at 6:10:58 AM