Vindicated by History cleanup thread

I'm for cutting Mario World, even compared to some debatable examples there was no real period of backlash or derision you can point to.

Also for cutting Super Mario World. While there were some who that thought it failed to take much advantage of the heightened capabilities of the SNES and wrote it off as just "more Mario", it was still well-received by the vast majority of critics, with publications like CVG and EGM scoring it highly.

To me, it honestly feels more like a thinly vielled jab at Sonic The Hedgehog fans than an legitimate example

Seems like the consensus to cut is strong so I’ll go ahead and oblige the decision.

On VindicatedByHistory.Video Games:

• While BioShock was a critical and commercial success (see below), System Shock 2 proved to be a very, very Tough Act to Follow. For everyone who saw it as an enjoyable (if not marred by fetch-quests) experience, there was at least one or two who saw it as a dumbed-down and inferior Spiritual Successor to the Sacred Cow. Not helped was Yathzee having a very Cult-like fanbase that parroted his opinions at the time. By the time BioShock Infinite came out, some of the same people started to view the game on its own outside of System Shock 2's shadow. It even developed some Values Resonance in The New '10s, when an audio log points out that not everyone can be "Captains of industry" since somebody has to perform the less glamorous jobs that keep society running.

This reads more like a Vocal Minority of hardcore System Shock fans who came around to enjoying it, not a full-on vindication by a wide audience.

Yeah, the entry even mentions how it was a critical and commercial success, meaning that it was already well regarded. I'd say that this is fair to be cut.

Why does it mention Zero Punctuation? What does he have to do with this game? The entry feels like a stretch.

I never even heard of System Shock 2 until reading that entry; is it really that high of a bar for Bioshock to reach? And the part about Yatzee reeks of referencing a popular reviewer for the sake of referencing them (or why the Cleaning Up Needless References to Reviewers thread exists in the first place).

Edited by KaabiiFan13 on May 9th 2023 at 12:00:00 PM

I believe it's saying that Yahtzee gave it a good review, so people liked the game because of Yahtzee.

Going by both reviews and actual sales? Nope. Both games were insanely acclaimed on their respectively launches (both have Metacritic scores north of 90), but while Bioshock was a financial success (selling over a million copies in its first year), System Shock 2 could barely sell half the copies that the first game did (60K vs. 100K). And as those numbers imply, System Shock has the smaller fanbase.

As harryhenry said, this is very much a case of a Vocal Minority of System Shock fans who eventually came around to enjoying that game's spiritual successor, rather than Bioshock somehow being an overlooked gem. And speaking of System Shock 2, I'm not sure about its entry on the page:

Edited by RacattackForce on May 9th 2023 at 8:49:11 AM

Bioshock 2 is also listed. Not sure if it counts since, while critics liked it, fans took the game like an affront to God and probably forgot about it once Infinite came out (and subtly made the game Canon Discontinuity since “There is always a man, there is always a lighthouse, there is always a city” doesn’t apply to Bioshock 2 and it wasn’t even referenced, in Burial At Sea last I heard. And in fact contradicts events established in 2 ). Nowadays Bioshock 2 is seen in a much better light, with people saying it’s their favorite being decently common and the story is much more praised, but I still see people bash the game. Dark Souls 2 is on the same boat but I still see people bash the game whenever it is brought up so it wouldn’t count even if it wasn’t one of the most highly acclaimed games of 2014 among critics.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on May 11th 2023 at 3:56:18 PM

It might still count, through... I guess we could call it the Wind Waker clause? Basically the fan reception was so negative and vocal, that a turnaround later on is noticeable enough to count.

If you ask me Bioshock 2 does not count because a, it was well received by critics when it came out, b, it is still divisive within the Bioshock fandom and c, is mostly overshadowed by Bioshock Infinite in sales and internet discourse, leaving it to fade away into obscurity in the minds of the general gaming public. In order for something to coalify for Vindicated by History, it must have gotten near-universally negative reception from critics and users alike at first and then after a few years or decades its reputation improved drastically to the point of now being viewed as an undepreciated gem ala The Thing(1982). Remember, there is often a big difference on what the general public and critics think vs what the fandom of an franchise thinks.

Edited by TBJack on May 12th 2023 at 4:14:23 AM

From what I can tell, that game was always well-liked in general, so I don't think it counts.

Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze

• Vindicated by History: The game's initial unveiling was met with indifference at best ("Another Nintendo platformer? So soon? Okay...") and anger at worst ("Where the heck is Metroid!?"). The game was well-liked by critics upon release, and most of the vitriol from Metroid fans had died down by that point, but it was still regarded by most gamers as just being Donkey Kong Country Returns HD. It took until the end of the Wii U's life for people to begin seeing it as not only one of the best games for the system, but also one of the best games in the Donkey Kong Country series, some considering it on par with Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest. Many fans were excited when the title was granted a second life through the Nintendo Switch release. The Switch release went on to sell more within its first few months than the Wii U version managed to do in its entire life on store shelves.

I'm skeptical for this one because I recall the game haing positive reception from players upon release.

I said before that it absolutely doesn't count. Good reviews and good sales considering the Wii U's dismal install base.

Unrelated but I noticed a similar trope exists called "Critical Backlash", where a work panned by critics is rediscovered by later audiences and is found not to be bad as it was claimed to be, the important distinction is that the work isn't re-evaluated as a misunderstood masterpiece, it just makes someone go "huh, that wasn't as bad as people were telling me." May want to see what examples fit better there.

Edited by supernintendo128 on May 15th 2023 at 12:42:26 PM

How much should fan reception factor into these entries? The Tropical Freeze example seems to rely on calling out a Vocal Minority of Metroid fans that seemed to have quietted down once the game actually released. And one thing I learned from these cleanup threads is that, fandom can be pretty volatile and subject to knee-jerk reactions, causing some form of bias or skewed perspective.

Edited by KaabiiFan13 on May 15th 2023 at 1:09:25 AM

I think Tropical Freeze can stay because the game was met mostly with rage or apathy upon reveal, was considered good but nothing groundbreaking on launch but is now considered one of the best 2D platformers ever made.

I actually watched the reveal of Tropical Freeze at Nintendo NY with a bunch of other people and... you ever have that moment where you want to pop off in excitement, but immediately realize no one else in the room gives a shit and shut your mouth? That was me on that day. As says, the reaction to Tropical Freeze from reveal until release for most of the Nintendo fan community at the time was apathy at best and "Retro's talents are being wasted! Where's Metroid!?" at worst (the original headline that Kotaku used for the game's announced was "Another damn Donkey Kong Country game"). That said... I think it might have been received well enough at launch for this entry to fit better under Tainted by the Preview?

Maybe it can stay because I feel I recall people criticizing it sometime after a trailer or the game itself came out.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on May 15th 2023 at 6:56:55 AM

I think Tainted by the Preview fits a lot better.

The game wasn't out yet while most of the vitriol was happening. If works that were Tainted by the Preview but praised upon release count, then by that same logic, the Illumination Mario Movie would count even though people haven't experienced the final product before it could be "vindicated" and are going by breadcrumbs ("Illumination is making the Mario Movie and Chris Pratt is voicing Mario!? This movie will fucking suck!") or just by virtue of not being what the audience was hoping for ("A new Donkey Kong Country game!? Lame! We want Metroid!")

Edited by supernintendo128 on May 16th 2023 at 11:19:55 AM

Fantastic Four 2005 has this:

• Vindicated by History: After the release of Fantastic Four (2015), some viewers looked back on this film more favorably, if only because the 2015 reboot made the 2005 film look good by comparison, as well as not being a bore-fest like the 2015 film. It's not uncommon for people to say that unlike the 2015 film, this one, for all its faults, at least wanted to be a Fantastic Four film.
  I see this type of misuse a lot, where a hated media has a newer installment that is even more hated, and thus the old one is vindicated, even though an older movie being considered better than a newer one is not vindicated, the 05 F4 movie is still disliked
  • Ioan Gruffudd's portrayal of Reed has also been well-regarded in recent years. Especially considering how divisive John Krasinski's version of the character was in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. With many even saying it should have been Gruffudd who was in that film instead of Krasinski.
  I'm kinda unsure about this one too, since it also seems to be, newer one has mixed reception, so older one automatically vindicated. I also feel that the complaints about Krasinski don't come from his performance, but rather people feeling the character was not as smart as the comic version due to him revealing Black Bolt's power to Wanda, allowing Wanda to take him down.

Is it disliked? I see a lot of praise for it online, even if some of that is fueled by nostalgia. The only thing I still see disliked is Jessica Alba's acting in the movie and Doom being a Corrupt Corporate Executive.

Edited by PhiSat on May 28th 2023 at 1:19:23 PM

It has a 28% critic and 45% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes and 5.7 on IMDB, it's not loathed like F4nstic but it seems to be So Okay, It's Average at best.

Regardless, I think we've decided that "bad work looks better compared to a later, worse attempt" doesn't count as Vindicated by History.

I'm not sure how widespread the view is that Gruffudd is a great Reed, beyond nostalgia. And you're right that the entry seems to be conflating criticism for Krasinski's Reed's writing with his performance. It feels like preferring Gruffudd to be in Multiverse of Madness (to be murdered gruesomely) is a fringe opinion at best. I lean towards cutting.