Hate Sink cleanup

I mean, I'd argue some characters require that discussion, if it's controversial. But usually it isn't.

Paging ~Shadao so he can weigh in on this decision.

Personally, I can live with not having to use the effortpost format for obvious keepers as long as the poster goes into detail about what makes them detestable, but again, I am personally inclined to take note of anything which casts a shadow of a doubt on the creator's intentions, even if only to point out that those traits are de-emphasized in favor of the character's loathsome behavior. As for forum consensus, we still need to agree that a candidate fits the mold, in my honest opinion.

Boo to Mumkhar.

When I said "Boo", I meant I gave him one .

To weigh in my opinions on the subject, Hate Sink EPs should only be done when there are no clear indications as to what the author intends them to be. Or when a character enters into the ambiguity of Evil Is Cool territory. MCU Mysterio, for example, has always been a controversial candidate for me because I am not sure if the filmmakers wanted him to be a horrible punching bag or an awesome villain. Likewise, Scar was obvious as a Hate Sink for me but it required extensive arguments to explain why he counts just to prevent another instance where a troper removes him from the page because of his Evil Is Cool traits.

But considering how fast some of these candidates get approved, then written up and posted in the drafts, it's almost not worth keeping the writeup schedule list up to date. And I have to admit, I ask myself why some of EPs were about characters that were already in the page like Shou Tucker.

All in all, EPs should be used for characters that are not ironclad Hate Sink, or characters that should not be in pages at all.

Thus, here's my suggestion of revamping the EP format:

If there are sympathetic traits in a character that people considered to be Hate Sink, and there's an absence of Word of God to weigh on the character, an EP is required to properly determine the author's intent. However, if there are no likable or cool (like Evil Is Cool) traits at all, EP is not required. Likewise, if someone finds enough sympathetic (or cool) traits in a supposed Hate Sink to doubt on author's intent, then they can make an EP to revaluate the subject. EPs shall be for harder candidates where the line between Hate Sink and Evil Is Cool blur. And to prevent a Doctor Facilier shoe-horn situation, classic villains should have a higher standard of Hate Sink classification regarding Hate Sink because a villain is by default someone to be hated.

If Word of God says this person is meant to be hated and the actual actions back up their words (to prevent Designated Villain), then there is no EP voting required. Word of God is the Golden Snitch of votes.

Edited by Shadao on Sep 24th 2019 at 3:03:46 AM

That's basically what I was getting at minus the "classic villain" thing, which I wasn't thinking about; what do you mean by "classic villain" anyway? If you mean that a villain's loathsome traits have to be so much worse than if they were a Villainy-Free Villain in order to fit this trope, I think I agree.

I think generic villainy may be a better way of describing it.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 24th 2019 at 8:04:56 AM

Classic Villain as in something that villains would typically do or have, often in Saturday Morning Cartoons. Deal with the Devil, Obviously Evil, Bank Robbery, Take Over the World, Faux Affably Evil etc. These villains are common in works of media, so much that Hate Sink would lose all meaning if we apply it to them. I mean, there must be a difference between a character like Jafar and a character like Frollo.

My main problem is that we had no choice but to EP characters for works we wrote, in which case Word of God already exists here and thus we are 100% certain that the author meant for us to hate the character. Since Hate Sink is about authorial intent, it is not mutually exclusive with Designated Villain since the latter is about creator-audience dissonance. If anything, I'm not sure whether Hate Sink allows non-villainous examples, i.e. other cases of The Scrappy as an Intended Audience Reaction.

As for EP-ing in general, I feel neutral about it. It's good to keep a list of who is confirmed or not confirmed to count, lest they be disputed.

Well, now all the writer has to do is say which of the characters are meant to be loathsome and how, so I guess that's no longer an issue. Also, it helps to link to the work or its trope page.

Gonna go over some Power Rangers Hate Sinks in the various character sheets.

From Darkonda's character sheet in Power Rangers in Space:

• Hate Sink: The first of the franchise. Once he debuts, it’s clear by the reactions of other villains that a more vile kind of villain has come to the series. His actions are some of the most horrific to date.

This one is a keep, but needs expanding. Will do an effortpost soon.

Now onto the Power Rangers Lost Galaxy charater sheet:

Deviot:

• Hate Sink: Much like Darkonda, he seems to be designed to standout in a as reprehensible in a cast of villains who have someone they care about as well as some sort of line they won't cross. Every time he speaks honestly (which is rare) it's with a clear sense of entitlement and superiority. He's such an asshole that even after Trakeena kills him, his pure evil and selfishness lives on and drags Trakeena down to his level.

Trakeena:

• Hate Sink: All of her actions, even before she absorbed what was left of Deviot's personality (and that includes framing Treacheron and deliberately sending him to his death), make it perfectly clear she was never meant to be liked.

Unsure about Deviot. Deviot might be a possible MB since I was told to look into him as a possible MB-CM crossover in PR. However we could have a rare case of accidental Magnificent Bastard in that a character is meant to be hated but the character proves to be so much Faux Affably Evil and smooth at what they do they end up having the opposite effect. And I'm gonna note that Hate Sink does not necessary mean the character has to be hated by 99% of the fanbase—just intended to be so by the author. Frieza and Yazan are notorious instances where a "hate sink" ended up as a fan favourite by way of Evil Is Cool and Love to Hate.

Trakeena is a clear no. She's a Spoiled Brat at the start of the season and ends up becoming a much more ruthless villain. However she does have genuine love for her father, was devastated by his death, and wanted to avenge him. She also had a degree of respect for her mentor Villimax until she went over the edge. Her actions after Deviot merged with her can arguably be chalked up to Deviot's personality influencing her own.

Next up is Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue:

Queen Bansheera:

• Hate Sink: Bansheera goes to great lengths to be reviled in many ways, especially when it comes to her treatment towards her demons, including her own son.

She qualifies, but again a ZCE. Will have to do an effortpost.

Time Force arguably dosen't have a HS...Ransik was very ruthless but sees reason in the end, Frax is very much a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds and Nadira is far away from this as possible so next up would be Power Rangers Wild Force:

Master Org:

• Hate Sink: What makes him unique among most villains before him was that he used to be a normal human being. He had friends, a career and the capacity to fall in love. However, when the woman he wanted to marry was already engaged and eventually had a baby, he became hateful and started accusing his former friends of ruining his life and stealing credit for his work. He willfully ate the remains of the original Master Org and used his new power to murder them and attempted to murder their baby. Years later, he'd try to destroy all of nature and humanity, and even betray his own Orgs, for extremely petty reasons and completely scoffs at the only chance he's ever given to redeem himself. He ends up one of the franchise's most evil characters, not because he was born a monster, but became one.

Keeps, I think this one dosen't really need an EP, it's detailed as it is.

Now the Disney seasons character pages don't have hate sinks. However there are at least a few Disney villains I'm considering for this trope. The rest are either too flat or too generic evil in their goals or don't really give me hate sink vibes.

Edited by xie323 on Sep 24th 2019 at 5:48:18 AM

EP's may not be necessary, but I'll probanly keep 'em for my proposals bexause A.) They're an efficient way to irganize things, abd B.) I like them.

Sounds good, go for it Xie.

By the way, anyone has opinions on my overview of Shin Megami Tensei's Page?

Here it is

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 24th 2019 at 9:00:44 AM

Yeah, I'd say EP's are a fun thing to do, and anyone who wants? Absolutely, and for controversial examples to aid discussion. I just don't think it should be a strict criteria to add anything

By the way, does a character need to actually show up to be a HS? Because I might have an example from Wicked Little Things, but I need to know first. There's a different character who definitely counts, but I wanna do both if the other guy counts too.

So are we going with Shadao's suggestion?

I think that Overview is good.

Seeing as how several Antagonistsin Persona 5 count, should we perhaps list them as a group example instead of listing them all separately?

Except the Gym teacher, he seems Uniquely loathsome.

If there is enough characterization and actions that impacts the people's lives on-screen, then yes, The Ghost can count as Hate Sink.

Orm's father from Aquaman (2018) is a good example since we don't what he looks like but we do know what kind of personality he is said to have, and how he affected everyone from Arthur to Orm himself.

Edited by Shadao on Sep 24th 2019 at 8:34:31 AM

So, here goes one I was mulling over.

What is the work?

Madame Macabre is an internet personality known for several different things, but in this case her music. She had made several original songs, but also fan songs for works like Gravity Falls, Five Nights at Freddy's, among others. The one song that she did was based on the psychological horror meta game Doki Doki Literature Club! where it is sung from Monika's perspective.

Who is the candidate? What has she done?

From "Only Monika," Monika is the club president of the Literature Club who starts the song by happily greeting the player character to the club. As the song continues, it is made clear that Monika is actually sapient and is really interested in the player. Becoming envious of how the player was close to Sayori, Monika starts to hack into the character files and amplifies their characteristics to make them appear unappealing to the player. When that doesn't work, Monika becomes enraged and resorts to mind raping Sayori for a week and increasing her depression, climaxing in Sayori killing herself. She then goes after Yuri by making her more obsessive and regardless of what you chose, Yuri would gorily kill herself regardless whether or not her confession is accepted. Monika then deletes Natsuki and destroys the setting of the video game so she could be alone with the player.

Now, here is where this Monika is separated from her canon self. While Monika did horrible things in the game, she at the least has a Heel Realization when she gets deleted and tries to make amends, even revealing that the girls weren't completely gone. In this song, however, Monika expresses absolutely no love for her friends, basically treating them worse than she did in the game. Every time she mentions one of her friends, her hatred for them practically oozes in her words. Instead of undergoing a Heel–Face Turn, Song!Monika gloats about mind raping her friends, relishing that they were no dead and out of her way (Grinding them down one by one/'til they're gone/Yes I messed with their heads/Wound them up/Now they're dead/Isn't it better without all that noise/No more screaming/No distractions).

She then ends the song by laughing like a total psychopath.

Evil Is Cool? Complexity? Freudian Excuse?

So, much like in the game, Monika is depicted as sapient and self-aware of her surroundings. In the game, her gaining sapience was one of the things that drove her insane because to her, she was the only "real" character in the game, or at least the only one that mattered. The game also has it to where any of the girls could potentially go insane if they became club president. This is evidenced when if you access Act IV when Monika recreates the game after her redemption, Sayori becomes her successor, and she not only gains self-awareness, but she also gains the same reality-warping, game-altering powers. The song however, strips this from this interpretation of Monika. Monika here is defined by her envy and spite where instead of her wanting to be with the player being presented in a sympathetic light, she instead felt a great sense of self-entitlement and was disgusted that the player would rather choose these other girls to interact with.

Complexity-wise...as I have said, the song reinterprets Monika, thus meaning that he becoming insane because of her position as club president is not applicable. Monika does what she does because she resents the other girls and is more than happy with driving them insane and having them kill themselves.

What makes her personally despicable?

The fact that she hates her friends enough that she gleefully drives them insane by enhancing their traits and then watching back as they disposed of themselves. Or how in the end, she expresses no remorse for any of her actions.

Conclusion

Adaptational Villainy is at full display here.

To Paraphrase Riley from earlier in the Hank Pym Discussion

Ew, fuck that Treatment of the Charachter, but to Her.

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 24th 2019 at 8:48:18 AM

Monika

Monika.

Also, I know we might have gone through this before is it possible for a hate sink to be a magnificent bastard? Asking because MB is a YMMV trope while HS is not, so it's entirely possible a character intended to be hated by the audience ends up being an accidental magnificent bastard due to writing fumbles that end up making said character endearing instead of despicable.

I suppose it could, but that would be rare indeed.

New proposal, from Black Butler.

Who's the candidate?

Shinpei Kujo, a Corrupt Corporate Executive united with Lady Hanae Wakatsuki for immortality.

What does he do?

To test out immortality serums, Kujo buys women from Human Traffickers to experiment on. In the process of doing so, Kujo discovers a drug called Necrosis which mummifies people alive. On Hanae's orders, Kujo tests the drug on random people to perfect it. He shows her the final results by poisoning a nightclub full of people and watching them tear each other apart. After noting that he feels that level of violence is peak human nature, he gives Hanae the formula and is promptly shot dead.

Personally despicable?

Human trafficker who experiments on the girls he buys, Serial Killer and general sadist.

Redeeming qualities?

None. The film tried to give Hanae sympathetic traits (and failed, hence her Complete Monster entry), but they didn't even try with Kujo.

Verdict?

Yes to everyone proposed.

And also, might I add, the Woobie thread IS necessary. See the Fire Emblem page? That used to be full of ZC Es with one infamous one being "Sephiran, Dheginsea, Yune and Pelleas" were on the Radiant Dawn Woobie page with Zero context as to why they counted as any kind og woobie. Yeah they're keepers but we needed it more fleshed out. Also before I did that writeup for Lucas from Mother 3, it was literally just "Lucas. Just Lucas". We wouldn't have gotten rid of GOOD examples, just examples that fail to explain why said character is pitiable.

I'm saying this here not because of SIW but because I think in some cases the bureaucratic system is necessary. Fact is, both HS and Woobie get abused by people who think they can expect everyone to just play the game/read the novel/watch the film and know immediately why said character counts. We also wanted to prevent the majority of unsympathetic Complete Monsters from being listed. So in both cases, the b'cratic system IS necessary. Discussion dates, and the like aren't needed.

• Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam:
  • Bask Om, the second-in-command of the Titans, is introduced beating war-hero Bright Noah for opposing a dangerous order. Favouring brutality in his army, Bask takes Kamille Bidan's mother as hostage to retrieve the Gundam MK-II before lying to his soldier to get him to shoot at her capsule, killing her in front of her son. Using the Titans to commit multiple atrocities against them, the Titans use nerve gas against whole space colonies—killing all of their inhabitants—and experiment on teenagers to create Cyber Newtypes, unstable soldiers in semi-perpetual agony. Murderous, hateful and violent, Bask's brutality makes him stand out as the worst of the leadership of the Titans, leading to their being outlawed and eventual downfall.
  • Yazan Gable is a sadistic warmonger who joined the Titans to be able to kill people legally. Uncaring about the rules of war, he participates in a attempted Colony Drop on a populated city and later, Yazan arranges the death of a officer trying to prevent unnecessary bloodshed. Joining Paptimus Scirocco after he takes over the Titans, Yazan kills many heroes from the Anti Earth Union Group—whom he considerates "made of woman and children"—and even kills his own ally while showing no concern at the deaths of his most friendly subordinates. Defeated by Kamille, Yazan survives the battle and several days later, he persuades a group of poor teenagers to infiltrate the Argama to steal the Zeta Gundam, taking the opportunity to kill another AEUG soldier before failing. Pathetically trying several attempts to steal the Zeta Gundam, Yazan joins Neo Zeon's soldiers, betraying the very purpose of the Titans. A beast in the skin of a man, Yazan earns the hatred of both Kamille and Judeau.
  • Kamille's father Franklin Bidan is a negligent and abusive workaholic who cheats on his wife. Taken as a hostage by the Titans and saved by the AEUG, Franklin betrays them and tries to escape back to the Titans even after they killed his own wife, wanting to continue his work creating Mobile Suits and being willing to shoot at his own son. A man without concern for anything or anyone but his work, his only passion in life, Franklin is the main reason behind Kamille's notorious anger issues.

Monika and Kujo.

• Black Butler: Shinpei Kujo is a pharmaceutical executive hired by Lady Hanae Wakatsuki to make an immortality serum. To do so, he buys women from Human Traffickers and experiments on them until theur bodies give out. After discovering a drug called Necrosis, which mummifies people within minutes, Kujo tests it on various people. This evebtually culminates in him poisoning a nightclub full of people and watching them tear each other apart for the antidote.

Shadap, this character being a bad guy is a massive spoiler, but a lot of his actions aren't, so I have no idea how to tag it.

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Sep 26th 2019 at 6:23:06 AM