Hate Sink cleanup

Yes to David Mc Call, Pettigrew, and Socks and Ruby.

Ruby and the other Guy.

@Thok

You seem to think Evil Is Cool is an Automatic DQ. It isn't, it just matters on what's emphasized. Adam Tauras and Cinder Fall From rwby are both badass fighters with cool designs, but Adam is an Abusive Narcissist and Cinder is a Sadistic Bully, wich defines there overall character.

So Perkins can still count.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 1st 2019 at 6:17:38 AM

I'd say Perkins probably still counts.

At the very least, she is worthy of an effortpost.

So here's my second EP for Life Is Strange: Before the Storm. I personally think he's a jerk, but he's a little complex, but he has a Hate Sink entry on his character sheet, so I'm gonna see if he actually counts.

This one is the games secondary antagonist and de jure Big Bad James Amber.

Who is he ? What does he do ?

James Amber is the District Attorney of Arcadia Bay and father of Rachel Amber. They are among one of the rich and powerful families in Arcadia Bay, and seemingly the ideal family of the ideal student, Rachel Amber, who James has a seemingly ideal relationship with. Rachel has befriended the more low class student Chloe Price. As it turns out Rachel has a bit of a rebellious princess streak going on when she meets Chloe and one day the two decide to skip school and while they're hiking up in the hills, Rachel spots James at a park kissing a woman who isn't his wife. Thinking her father's cheating on her mother, Rachel is a little upset and wants answers.

The next day, Rachel and Chloe are in trouble with Principal Wells for skipping school, where we meet James properly and he acts like a jerk to Chloe for being a "bad influence" on Rachel, despite Rachel saying skipping school was her idea. Also, despite Rachel's confession, Chloe is expelled and Rachel only gets reprimanded because classism. This doesn't stop Chloe from co-starring with Rachel at a school play of The Temptest, and going to the Amber's home were Chloe tries to make a good impression with James, when James makes a speech about the importance of family, which gets Rachel angry. James snaps at Chloe for being a "delinquent from a broken home" who doesn't deserve to be around Rachel. Rachel snaps and smashes the dinner table and calls out James for his affair. After calming down, James reveals the woman he's been seeing - Sera - is Rachel's biological mother.

James tells Rachel and Chloe the story of his first wife Sere, who was a high school sweetheart and a herion addict who's addiction was bad at the time Rachel was a baby, and he ended up leaving her and taking Rachel. He tells Rachel that her mother continues to do drugs and is taking money every month from James to support her addiction, and claims that she doesn't want to see Rachel. Rachel still wants to see her, and they get the attention of local drug dealer and the games main antagonist Damon Merrick who tells the girl to stay out of his business before Damon and Rachel get into a fight. Damon ends up stabbing Rachel and putting her in the hospital.

At the hospital, Rachel privately asks Chloe to look through her fathers office to find out more information on Sera. When Chloe sneaks into James' office (and has an unfavourable encounter with Helliot) she finds out that Sera has since gone clean and has constantly tired to contact Rachel, but James has bee withholding her letters. On top of that, James and Damon are in eachother pockets; James hired Damon to kidnap Sera and forcibly dose her with heroin, in exchange for destroying evidence against Damon. Chloe tracks them down and with the help of her friend (and another drug dealer) Frank, they manage to rescue Sera and kill Damon. After meeting Sera (and potentially talking her into later meeting Rachel), Chloe has the option of telling Rachel the truth about her father arranging Sera's kidnapping, irreparably ruining Rachel's relationship with her father.

Either way, Rachel's doomed in the long run.

Is he cool or Complex ?

He is characterized as a Jerk with a Heart of Jerk thanks, but he does have complexity issues.

One thing that can't be denied is he at the very least loves Rachel, fitting him into the Overprotective Dad or Knight Templar Parent role. You get the idea he wants what's best for her, even if he's lying and manipulating her. Admittedly he also has public image/reputation issues with it being asked but nevered answered is if he really wants to protect his daughter or just his families reputation from the fact he married a former drug addict. He blocks all of Sera's attempts to contact Rachel, and arranges her to be kidnapped by Damon Merrick to prove she's a bad influence on Rachel, by getting her hooked on drugs again. That being said, he seems reluctant to actually work with Damon.

And in addition to loving his daughter, he does have a Pet the Dog moment towards Chloe. While he for the most part looks down on her for being from a "broken home" and being a bad influence on Rachel, he does comfort Chloe when Rachel is hospitalized, having a patient and understanding conversation with her about Rachel's fight with Damon, reassuring her that he doesn't blame Chloe and that it's not her fault. He even offers to get her reinstated at Blackwell Acadamy. We are given no reason to doubt his sincerity here.

Unsure on James.

I guess I've put myself on the hook for a couple of effort posts. Here's the easy candidate; I'll try to put up Ms. Perkins tomorrow.

What is the work

John Wick is an action film about John Wick, a former member of an underground society of assassins who retired after finding the love of his life. When she dies of cancer, John Wick is heartbroken, but his wife leave a final gift to him; a puppy to remember her by. A young thug asks John for his car and threatens him if he doesn't sell it to him; when John doesn't give him the car, the thug and his friends break into John's house, knock him unconscious, steals his car, and shoot his dog. Heartbroken at the loss of his last connection with his wife, John goes on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge over the death of his dog.

Who is candidate number 1 and what did they do

Iosef Tarasov is the above mentioned thug responsible for the death of John Wick's dog. He is also the son of mobster Viggio Tarasov, a former employer of John Wick.

Taking John Wick's car to a chop shop, the owner refuses to have anything to do with it, and punches Iosef in the face on learning what Iosef did to John Wick's dog. When Viggio calls the chop shop owner to find out why he punched his son, Viggio learns what Iosef did to John Wick and immediately realize the mess Iosef is in; Viggio responds by sending men to attempt to take out John, offering a large bounty on Wick's life and sending Iosef into hiding. Iosef spends the rest of the movie partying and hiding in a safehouse while under the guard of his father's men; at one point when fleeing John Wick he takes a women as a human shield. Eventually hunted down by John Wick, Iosef tries to run away rather than fight John, but is killed while in the process of saying "It was just a FUCK'N (dog)."

What makes them personally despicable

He shot a dog. Also, he's an entitled arrogant idiot who never considers apologizing to John Wick, and is held in contempt by everybody in the movie. But most, it's about shooting a dog.

Evil is Cool? Complexity? Freudian Excuse?

You're joking right? In particular, Iosef is held in contempt by almost every character in the movie; eventually even his own father sells him out.

Verdict

An obvious

Iosef.

to Iosef.

to Theon Iosef.

Iosef.

Hmmm, after doing some grammar corrections on Peter Pettigrew's entry, I wonder if this is the right style to do Hate Sink entries.

• Harry Potter: Peter Pettigrew, otherwise known as Wormtail, is a former classmate of James "Prongs" Potter, Sirius "Padfoot" Black, and Remus "Moony" Lupin, having betrayed the Potter family to Lord Voldemort when the latter threatened his life. Initially believed to be dead at Black's hands, Wormtail had, in reality, framed Black as Voldemort's informant before faking his own death, killing innocent people and cutting off his own finger in the process before taking the form of a rat, Scabbers, owned by the Weasley family. When confronted by Lupin and Black, Wormtail blames Voldemort's threats for his treachery, before begging for underserved mercy. Escaping from the encounter, Wormtail assists Voldemort in various tasks out of his own self interest, such as interrogating Bertha Jorkins, freeing Barty Crouch Jr., putting Barty Crouch Sr. under an Imperius Curse, and killing Frank Bryce when the latter overhears him and Voldemort talking. Wormtail eventually creates Voldemort's new body, maiming Harry Potter, and killing Cedric Diggory in the process. A disgusting, selfish, sniveling coward, Wormtail makes his mark on the series as a traitor.

Fine for main page, but not so much for the Character Page (it might have to be significantly shorten if it was put up in Pettigrew's character folder).

I also think it's missing the circumstances of his death. The thing that makes Hate Sink an objective trope rather than an audience reaction is that the author does everything in their power to prevent any redemption or sympathy for this character. Given that the third book makes a big deal about Pettigrew's life debt to Harry Potter being a good thing (in Dumbledore's eyes), his pathetic death by his silver hand for simply hesitating to kill Harry Potter when Harry reminds him of that debt is more important than simply listing his crimes. We're not dealing with The Scrappy or Complete Monster, after all.

I feel that listing the actions he performs that portray him as despicable is absolutely necessary, even though the trope isn't YMMV.

Maybe we should add something about his death being ignominious, though.

Something like this, perhaps:

Spending his next few years doing menial tasks for Voldemort, Wormtail eventually meets his demise when Harry reminds him that the former owes Harry his life, causing Wormtail to hesitate before trying to kill Harry regardless, only to be strangled by his own magic metal arm.

Here's an update:

• Harry Potter: Peter Pettigrew, otherwise known as Wormtail, is a former classmate of James "Prongs" Potter, Sirius "Padfoot" Black, and Remus "Moony" Lupin, having betrayed the Potter family to Lord Voldemort when the latter threatened his life. Initially believed to be dead at Black's hands, Wormtail had, in reality, framed Black as Voldemort's informant before faking his own death, killing innocent people and cutting off his own finger in the process before taking the form of a rat, Scabbers, owned by the Weasley family. When confronted by Lupin and Black, Wormtail blames Voldemort's threats for his treachery, before begging for underserved mercy, only saved by the mercy of Harry Potter. Escaping from the encounter, Wormtail assists Voldemort in various tasks out of his own self-interest, such as interrogating Bertha Jorkins, freeing Barty Crouch Jr., putting Barty Crouch Sr. under an Imperius Curse, and killing Frank Bryce when the latter overhears him and Voldemort talking. Wormtail eventually creates Voldemort's new body, maiming Harry, and killing Cedric Diggory in the process. Spending his next few years doing menial tasks for Voldemort, Wormtail eventually meets his demise when Harry reminds him that the former owes Harry his life, causing Wormtail to hesitate before trying to kill Harry regardless, only to be strangled by his own magic metal arm. A disgusting, selfish, sniveling coward, Wormtail makes his mark on the series as a traitor.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 2nd 2019 at 11:31:25 AM

That's much better. The thing with the Harry Potter series is that there's a lot of characters who initially appear to be Hate Sink but then get a lot of sympathetic traits or Heel–Face Turn as we approach the end of the story. Petunia and Dudley Dursley, Draco Malfoy, Sirius Black and most famously Severus Snape. With that kind of record, the reader would expect Wormtail to either perform a Heel–Face Turn or Redemption Equals Death (and I have seen some Potter fans speculate on how the life debt would be paid off). That's why it's necessary to mention how his death subverts what we would expect and solidify his Hate Sink status.

Edited by Shadao on Jul 2nd 2019 at 8:44:12 AM

for Socks and Ruby. They're jerks but to Big Brother Bully Kids Are Cruel degrees. Scourge's treatment of them as adults makes them seem sympathetic.

Sirius Black is never a hate sink at any point, to my recollection.

A seemingly villainous figure? Yes. Sketchy? Yes. But I think the rule of scary or whatever is at play more than anything else.

The question remains as to whether the narrative expects you to sympathize with them. And a hate sink can be anywhere on the scale of antagonist vileness, from Villainy-Free Villain to Complete Monster.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 2nd 2019 at 2:38:57 PM

Chuckling at the fact your little brother was nearly killed by Tigerstar (and he would have been had Bluestar not intervened) is not healthy behaviour. That and unwitting or not, they were responsible for that whole fiasco by getting Scourge in the forest to begin with, showed no remorse, and expected to be forgiven by their now tyrant of a brother. Whether he's a Complete Monster now or not, it doesn't change the fact that these two brats kickstarted his whole tyranny. I don't think we're meant to feel sorry for them at all. Although the manga is told through an Unreliable Narrator in Scourge. I'm not saying Scourge's actions are justified, but I'm pretty sure you are not meant to feel sorry for them.

Would you be opposed to me E Ping Snake and Ice, Barley's evil brothers who tried to kill their own sister? I think they would make for a more solid case. Then again, Warrior Cats thrives on White and Gray Morality where some characters that you originally weren't meant to sympathize with get synpathetic over time. Tigerstar is an example.

Edited by Klavice on Jul 2nd 2019 at 1:43:56 AM

Any more votes on the Gold-Toothed Doctor from Fullmetal Alchemist, Blumiere's nameless father from Super Paper Mario, James Zoloman from The Flash (2014), and James Amber from Life Is Strange: Before the Storm?

Edited by IukaSylvie on Jul 2nd 2019 at 9:44:10 PM

I already voted on these candidates, but I encourage others to weigh in.

This is my final adjustment to wormtail’s entry.

• Harry Potter: Peter Pettigrew, otherwise known as Wormtail, is a former classmate-turned-nemesis of James "Prongs" Potter, Sirius "Padfoot" Black, and Remus "Moony" Lupin, having betrayed the Potter family to Lord Voldemort when the latter threatened his life. Initially believed to be dead at Black's hands, Wormtail had, in reality, framed Black as Voldemort's informant before faking his own death, killing innocent people and cutting off his own finger in the process before taking the form of a rat, Scabbers, owned by the Weasley family. When confronted by Lupin and Black, Wormtail blames Voldemort's threats for his treachery, before begging for underserved mercy, only saved by the mercy of Harry Potter. Escaping from the encounter, Wormtail assists Voldemort in various tasks out of his own self-interest, such as interrogating Bertha Jorkins, freeing Barty Crouch Jr., putting Barty Crouch Sr. under an Imperius Curse, and killing Frank Bryce when the latter overhears him and Voldemort talking. Wormtail eventually creates Voldemort's new body, maiming Harry, and killing Cedric Diggory in the process. Spending his next few years doing menial tasks for Voldemort, Wormtail eventually meets his demise when Harry reminds him that the former owes Harry his life, causing Wormtail to hesitate before trying to kill Harry regardless, only to be strangled by his own magic metal arm. A disgusting, selfish, sniveling coward, Wormtail makes his mark on the series as a traitor.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 2nd 2019 at 10:08:55 AM

Well, since Spider-Man: Far From Home is out, they'll no doubt be attempts to put Hate Sink on certain characters. I got found this one from the MCU super villain page here:

Hate Sink: Once the truth about him is revealed, it becomes apparent that he's little more than a narcissistic, glory-seeking murderer who wants nothing more than to tarnish the memory of Iron Man and ensure that he's able to maintain his fame, without any real desire to do good. His decision to expose Peter Parker as Spider-Man cements just how petty and vindictive he really is.

In case, Hate Sink candidates in Spider-Man: Far From Home should be discussed after two weeks of the US showing. If you see any Hate Sink entries added in related pages, redirect them here.

Oh, and if I hadn't made it clear, I vote for the Gold Tooth Doctor.

Edited by Shadao on Jul 3rd 2019 at 1:24:10 AM

Thank you! By the way, I don't know what to do with Kai Chisaki/Overhaul from My Hero Academia because while he's quite a nasty villain, he does have some character depths and sympathetic qualities. This fact makes me think that treating him as a straight example would be shoehorning. Thoughts?

Edited by IukaSylvie on Jul 5th 2019 at 11:39:22 PM

Maybe he is a downplayed example? We'll see what the EP has to say about him.

Maybe I'm looking through Socks and Ruby through the wrong POV but I never got the feeling they wished Scourge bodily harmed. They were just bullying jerks who went too far with their jokes. Does that make them a Hate Sink, though? I can't tell if we're supposed to hate them. Warriors has a lot of mixed-messages characters.

Re-read what I said about hate sinks ranging from Villainy Free Villains to Complete Monsters. One can have Hate Sinks at any level of heinousness.

Also, even if they are "just" bullying jerks, in all likelihood, they were not meant to be liked.

Yeah, simply failing the heinous standard does not disqualify a Hate Sink.