Hate Sink cleanup

And as a writer myself, I can promise you that if my intention is to make a character hateable, they end up as a petty, annoying, bland pest who exists mostly to make my protagonists suffer while they're dealing with real issues.

I just can't see how a character like Mysterio would've been designed to garner hatred if the creators obviously took the time to make them cool and competent. Frollo you might have a point on, but Mysterio has a lot of likable traits and his evilness is balanced out by his impressive showing as a villain. He's just too cool and I can't imagine that being accidental. You don't make a villain that smart and competent if you don't want the audience to enjoy them.

I'll leave it there. Not much more to say really.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:44:28 AM

On Mysterio that's all totally fair, my only refutation is that All of Mysterios Smarts are directly tied with and Emphasize his hateable traits, his whole act as Mysterio? Is tied to how he is Evil All Along after the first half is meant to trick you into finding him likeable. The way he tricks Peter with his Holograms midway through? Involves him pulling one of the Cruelest Kick the Dog moments in the MCU, his gambit at the end? Has him ruining our Teenager leads life out of petty spite.

Once again your points are perfectly fair and well demonstrated. And I'm quite happy with how this has gone

Edited by Snoketrope on Oct 23rd 2020 at 8:58:13 AM

Jay about summed up my thoughts and I think she's a great voice to have here because she doesn't frequent the EP threads like we do and so provides a great insight on how these things look when you're not watching a movie with such points for analysis in mind. Don't think there's much more I have to add to what she said... we good to move on with whatever the next steps were gonna be as was being discussed?

Sure

I think what makes Frollo a HS but not Mysterio is that the former is Obliviously Evil. He's actually delusional enough to think he did absolutely nothing wrong; I think that's part of the main reason why Ego and Kilgrave qualify for the HS as well. Mysterio however is evil for the sake of being evil which is just regular comic-book villainy, and so far we don't even really know how many consequences came from framing/exposing Peter.

And again, Scarecrow in the Batman: Arkham Series performs Mind Rape on Batman more than once and finally exposes his secret identity to the world, and he's not a HS at all.

EDIT: I just now saw we're all moving on. Alright then...

Edited by WoodsyGrabass2019 on Oct 24th 2020 at 6:34:38 AM

So I'm wondering: is it really a necessity that the Hate Sink have no redeeming qualities? A good chunk of misused examples will give that as the only reason why a character is a HS, but as the troper who repeatedly labelled Atris as one pointed out, there's nothing on the trope page saying that a HS can't have SOME redeeming qualities, just that they're written specifically to be hated by the audience.

Is that really a major problem?

Yes a HS can have redeeming traits and such, it's just a matter of if they are intended to be hated. That was another one of the good things stressed in the EP days. Chi-Fu from Mulan is horrified like everyone else when he sees the remains of the Village Shan Yu destroyed, but his portrayal overall is as a misogynist, Smug prick.

Edited by Snoketrope on Oct 24th 2020 at 9:31:21 AM

Yeah, I've seen that misconception posted quite a lot. Like on the Tall Man's character tab a few pages back, Angst and Cannibal Holocaust, to name a few. Knowing that now, though, maybe Atris does count as one? Though she does have a Villainous BSoD at the end of her arc.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 24th 2020 at 11:35:58 AM

That’s not what we’re arguing against but this trope is going to need some fine tuning before we start arguing examples again.

I think a Hate Sink can have redeeming qualities, yes.

Take Jack Welker from Breaking Bad for example. He loves Todd, likes his fellow Aryans, and has some standards, but it's clear in the last 3-4 episodes that you're supposed to hate his guts because of the way he kills Hank/Gomez and enslaves Jesse, even making the latter watch Andrea's murder and threatening to kill Brock too.

Also, the Governor from The Walking Dead. He seems genuinely kind to Bob (even telling him to go get himself some food), and has a Villainous Friendship with Bruce (as evident by his reaction to his death). And he's the most sadistic, psychotic and all-around repulsive asshole of a human being you can come across (at least in the comics).

Edited by WoodsyGrabass2019 on Oct 25th 2020 at 10:55:29 AM

Hate Sink can absolutely have redeeming qualities, the emphasis just needs to be placed on their negative qualities and their redeeming traits shouldn't serve to make them likable.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 25th 2020 at 12:43:16 PM

Ah. Okay, I was just confused because I vaguely remember in the early days of this thread, that it was deemed that an HS can't have redeeming qualities. But I stopped actively participating in here since the EPs were axed, so.

Do you agree that Tewkesbury's grandmother from the film Enola Holmes is a Hate Sink?

Mate, this isn't for approving examples. If you think she fits, add her.

I agree with Jay. If you feel like she has way more bad qualities than good ones, I say there's nothing really stopping you and you should go for it.

For example: I was the one who added the Satanic Archetype trope to Rip Blazkowicz's entry, and no complaints/editwars have come up at all.

Edited by WoodsyGrabass2019 on Oct 25th 2020 at 1:30:53 PM

Just use good judgement for now when putting up examples, we can deal with axing those that are deemed to misuse the trope once criteria is tightened and such. Woodsy we don't need an explanation on how no one complained about you adding an example of Satanic Archetype, this thread is kinda going in circles right now.

No one's questioning that, don't invent problems when there are none.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 26th 2020 at 3:24:01 PM

I'm just trying to explain that nothing's wrong with adding something if you have good criteria for it...

Edited by WoodsyGrabass2019 on Oct 26th 2020 at 2:01:36 PM

When are we going to begin the process of tightening the criteria? Or did a TRS open and I just missed it?

Edit: That's what I thought; was just wondering, sorry.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Oct 27th 2020 at 1:10:20 AM

The TRS hasn't even been made yet.

So, who's handling it again? As I would like to speak to them about it in Advance.

Sorry to interrupt, but I'm bringing up this example from HateSink.Western Animation as it just sounds like complaining instead of explaining the character's narrative role.

• Courage the Cowardly Dog:
  • While Eustace is occasionally portrayed as sympathetic, he is a stubborn, hateful old man who takes advantage of Muriel's kindness and mistreats Courage even when Courage puts his life on the line several times to save him. By far Eustace's worst episode was Ball of Revenge in which he rallies all of the villains that Courage had faced throughout the show's run to kill the dog because he was sleeping on a blanket that belonged to him.

I don't think eustace is an example. Hes a dick but he's also played for sympathy or comedic moments way too often. It's probably to inconsistent to be an example.

Edited by miraculous on Nov 3rd 2020 at 9:59:18 AM

And Courage has way too many legit villains to need a Hate Sink anyway.

I would think the only legit ones would be the Veterinarian and Mad Dog.

Bobobo Bo-bo Bo-bobo's Giga from the Cyber City arc, a Mad Artist who turns Super Fist users into warped clay figures by physically warping their bodies into such forms for his collection. He runs a brutal prison island where people are rendered bald and tortured for the amusement of himself and his equally sadistic Cyber Knights. When turning Gasser into a clay statue, he shows intense glee at the prospect and made sure to show it on screen out sadistic spite.

Additionally, he shows an extremely obnoxious personality from visibly disrespecting his boss, Czar Baldy Bald the IV to trolling Bobobo that he used a Super Fist, when he actually didn't. When pushed to a corner, he tries to crush Gasser's statue out of spite. Unlike the previous major villains has no revealed Freudian Excuse, implied or explicit for his actions, coming across as an abrasive, sadisitc jerk who does horrible things for no reason than his own ego.