During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
SPAG fixes are fine. I might double check that one for grammar tho, I think I missed it.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Hades.
Yes to Hades and the Big Good of The Venture Bros.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
mir you've got one? Two more from Once Upon a Time?
Treister and Hades
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Bariss
New proposal, from Hip-Hop Comics' "Contract Complete".
This one will be short, as the song is about four minutes long.
Who's the candidate?
Slade Wilson, AKA Deathstroke the Terminator
What does he do?
An elite soldier, Slade volunteered to be a test subject in the Army's Super-Soldier program. It gave him superhuman endurance, but made him age rapidly. Discharged, Slade became an assassin known as Deathstroke the Terminator, quickly becoming the best on Earth. As part of his strategy, Deathstroke gives his enemies a head start so they van have a fighting chance. He fires his first shot, then switches between multiple scenarios he planned out to throw the other guy for a loop. He'll put down anybody who gets in the way, and his only failure has been the Teen Titans, whom he went after to avenge his son and has pursued ever since.
Intelligence? Charm?
He's more a Punisher type of charm, in that he's a gruff badass who operates on pure efficiency. But he's so skilled he's literally only been beaten by suoerhumans.
Thinking on his feet?
His main strategy is to plan out a bunch of scenarios and swirch through them on a dime to confuse the opposition.
How bastard is he?
He is a ruthless assassin, even willing to kill whole families, but he cares for his family and the shadier shit his comic counterpart does isn't present here.
Competition?
The only people he hasn't bested are the Titans, who are a bunch of superhumans waaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than he is. And even they can't put him down permanently.
Verdict?
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Jun 9th 2020 at 12:04:49 PM
Easy yea.
to Deathstroke.
Goku Black
@43: Yeah uh the only one left Im 100 percent on is Rumplestilskin himself. Thing is hes a hundred episodes, so that ep will take a bit. In the meantime would you mind sumbitting my currents. Any others left that I might do like facillier or black fairy will require way more discussion then this.
- CSI: "The Finger": Roy Logan after killing his mistress sets about the perfect way to cover up a murder. Logan begins a complicated plan and has himself intentionally captured by the police before manipulating Catherine Willows into helping him give 1 million dollars in ransom to his lawyer who will then give it him, fooling him all the while into thinking his mistress is still alive. An expert liar with the ability to make himself seem meek and scared, Logan is able to read the CSI's to discover how much they know and plants evidence to put them off, making them think his wife and lawyer are the true murderer. Skipping out of town after everything falls into place, Logan comes withing a hair length of winning and proves himself one of the smartest foes to ever face the CSI's.
- Once Upon a Time:
- "Frozen": Ingrid the snow queen is Anna and Elsa of Arrendale's aunt and the Big Bad of season 4A. A charming, soft-spoken woman who was unjustly punished by her sister for an accidental murder and left to rot self-aware in an urn for decades, Ingrid desires a family once more and sets about to get it. Coming to the Land without Magic, Ingrid begins a scheme to help Emma Swan and Elsa become her new sisters and help them coqnuer their fears and embrace their powers. Ingrid plays the various heroes into helping her construct the Spell of Shattered Sight to destroy the citizens and allow her and her new sisters peace and even lets herself get captured in order to get close to Emma to emotionally manipulate her into setting off and allow her to embrace her heritage. Always calm, collected and charming, Ingrid even dies with true dignity accepting that what shes done was wrong and giving her life to fix it, ultimately allowing her to rejoin her sisters in the afterlife in one of the shows most touching send-offs.
- "Underworld": Hades, Lord of the Underworld is the God of Death and the Big Bad of season 5B. A smooth, soft-spoken and dapper Man of Wealth and Taste, Hades was cast out of Mount Olympus after an attempted coup and can only leave the Underworld if he were to find true love with his heart frozen, ridding him off positive emotions. Hades desires to woe the witch Zelena who hes in love with and puts the heroes through loops as they attempt to bring the deceased captain Killian "Hook" Jones back to life. Hades tricks Rumplestilskin into destroying their way out of the Underworld before revealing that he has a contract to ownership of Rumple's unborn child, forcing him into service. To stop anyone attempting to defeat him or weaken him, Hades manipulates Hook's brother into keeping the information containing his weakness out of the heroes hands and tricks Belle into damming Gaston to crush her hopes and bring his powers back to normal. Hades even knows when Zelena is captured by Rumplestilkin that Rumple will betray him and uses Emma as a contingency plan and later tricks the heroes into nearly getting trapped in the underworld forever by feeding them a false story about a way to bring Hook back to distract them. Hades ultimately proves to be one of the heroes greatest foes and very nearly succeeds in his plans to rule the mortal realm with Zelena by his side.
The Draftsman of Doom
Goku Black
Deathstroke
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Fixed it in the drafts.
This is what's in the drafts for Alphard btw:
- 428: Shibuya Scramble: Alphard is a terrorist mastermind who is so thorough nothing about her is known down to age and gender before the events of the game, and whose MO is creating plans that are, in her own words, perfectly imperfect, leaving small holes in her plans to add an element of randomness and coincidences to confuse her true intentions until it's far too late. She creates a plan to steal an antiviral agent for the deadly Ua virus in order to sell it to the CIA, while simultaneously taking out anybody who knows a way to get the antiviral. To do so, she first has Mamoru Tanaka inject Hitomi Osawa with the Ua virus, and then helping her father Kenji get her the antiviral so that she has it in her bloodstream. Then she approaches Maria Osawa masquerading as a friend of the mercenary Canaan to tell her that her sister Hitomi is going to be kidnapped, giving her a pendant with both a GPS tracker and an explosive inside. She has one of her subordinates, Leland Palmer, approach Daisuke Endo and tell him to kidnap Hitomi for the sake of his daughter, while keeping out that Hitomi has a twin to add an element of randomness to her plan. After Maria was inadvertently kidnapped instead, she injects her with the Ua virus. Throughout the events of the game, she masquerades as Canaan and continually saves Hitomi's life for the sake of gaining her trust so that she can gain access to the lab, and at one point rigs a van to explode with Tanaka inside so that there is no way to get into the antiviral lab without her assistance. She saves Hitomi's life from the explosion while at the same time taking some of her blood with the antiviral inside, ensuring that one of her goals is fulfilled. She then has the characters split into two teams, one to apprehend Palmer, who is pretending to be Alphard, and the other to go to the antiviral lab and get Maria the antidote. The team out to capture Palmer is intended to be blown up due to the explosive device she put in Palmer's briefcase, making a detonator to respond to the sound of Hitomi's ringtone with the intention to call her, and having a backup timer in the off chance that she can't call Hitomi, while at the antiviral lab, she is intended to break into the lab via hacking, which she ensures she does quickly due to already knowing the password, and then detonating the bomb inside of the pendant that Maria has. When she is confronted by Tateno after he learns her true identity, she attempts to manipulate him into shooting at her knowing that his fear of guns will cause him to miss. When Stanley arrives on the scene, she provokes Maria into attempting to shoot her allowing her to kill Kenji, then peacefully gives up knowing that Stanley's boss Gordon is on her side and will let her go once he detains her. In the end, while she was only able to obtain the antiviral in Hitomi's blood and was unable to fulfill any of her other goals, her plans failed due to things that are impossible to predict.
I'll... get to trimming it later today, that's going to need to lose at least 2/3 of its weight.
Goku Black
Woah is that 500 words. I don't think we even have an entry that's even 400 words .....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
We rarely have any over 250. Nothing’s gone over 300 yet. It was the user’s first EP so they probably just aren’t familiar with the lengths we aim for here, it’s fine I’ll work on it.
Anyways, here's what I've got for her:
- 428: Shibuya Scramble: Alphard is an elusive terrorist who seeks an antiviral agent for the Ua virus to sell to the CIA. Having Hitomi Osawa injected with Ua and assisting her father attain the antiviral agent so it's in Hitomi's bloodstream, having a GPS tracker planted on Hitomi and having her kidnapped for her purposes. When Hitomi's twin Maria is inadvertently kidnapped instead, Alphard masquerades as "Canaan", helping Hitomi to gain her trust to gain access to the antiviral lab, making many ploys to force Hitomi to work with her. Having the characters split into two teams: Alphard has one go after someone pretending to be her, intending for them all to be killed in an explosion along with the imposter; and the other is sent to the antiviral lab. Caught with her identity exposed, Alphard avoids being killed by exploiting the weaknesses of her captors and accepts her arrest, knowing her connections will see her set free.
I'm going to post it, if Taylor takes issue it'll be in the drafts.
It's less that I'm unfamiliar with the lengths, it's just that I'm really bad at trimming the fat and I tend to try and fit in most details. There was a similar problem for a CM draft I did a little while back, it was very long and I tried to fit in a lot of details. A couple incorrect things that I'll change is that Hitomi never had a GPS on her, the pendant was always with Maria, and that she only attempts to exploit their weaknesses which works depending on the ending, with Maria trying to shoot at her in the normal ending, but in the true ending neither of her attempted manipulations on those two work.
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
No worries, you can edit what you need on the drafts.
On the note of Deathstroke, does anyone know if any of his incarnations from the comics keep or are they too evil/too close to Villain Sue territory?
Goku Black
The stuff With Terra I think dqd his comic counterpart. You can't cite depending on the writer since it became a very key part if his character.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The fact is original Deathstroke is an ephebophile. The most infamous storyline with him, literally ever, is him fucking a mentally unstable teenage girl and the story bending over to excuse him for it doesnt change that. It's intrinsic to his character and isn't just a Depending on the Writer thing, nor an easily and quickly forgotten elements like Charles Xavier's weird romantic feelings for Jean Gray.
New 52 Slade...maybe? I didn't keep up
Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 9th 2020 at 11:39:50 AM
Goku Black
Yeah uh Dc Rebirth restored that story Judas contract as canon. So new 52 / dc rebirth is out too.
Hes also kinda an asshole their.
Edited by miraculous on Jun 9th 2020 at 11:46:16 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Oh, yeah, I was gonna say I certainly wouldn't count Judas Contract era Deathstroke, and if it's that big a part of his character? Not a chance.
EDIT: Isn't New 52/Rebirth Deathstroke also a seriously sadistic case of Abusive Parents?
I'll give the version of him proposed a though.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 9th 2020 at 11:48:16 AM
Should have an anime villain Lighty handed off to me up tonight or tomorrow, won't be a long one.
to that version of Deathstroke.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
So since I've mulled about it for a week or two now (and I've been busy with lots of other crap), I'm gonna talk about the sole candidate from Line of Duty, Lindsay Denton. This isn't gonna be a full EP though.
In large part because I don't think she counts.
She ticks many boxes, such as being a pro at Xanatos Speed Chess, being a Graceful Loser, and (perhaps her defining moment), uncovering the list of names of abusers involved in a pedophile ring and largely being responsible for Matthew Cottan being exposed and later killed. It's almost entirely because of Denton that AC-12 was able to expose this conspiracy to the public (since the actual cops are a bit inept).
The problem with Denton is that she almost never succeeds at anything she tries to achieve. She spends all of Season 2 trying to stay out of prison. She's convicted in the second episode. And despite later being broken out of prison, the protagonists find out she was guilty of taking bribe money, and the season ends with her right back in prison. While in prison, she's attacked by two inmates who try to crush her hands. She fends them off...only for two dirty cops to burn her hands with scalding water for talking to AC-12. In Season 3, after spending a little over a year in prison, she lies to the jury during a trial to get released early, saying that an undercover officer got mutually involved with her and had sex with her (they didn't, but they came close, and Denton recorded the "noises" they made). And it actually works. ...And then she finds herself stuck in a shitty apartment working as a cleaner in a grocery store, despite thinking she'd get her original jobs as a detective back.
It seems like everytime Denton hits a breakthrough, something she knows she has no control over happens, and she basically says "Well, shit. Guess I just have to suck it up." And again, I do give her props for knowing when she's lost. But I feel like she ends up getting put through the wringer far too much to be an MB, even if her last act is to expose a pedophile ring while she's staring at a man seconds away from blowing her brains out.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Jun 9th 2020 at 3:27:50 PM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Suggested edit to fix the spelling of a character’s name. This is the current entry for Plutarch:
His last name is Heavensbee, not Havensbee. Honest mistake though.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 8th 2020 at 3:10:38 AM