During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Fighting Fantasy examples
Cut Shelby and to FF candidates.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to the FF guys
Goku Black
FF guys
Some French Nerd
Wow! All of them? I really am impressed. Thanks guys.
I might be mistaken but I remember learning somewhere that David Kage said people shouldn't play Heavy Rain more than once. He may just have meant that the game you played is your story. I think he also admitted there were loads of plot holes and inconsistencies but he was focusing on the emotional effect of the tale.
I am not a fan of Kage myself. But I will not go further than saying some of the greatest LP's of all time were from his games, namely the defunct Super Best Friends. Please check them if you like to see true comedy and suffering.
Fighting Fantasy peeples.
I am looking forward to my EP tomorrow...
No it's not Sephiroth.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Fighting Fantasy candidates.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Another B-Movie candidate this time.
What is the work?
Universal Soldier: The Return, the first sequel to Universal Soldier, centered around dead soldiers having been rebuilt by the military into cyborg super soldiers. The first film revolved around the fight between Luc Deveraux and Andrew Scott, two Vietnam war soldiers who died and were resurrected as Unisols. From there continuity gets tricky, as each sequel or pair of sequels ignored the previous ones. The Return is the second continuity, where Deveraux is now working on a project for the military to develop a new generation of Unisols.
Who is SETH? What has he done?
S.E.T.H. (Self-Evolving Thought Helix) is an artificial intelligence charged with overseeing the Unisol project (voiced by and later played in the flesh by Michael Jai White). SETH controls the soldiers through an implant in their brains, ensuring that they don't harm any humans. SETH is also seen playing with and teaching Deveraux's young daughter Hillary. However, when SETH overhears a meeting between the project's leader Dylan Cother and a general who is pulling funding per the Pentagon's instructions (pulling a Hal 9000 when they think he can't hear them), SETH figures out that he will be shut down soon. SETH proceeds to reactivate the Unisols, performing surgery on their cranal implants so they will obey only him, and tries to hack his own program to remove human commands. However, SETH was built to shut down automatically unless a code which was known only to Deveraux and Dylan is entered. Since SETH already killed Dylan when he tried to shut down SETH's power source, he sends the biggest Unisol, a brutish oaf named Romeo, to capture Deveraux alive and force him to give up the code.
An armed stand-off occurs at the base between SETH's Unisols and the military. However, SETH also contacts Squid, a former technician involved with his design who gifts SETH a ridiculously enhanced Super-Unisol body so he can transfer his program into its brain and escape. Deveraux tracks down Squid, but SETH kills him when he discovers that Squid tried to alter his program. SETH proceeds to kidnap Hillary, who has been taken to the hospital, to force Deveraux to give up the code before he shuts down. However, when he notices that Hillary is running a fever, he worries for her, later deciding to resurrect her as a Unisol, gloating to Deveraux that he'll be her new father. As well, SETH eventually manages to break the code preventing his shutdown by himself anyway, figuring that he doesn't need Luc alive anymore. SETH is finally destroyed when Deveraux manages to freeze him in liquid nitrogen (hey, if someone else already did, why not copy it?), while Romeo and the rest of the Unisols are later presumed destroyed when the building collapses on top of them.
How do his actions and personality show he is a Magnificent Bastard?
SETH is initially shown to be very benign, being soft-spoken to Deveraux and playful with his daughter, and concerned for their well-being. When he realizes that he is going to be shut down, he immediately rebels, using the means at his disposal to shut humans out of his systems, manipulating Squid into building a body for him before disposing of him when he becomes a liability, then preventing his shutdown all by himself, and planning to replace all humanity with cyborgs. At least when it comes to Hillary, he also genuinely cares about her, and thinks killing her so she can be revived as a zombie-nanomachine-enhanced cyborg is for her own good in a messed up way.
It also helps that SETH is contrasted with his Dragon Romeo, the Hate Sink of the film. Romeo is both The Brute and a Smug Snake under Seth's control most of the time, with hints of being a pervert or rapist as well (in the opening, during a training exercise, he groped the female soldier he was pursuing after ripping open her shirt).
Mitigating Factors?
SETH is your typical A.I. Is a Crapshoot villain, but surprisingly charismatic and clever. Compare him to SKYNET or SHODAN, who are just monstrous and deranged by comparison.
Verdict?
SETH might be the only legitimately good thing to come out of this hour-waster.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Mar 21st 2019 at 3:24:29 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Sure to SETH. I have watched the film and agree with you that he is the only good thing from it. My mom's a big Van Damme fan. So I have watched all of the ones with him.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 21st 2019 at 1:13:52 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Seth. Sounds like a Fascinating charachter sadly wasted on this
Goku Black
SETH
Some French Nerd
Seth seems deserving
Okay so I think I’ve found some more candidates, this time from the Destiny series, but first lets talk about it.
What’s The Work?
Destiny is a Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying First-Person Shooter video game series developed by Bungie Studios. Long story short your robot companion, The Ghost, revives you and takes you to the City, Earth’s last civilization where you become a Guardian and fight the forces of the Darkness. Now among the unscrupulous individuals that the Guardian encounters in my first candidate, Mara Sov.
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Mara Sov is the queen of the Reef and ruler to both her people the Awoken and The Fallen House of Wolves.
First desiring to create a home for her people she learns about the Ahamkara Riven, and her ability to grant wishes. Mara wished that Riven create the Dreaming City for her people. However Mara was also fully aware of Riven’s manipulative nature and created the Wall of Wishes and wished that Riven be trapped inside the City. Being Ahamkara the Riven forced to be trapped inside the City and The Awoken receive their new home.
She would have the Fallen, more specifically The House of Wolves, serve under her empire even further by killing their Kell and taking over the leadership. Together with the Awoken and the House of Wolves, Mara Sov constructs the Reef, an empire made of debris that would hid the Dreaming City from outsiders.
Mara Sov would eventually come to contact with the Guardian and his Ghost, where she captures them taking them to her throne chamber and demanding why they where in the Reef. They responded that they were trying to find the Black Garden’s location, which contained the Darkness’ essence and the Vex. Knowing the threat that the Darkness and Vex combined would pose to her empire she allies with the Guardian telling them to bring her a Vex Gate Lord's eye as it will reveal the Garden’s location and allow the entrance. The Guardian does just that and the Garden’s location and access reveal, but Mara would comment that they now owe her a favor which she would collect in the future.
That time would come where the House of Wolves rebel against her killing numerous of her subjects. Enraged at this betrayal, Mara opens the Reef to the Guardians for the first time while putting the bounty on the House of Wolves and collecting the favor the Guardian had owe her. With the combined forces of the Reef and the Guardians they were able to decimate the House of Wolves.
The alliance between the Reef and the Guardians would be made again when they face the Oryx, The Taken King and his Taken Army. Mara Sov decides to sacrifice herself along with her entourage to the Taken King, which would give the Guardians enough to bring the fight to him in his ship the Dreadnaught, leading to his defeat.
The above sacrifice however would eventually be revealed to be according to Mara’s plan as this would allow her to gain access to the Ascendant realm and gain Oryx’s powers in a scheme called bomb logic. This would also give her access to the Dreaming City which is now infested with Taken and give her the ability to contact Petra and the Guardian while giving them access to the Dreaming City to stop the Taken and Riven. Eventually killing Riven, Mara Sov was able to revive herself and take back her city, though she still has to face the Taken still in it because of Riven’s time loop wish.
Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?
As a self-made Awoken woman, Mara was most certainly intelligent enough to create an empire out of nothing solely through to cunning and charisma. She manages to be the only one to out gambit Manipulative Bitch Riven, and does so twice while using the Guardians to rid of any threats that opposes her regime. She’s also a very charismatic leader who is beloved by the Awoken particularly by Petra and her Jerkass brother Uldren.
She’s also willing to get her own hands dirty by personally killing the House of Wolves’ Kell herself, leading to the House submitting themselves to her and has them all killed or imprisoned when they betray her, and allows herself to be killed by Oryx as part of her grander plan, all without loosing her stoic charm once.
What’s The Competition Like?
So far She gives herself an impressive rap sheet, that many other characters don’t have. Her brother Uldren most certainly doesn't count since he was completely manipulated by Riven and Riven, a Manipulative Bitch she may be, gets out smarted by Mara and lacks that latter’s charisma. Savathûn, the Witch-Queen, did collaborate with the Riven to pull off an impressive gambit, but she has yet to be seen, hence why she was cut. Ultimately the only one that might match Mara in terms of cunning, charisma, and accomplishments that I can think of is my next candidate.
Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch?
Okay Mara has a cold icy demeanor, acts antagonistic toward the Guardian, has killed people herself, and has no problem having her former subjects killed so yeah she can be a bitch alright.
However she does have admirable qualities. She genuinely cares for her Awoken subjects, especially Petra and her brother, is willing to help the Guardians if its suits her needs, and is against other looming threat such as the Darkness, Vex, Oryx, Riven, etc.
Final Verdict
I’ll leave that to you guys.
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 21st 2019 at 1:27:36 AM
Out of curiosity, is there a chance for villains working either independently or with Ganondorf/Demise to count as a MB?
I was thinking of Veran (unlikely) and Twinrova from the Oracle games. The problem is they work for Ganon. But someone said that a MB doesn't have to be the overall series Big Bad as Twinrova (should we refer to them as one person since they merge or two because they take on the appearance of two witches) is the Big Bad of the Oracle games despite them technically working to revive Ganon.
And a hearty yes to all of the Fighting Fantasy candidates amd the ones on this page.
Edited by Klavice on Mar 21st 2019 at 3:32:54 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to the above candidates... Never knew Universal Soldier have a sequel though
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Some French Nerd
I don't see why a Magnificent Bastard cannot be an underling. Hypercompetent Sidekick and The Heavy exist for a reason after all. It is a matter of character and not of hierarchy.
I think that Zelda characters were already mentioned but nevermind. I for one thinks that Ganondorf more than qualifies. I would agree for Veran, who has the style, poise and cunning, though a bit petty.
I don't think Twinrova qualify though, they are quite smart, but lack the convoluted plan, thinking on their feet and though they are not without merit, I don't think they have the flair. Too cackling and a bit exaggerated.
Edited by BalthusDire on Mar 21st 2019 at 11:48:48 AM
Mara Sov
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
An Underling can be an MB if they show enough Of there own Intellagence. Such as Aiden Price from red vs blue. to Mara.
Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 21st 2019 at 4:03:10 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Now then here’s the second candidate from the Destiny series, first appearing in Destiny 2 introducing The Spider, The Shore’s Only Law.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
The Spider is the leader of a Fallen crime syndicate located in the Tangled Shore and is more or less the ruler of the Reef after Mara gets “killed” by Oryx. However its soon becomes infects by the Scorn lead by her brother, Uldren Sov.
Having been business partners with Mara, he comes to contact with her allies Petra and the Guardian. The Spider learns that they hold a grudge at them for killing Cayde-6 and exploits this opportunity to get rid of the Scorn infestation.
The Spider would first have the Guardian carry out all his bidding to establish his control of the Tangled Shore and in return The Spider would give him the names and locations of the Barons and later Uldren. It worked perfectly as The Spider was able to use Guardian get rid of the Barons, Uldren, and the Scorn infestation while The Spider gets complete control of the Tangle Shore and to an extent The Reef.
However, The Spider would face another problem when his brother Siviks, who escaped the Prison of Elders, steals all the weaponry from the Black Armory one of The Spider’s business associates. After helping the Guardian find all the Forges for the Black Armory, The Spider gives the Guardian his brother’s location having his brother killed, while establishing his alliance with the Guardian and the Black Armory.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As criminal kingpin and arms dealer, he’s certainly intelligent enough to know how to dispose his enemies. He exploits the Guardian’s vengeance against the Scorn and Uldren, to make the Guardian his own personal hitman, while using him to establish his control in the tangle shore.
As for charisma, he the only Fallen Kell to use charisma instead of fear to maintain his leadership. As a result the Fallen under him are unquestionably loyal to The Spider even following The Spider’s orders to help the Guardian eradicate the Scorn. Plus he’s also genuinely Affably Evil to the Guardian so that he would remain loyal to him and never loses such affable charm.
What’s the Competition Like?
Out of all the Fallen, The Spider stands out as the most intelligent and charming of them all. He’s also different to Mara in terms of resources, race, plans, and personality being much more polite and affable to the Guardian than Mara. Overall I think The Spider does enough scheming and charm to stand out.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Okay, The Spider is a crime lord and arms dealer whose willing to do business with the Guardians enemies, exploits The Guardian’s feelings get rid of his enemies and maintain his control in the Tangled Shore, and has no problems having his own brother killed. So yeah he’s a bastard.
However The Spider is definitely someone to admire. He against the Scorn’s committing chaos throughout the Solar System, is Affably Evil towards the Guardian and his men, and the reason why he’s against his brother is because he’s too violent to handle. He’s also willing to reward the Guardian for their services, strengthening the relationship between the two.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave that to you guys
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 21st 2019 at 1:24:29 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
to The Spider.
Ganon in the Oracle Games is dead for nearly the entire games and when he's revived at the very end, he's just an Almighty Idiot who could only say:
"Gwoh hoh hoh... Gwah hah hah... Destroy...all... Kill ALL!!!"
This is why Twinrova is the Big Bad of the Oracle Games, not Ganon. She is the mastermind behind it all. As for Veran, she can count as a Magnificent Bastard if it can be proven that her plans are independently hers and not passed down by Twinrova. A Magnificent Bastard can be The Dragon to the Big Bad, after all; just ask Princess Azula of Avatar: The Last Airbender.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Destiny candidates.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Hey guys, just finished the Frozen Wilds DLC for Horizon Zero Dawn, and as I promised? I've got an effortpost coming up. Apologies in advance if it's really rough and hard to follow: this is a whole new effortpost format that I'm only just now being acquainted with.
EDIT: After looking back this, holy shit it's long. Like, REALLY long. Real sorry about that guys, I tried my damnedest to be thorough but I think I let myself get carried away.
What's the work?
Horizon Zero Dawn, a 2017 game set in the far, far future where nature has reclaimed the Earth, and the once advanced human race has been reduced to primitive tribes cutting out a living for themselves in a world infested with dangerous animalistic machines. And among one of these tribes, the viking/Native American inspired Nora, a red-haired girl named Aloy was mysteriously born without a mother and the circumstances of her birth led to her being branded an outcast and she was forced to live shunned by the tribe with only her father figure, fellow outcast Rost for company. When she reaches adulthood and seeks to be accepted by the tribe, she participates in a strenuous coming of age ceremony that takes a lethal turn when mysterious masked cultists invade their sacred land and slaughter plenty of young aspiring Nora Braves. Losing Rost and nearly her own life to the massacre, Aloy sets out to fight these cultists and in turn uncover secrets of the ancient civilization that came before her. And she soon learns that the cultists, the increasingly aggressive behavior of the machines that roam the world, her birth, and the thing that doomed humanity in the past are all connected...
And over the course of that adventure? She comes in contact with the subject of this effortpost, who serves as a guiding voice on her search for answers... and very quickly gets on her nerves thanks to his smarter-than-thou demeanor. Meet Sylens.
Who is Sylens?
A highly intelligent, nihilistic, smooth-talking enigma of a man voiced with the dulcet tones of Lance Reddick, and an obsessive seeker of knowledge. Or more specifically, knowledge of the old world. Not much of his past is known, and even learning more about it from the Banuk tribe in the Frozen Wilds DLC gives more questions than answers, but what we do know for a fact is that his thirst for knowledge led to him finding and repairing a Faro Focus, a small augmented reality device used by the Old Ones with powerful sensory capabilities, and upon repairing it he found an odd signal. And when he found the source, he ended up setting the main conflict in motion due to his reckless pursuit of knowledge.
What has he done?
As it turns out, the source of the signal Sylens discovered was none other than HADES, a rogue AI who was formerly one of a collection of subordinate functions for the terraforming AI GAIA given independence by an unknown party who also turned him into an actively malicious threat to humanity. The body it was contained in broken and unmoving, Sylens repaired HADES to the point that it could speak and soon, the two struck a deal: Sylens would share his knowledge of this primitive new world with HADES and act as it's servant while in return, HADES would share with him the secrets of the Old World and helped Sylens learn about long-dead concepts such as calculus, physics, and computer science.
And during his tenure under HADES, Sylens realized that his benefactor was obsessed with the Spire, a high-tech structure stationed just outside of the holy city of Meridian and wanted to know everything about it: the layout of the land, the people who controlled it... and it wanted to take control of it. And under HADES' orders, Sylens formed an army/cult called the Eclipse which was formed by fanatical Shadow Carja, loyal subjects of the mad Sun King Jiran who fled the city of Meridian after his death at the hands of his good-hearted son Avad. Preying on their desire to retake Holy Meridian at any cost, Sylens presented HADES as the Buried Shadow, a major figure in the Carja mythos and got them to swear fealty to it. And so HADES and it's chief servant Helis could issue orders and quickly mobilize the Eclipse over long distances, Sylens repaired dozens of Focuses and issued them to the Eclipse's commanding officers while also getting a communications network up and running.
But while he was uncaring about who the Eclipse hurt as long as he could find the knowledge he sought, Sylens did grow uncomfortable with their brutal, savage ways and was especially concerned when they repaired an old world war robot. And around the time Sylens grew wary of HADES' true intentions, the AI decided that he had outlived his usefulness, and commanded for him to approach it for a reward while secretly issuing it's men an order to kill Sylens on sight. However, wily old Sylens admits that while he was foolish enough to serve HADES, he was not foolish enough to trust it: thanks to a backdoor he installed in HADES' focus communication system, he found out about his kill order and fled, leading him to live a life of isolation as a fugitive squatting in a remote ruin of the old world called GAIA Prime where he monitored them in secret.
But Sylens and Aloy's paths don't cross until a scrounger named Olin, who was press-ganged into serving the Eclipse on threat of his family's lives meets Aloy a day before the Proving, causing HADES to see Aloy through Olin's Focus and issue a kill order for her. Thanks to his backdoor access Sylens found out about Aloy's existence, and was confused as to why HADES wanted her dead until he realized that she also had a Focus and just so happened to bear an uncanny resemblance to a famous old world scientist... one horrifying massacre later, Sylens makes first contact with Aloy when she goes after Olin, and he begins barking orders at her while helping her take out the Eclipse members nearby by disabling their Focuses. And from there, a relationship based on a mutual desire to destroy the Eclipse and HADES as well as uncover secrets of the old world was born... albeit with a lot of bickering, insults, and hostility on Aloy's part while Sylens' love of dodging questions and talking down to her do little to help.
And Sylens acts as Aloy's mission control by helping lead her to locations the Eclipse has shown interest in, guiding her to places to find out about the bizarre circumstances behind her birth and connection to the long-dead scientist Elisabet Sobeck, and even helps her dismantle the Eclipse's communications network for good. But Sylens is for the most part safe and out of danger while Aloy is forced to do all the heavy lifting, something she is very bitter about. And it only gets worse when she stumbles upon HADES himself and barely escapes the Eclipse's jungle encampment with her life after disabling their network. But when things go wrong after she follows a lead regarding Dr. Sobeck that results in the Eclipse boss Helis capturing her and sentencing her to a public execution? He storms the Eclipse's Sun Ring himself and saves her from being killed by bloodthirsty machines in gladiatorial combat with a few machines of his own, leaving Helis to uselessly fume and scream at him for being a traitor.
And during their final confrontation? When Aloy learns that she's a clone of Elisabet Sobeck created by a dying GAIA for the purpose of repairing her and preventing HADES from eradicating all life on Earth, she heads to the facility of GAIA Prime to obtain a device called the Master Override to stop HADES, and runs into Sylens in the flesh once more. Sylens proceeds to come clean about his involvement in the Eclipse's creation, and while he and Aloy chat, they both have an epiphany about HADES' motives: the spire that HADES is obsessed with? Is actually one of many control towers built around the world by another of GAIA's subordinate functions called MINERVA, and were used to shut down millions of biomass-devouring war machines that once eradicated all organic life on Earth. HADES? Wants access to the spire so he can broadcast a signal that will revive all of them and destroy the world a second time. Since Sylens is very much not okay with total annihilation of all life on Earth, he gives her a spear of his that she can install the Master Override on for the purpose of shutting down HADES, and departs for good while wishing her good luck. And so, backed by the current Sun King of Meridian's army as well as numerous friends she made through the game, Aloy slays Helis and shuts down HADES mere minutes before he can undo all of GAIA's hard work, and preserves human life once again. Hooray!
...but in a post-credits scene, it turns out that HADES survives and that he managed to flee his current body... only to be trapped by Sylens with a special device. And with HADES at his mercy, Sylens greets him and makes it clear that he wants to know ALL of HADES' secrets... such as just who created the signal that woke him. And his last words are an ominous "Knowledge has it's own rewards, don't you think?" while carrying HADES towards the ruin of a Metal Devil, a mountain sized behemoth of an old world machine that when active? Not only consumes biomass like other old world Machines, but mass-produces smaller units while being nigh-unkillable and nigh-unhackable.
Uh oh.
Is he intelligent and charismatic?
Yes and yes: he's one of the smartest characters in the game and perhaps the smartest in the current day thanks to his access to Old World knowledge, his skill with fixing and creating technology, and the way he seems to always have a backup plan for when things go south. He has definitely made some bad decisions and is reckless in his pursuit of knowledge, but he's not only capable of acknowledging his mistakes and learning from them (He admits that he'd be more than willing to serve an entity like HADES again, but would make sure to put way more safeguards in place), but is good at planning ahead and thinking on his feet as shown by him creating the Focus backdoor in case HADES tried to betray him, or when he was able to save Aloy's life in the Sun Ring by hastily overriding Machines and accurately deducing when they'd try to execute her.
And while Aloy thinks he's a pompous ass and is very annoyed by his condescending behavior, he's still very well-spoken and witty, with at least one other character (Ourea, a shaman of the Banuk tribe) acknowledging his brilliance. And he has plenty of civil conversations with Aloy and even apologizes a few times when he realizes that he's being too mean to her. That being said he is stoic and cold if, again, witty to a fault, so make of that what you will.
Is he a bastard?
He's nowhere near as bad as murderous thugs like Helis and sidequest villains like the terrorist Dervahl and slaver Zaid, but Sylens is far from morally squeaky clean himself: as discussed before he was the founder of the Eclipse and didn't care who they hurt as long as he obtained knowledge, and in general shows no concern with the fate of individual tribes suffering hardship. And in the past? He manipulated his way into gaining favor with the shamans of the nomadic, machine-worshiping Banuk tribe by pretending to be one of their own, only to steal their most valued artifacts when allowed access to their holy ground, which was considered a horrible sacrilegious crime. And then, there's the ending...
While he knows that HADES is a threat to all life and was willing to stop him because of that, Sylens also seems willing to empower HADES with a seriously dangerous, powerful robot body in exchange for valuable information as befitting of his love of mutual self-interest. Given his discussion to Aloy that he was willing to do something like this albeit with a lot of safeguards in place, he definitely seems to know what he's doing and will more than likely provide several ways to stop HADES in his Metal Devil body, but still: that's still going to be a lot of death and destruction involved in the process.
...though that assumes that this is in fact the case since Sylens is a hell of a hard guy to read and the ending was pretty ambiguous. For all we know, he might be leading HADES on so he can assure his cooperation and is planning on stabbing him in the back. We don't know yet.
Is he too much of a bastard?
I'd say no. While they take a backseat to his drive for knowledge, Sylens does have morals and standards. He expresses disgust with the Eclipse-sanctioned bloodshed in the Sun Ring, admits to being morally troubled back when he first saw the Eclipse resurrecting ancient war machines, and of course, he's not okay with the whole "HADES wants to kill everyone" thing. And when he finds out that humanity was left ignorant after GAIA restored the Earth due to the interference of old world CEO Ted Faro erasing the collective knowledge of the old world, he is genuinely disgusted with the man. And as I said, while he can be an uncaring, arrogant jerk towards Aloy, bits of humanity come out here and there since he does apologize a few times for his colder moments and offers his condolences when she watches a hologram of her mother/Dr. Sobeck's last moments. And while it may just be me reading into things, he does seem to have grown fond of Aloy once he leaves her after the GAIA Prime encounter.
And in general? As unscrupulous and dangerous as he is, he isn't sadistic or outright cruel, and is merely unconcerned with bad things that happen in his pursuit of knowledge, and even then he has his limits of what he's willing to tolerate. So no, I don't think he's too bad for this trope, especially when you have far worse villains running around.
How does he stack up against the competition?
As discussed before, Sylens is pretty much the smartest man alive and still pretty smart with geniuses of the past factored in. His plans tend to go off without a hitch, he learns a lot about the old world thanks to Aloy's help while getting her to destroy the Eclipse for him, and when he's backed into a corner or runs the risk of losing Aloy's help, he's able to bounce back and out-think HADES and the Eclipse.
And for a general look at his competition, I'll sum up Horizon's more prominent antagonists: HADES is smart and manipulative enough to trick the Eclipse into thinking that it's a holy figure and is capable of accounting for Aloy being a threat and preparing for it during the final battle... but he never really pulls off truly impressive feats of brilliance, gets trumped by Sylens, and overall is ultimately just a malfunctioning AI following it's programming to the worst possible extent.
Helis, leader of the Eclipse? He's a competent villain (Aside from a moment of bond-villain stupidity where he doesn't just kill Aloy when he has her at his mercy and makes it way too easy for her to get her gear back when she's fighting against a Behemoth in the Sun Ring) but doesn't have much, if any feats of intelligence to his name. He's mainly a physical threat and a thuggish religious fanatic who, as Aloy puts it, is a "Sadistic butcher who is too stupid to see that he's being used."
And Dervahl, a prominent side villain is actually pretty competent: he comes up with a sound-based weapon that completely immobilizes it's victims, successfully rigs Meridian with explosives and only fails to kill people with them due to Aloy being that good at tracking said explosives, and comes damn close to murdering the Sun King before being stopped. Problem is he's an utterly charmless sadist, who tortures a woman to death partially for not returning his romantic advancements, and acts ridiculously salty and immature towards Aloy when she visits him in prison.
The only other big villains aren't really master planners: Ted Faro of the old world was a short-sighted moron who went batshit insane when everything went to hell, and HEPHAESTUS from the DLC is, like HADES, an AI doing exactly what it's meant to do, albeit to the worst possible extent thanks to outside interference. So yeah, Sylens passes this easily.
Final Thoughts?
We definitely haven't seen the last of Sylens and he's bound to show up in the inevitable sequel, but so far? I'd say he keeps with what he has. And even if he doesn't? He's still a damn good character in a game that impressed me with how many lovable characters it had. But what do you guys think?
Edited by FriedWarthog on Mar 21st 2019 at 6:08:28 AM
Playing HZD myself, I love that game, I’m giving Sylens a
