During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I'll leave that to the thread.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I'd personally recommend making a sub-page for RWBY fan-works before that, since it's a RWBY fanfic. There'd be about 15 entries for RWBY fan works overall.
Edited by chasemaddigan on May 10th 2022 at 8:40:30 AM
Consider discussion on that topic open.
Showtime!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Oleg, and to Chase's idea of a rwby fanfic subpage
Can Web Animation also be given its own page? There are currently 16 examples in the folder (Box Assassin was moved to the correct folder) with at least 4 more on the way (from Interface, Madness Combat, Childrin R Skary, and Among us Out)
We're quickly expanding into more page requests so lemme double check in the morning: I'd like to remind everyone we also don't want original pages too short.
I wanted to socialize with all you fine folks some more but I'm quite tired so I'm gonna try and do that pending update I owe and call it a day.
The Moron
Honestly, I don’t think any pages are necessary. I’m pretty certain this fic is gonna cap at 7 and there’s no real reason to move it or the rest of the fics in that folder. I think just shove Hazel at the bottom of the tree and leave it at that
for Oleg.
It's 1:00 in the morning. I'm sleep-deprived. I said it'd be a week. I lied. It was a night.
Let's do this.
What's the work?
Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark is a musical with a... complicated history. Beset by a Troubled Production with a lot of contentious behind-the-scenes drama, it's a musical adaptation of Spider-Man, combining elements from the Raimi films with elements from the comics. A very stylish but very strange show, its original run, a tonally bizarre piece with incredibly dark themes and an arthouse style mixed with massive camp, was met with horrid reception.
The result was a famous retool into a spectacle show that focused the campy elements and minimized the weirdly dark, self-important, and strangely horny traits of the show, adding a whole lot more superhero fun into the mix. The end result is a pretty average spectacle show known as Turn off the Dark 2.0, which demotes previous leading antagonist Arachne to an extra and re-centers a fan-favorite villain as the Big Bad.
Let's get straight to this mistake I spent two hours, eleven minutes, and my mental health making. Shall we?
Who is the Green Goblin?
Norman Osborn is... basically what you'd expect. A Composite Character with Doc Ock, Osborn wants to change the world by altering human DNA. Seeing a future that is better for humanity but believing they won't understand him, Osborn's story arc really kicks off when the patriotic military organization known as Viper Worldwide (Yes, they were the US military in 1.0, why do you ask?) demand he accelerate his work so they can make super soldiers. Believing that Peter Parker stole his research after discovering Spider-Man exists, Osborn indeed accelerates the project against the wishes of his wife Emily. Emily perishes in the experiment, but Osborn lives— and emerges a new man. The Green Goblin.
Now a much more flamboyant and showy character, Goblin starts his conquest by kidnapping six employees and turning them into mutant supervillains like himself, giving us the surprising bop that is "A Freak Like Me Needs Company," introducing his new Sinister Six to the audience. (This includes Swiss Miss for some reason, a character that does not exist anywhere else in any version, who is a woman made of knives. Whatever, we're rolling.) Goblin has decided that humanity honestly would be better off under his vision, and that his genius has been stifled. Coupled with some growing madness, including hallucinating Emily, Goblin sends his posse out to rampage across the city. When Spider-Man stops them, Goblin visits the Daily Bugle and... let's say twists facts a bit to get them to print that he and Spider-Man are in league since he is technically responsible for Spidey existing.
Goblin then proceeds to send Spidey a message over the city's television waves, telling him that he's going to start hurting his family if Spider-Man doesn't come to him face to face, mano a mano. Peter, who's tried to retire, realizes that facing Goblin is what the city needs. Goblin, atop the Chrysler Building, boasts to the audience that he's going to destroy Manhattan anyways— he's come to believe humanity is irredeemable and that the best thing to do is wipe everything out and start a clean slate. The arachnid avenger arrives, and Green Goblin drops a Wham Line, asking him to take off his mask... "Pretty please, Peter Parker." He then explains that he genuinely thinks he and Peter could be allies with some legitimately hilarious dialogue (You can be my boy wonder! Or... I could be your boy wonder! Tell you what, we'll trade off boy wonder duties!) He notes that he's going to start a new strain of humanity no matter what, and Peter isn't having it.
Goblin reveals that he has Mary Jane dangling off the Chrysler Building. He and Peter have a climactic fight that is basically the Signature Scene of the show, flying around and duking it out above the audience's heads. Finally, the two return to the roof, and though Goblin won the fight, he decides to finish things with a dramatic flourish by pushing his piano off the building onto the spectators below. Spidey, having webbed him to the piano, tries his best to warn Goblin, but it's too late and Goblin sends himself flying off the building.
Is Goblin magnificent?
Okay, this is easy for charisma. Yes. He's Laughably Evil, a great example of Evil Is Hammy, and pretty much universally considered the best part of the show thanks to an epic performance from Broadway darling Patrick Page (Who we know for his role as my man Hades!) For planning, he's also good. He's a great planner who deduces Spider-Man's identity thanks to context clues, makes supervillains, plans a conquest of New York, and even has Mary Jane kidnapped as insurance. He's hilarious, and he's a very hammy and fun villain. He goes out with a Big "NO!" but that's pretty understandable when you accidentally send yourself plummeting off a building. Add some absolute Villainous Valor, encouraging Peter to come at him and noting he doesn't fear death at all, and we're good on him.
He's 100% insane but he keeps a fun, theatrical demeanor the whole while, even passing off his hallucinations of Emily with a joke and a sly nod to the audience. He makes his mistakes, like assuming Peter stole his research, something that even causes him to yell "Emily died because of you!" in the climax, but he always recovers and even his final blunder is... while very anticlimactic, a very understandable mistake in the heat of the moment when he'd both psychologically and physically dominated the climactic showdown.
Is Goblin a bastard?
If not for the campy tone of the show, this would be a genuine issue. Goblin's plan is, in short, a complete annihilation and genetic recreation of the human race. He genuinely believes in recreating the entire species in his own image, called out as playing God, and has an air of superiority, even acknowledging it when she wraps an arm around Peter's shoulder amicably and asks "Ever read Nietzsche?" That said, this is such a campy show that I'm not really gonna call it a full-on exploration of supremacy. He's an over-the-top cartoon villain who totally plans to kill everyone and recreate Earth, but this is not played with the full stakes I'd ask of it for disqualification. Plus, he plans to apply this completely equally, and shows camaraderie with the mutated employees (Even referring to them as his "family," though whether his care is genuine is quite dubious) and Peter.
Then we get into the fact he genuinely loves his wife, his respect for Peter is genuine and he does seem to want him on his side, and is only this way because a horrific accident tainted his mind. Let's be clear— Goblin and Norman are one and the same and Goblin has agency, even pulling a Redemption Rejection and personally declaring Norman dead in favor of the new, mutated Goblin, but it doesn't remove the tragic element from the character that makes it much easier to tolerate his worse qualities. Goblin is all of Norman's worst impulses brought to the surface. He was always an egotistical scientist who thought humanity needed to just listen to his plans, and the transformation and the death of his wife hurt him enough to make him snap and force it on the world.
And again, I can't understate how humorous he is and how over-the-top all this is played. He's a very silly villain and while his plan might be disqualifying in a darker work, this just isn't that kind of show.
Conclusion?
I say yes, and... my god, was this a bizarre adventure.
Edited by Riley1sCool on May 10th 2022 at 11:37:04 AM
I would like to draw everyone's attention to Hyouka:
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Without a doubt, Oreki.
- The Empress, Fuyumi Irisu definitely.
- Episode 17 definitely cements Tanabe Jirou as one. He plans and carries out the Jūmonji thefts in an elaborate ploy to get his student council president, Muneyoshi back into manga drawing. To Tanabe's dismay, It fails.
I have trouble believing any of these were approved by the thread.
It is I, the narrator, categorising addict and writer of books you haven't read.
Hobby
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
They were not. Cut away!
Yes to Norman.
Showtime!
to Goblin
Woagh
Well that show sounds like a trip.
the Goblin.
Professor Gigachad
So I have a new MB proposal.
What's the Work?
Monsters Among Humanity is a 2022 Wattpad story made by author and troper CrystallicWolf108. To keep things simple it is a story where different races of monsters live among humans either openly or in secret. This causes some racial tension to put it bluntly. One of the many species is a vampire and there is one person who is a successful hunter of vampires.
Who is the Midnight and what does he do?
Midnight had a pretty horrible past. He was once a normal human named Gabriel Moreau whose village was bombed to the ground and his entire family killed by an army of evil vampires and them trying to stop that army in the case of the bomb. He as a result came to believe that vampires were a genuine threat to humanity that he needed to stop. He joined a group of vampire hunters and eventually became one of their top members.
Midnight due to his high intelligence is an incredibly successful hunter, having slain over 30 vampires, in each case likely studying them and then killing them efficiently when he discovered who they were. Midnight also was responsible for killing Cassie's family.
Midnight years later would end up rediscovering Cassie at the time he didn't know she was one of the girls who escape his previous hunting. He however had suspicions that she is a vampire and was ready to prove it. He would throughout the entire story carefully stalk Cassie and learn more about her to eventually figure it out.
He would disguise himself as a security guard and trick them he would also disguise himself as a fan of Charlotte to tricky Zephixa into giving up info on Cassie, and he would also manipulate a car accident for Zephixa's publisher so that Cassie doesn't become more famous so he can kill her more secretly if she turns out to be a vampire.
Eventually, Cassie would expose herself as a vampire but would get away from Midnight when he attempts to kill her. He goes on the news and puts a bounty on Cassie's head knowing it will help flush her out. Midnight ends up at first teaming up with Derek Hunter and Heather Pepitone but when Derek reveals his plan to bomb several houses to lure the heroes out Midnight is horrified and starts pretending to go along while secretly working against Derek. One of these ways was calling the cops, pretending to be a terrorist threatening to blow up the whole village, causing more police to arrive faster.
Midnight gets into a fight with Cassie and in the end, he realizes that not all vampires are evil, as he thought, and he decides to turn himself into the police for his crimes. However, instead of putting him in jail, the police offer Midnight the chance to become a bounty hunter and actually help the world which he agrees to.
Is he Magnificent?
Oh for sure Midnight is a highly competent Chessmaster very manipulative. He has been able to successfully kill over 30 vampires due to his intelligence and in the story, he is shown carefully manipulating and studying Cassie to learn she is a vampire. Midnight is also very affable and genuinely sympathetic and does have his standards. As a result of this, he objected to Derek's plan to bomb several cities and was able to carefully trick him into thinking he is still on his side while working against him.
There is one very important thing to bring up his sort of racism towards vampires as he believes they are all evil and hunts them. However, I don't think this is disqualifying for his MB status for two reasons. One Midnight isn't some Card-Carrying Villain who hates vampires for no reason he genuinely thinks they are a threat to humanity due to his own traumatic experiences with them, and as a result, this is portrayed as something sympathetic. The second is that Midnight ends up seeing that not all vampires are evil and turns himself in and ends up working as a bounty hunter. As another bonus, it is still Fantastic Racism that while it does draw some parallels to real life is mostly disconnected.
Is he a Bastard?
Well at the end of the day Midnight is still an assassin who killed over 30 vampires most or all of which were innocent. However, I would not say he is too much of a bastard he does this out of a genuine belief they are a threat to humanity and he is a sympathetic character who only thinks that due to his own awful experiences.
Overall?
Easy keeper.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on May 11th 2022 at 8:38:34 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Midnight.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Oleg, Goblin, and Midnight
Easy to Midnight. I'd have proposed him myself if you didn't.
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Oleg the Goblin and Midnight
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Midnight.
Yes to Goblin and the Midnight. Good work both!
Yes to Midnight and Goblin.
Also, has anyone ever seen the movie, No Name on the Bullet? I was just thinking it's antagonist might apply (although I haven't seen the movie in over two years and don't know if or when I will again).
By the way with the approval of Hazel, Destinies of Remnant now has 7 MB's, should we give it its own page or is it not enough for a fanfic?
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes