During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Melmond and Elektra.
Yes to Nidhogg.
Ravok, when you said see for yourself on Liz Bane, did you mean you were gonna watch the episode and report back? Her votes have stalled out so a fresh opinion would help settle the issue.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Apr 7th 2022 at 8:08:10 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Bane, Beni, Melmord, Elektra and Nidhogger.
Melmord, Elektra and Nidhogg
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Beni
Caesar
Yep to Nidhoggr!
@Lore: Sorry bro, never seen the show, when I said I'd need to see it myself I just meant that if I wanted to be able to give a solid opinion, I'd probably need to watch the show and her episode. I hope to one day watch the series, but it won't be the immediate future, so no one should hedge bets on me chiming in anytime soon.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The votes are currently 7-2 yes-no so I guess she's a technical keeper right now. I got one more so I'll see if anything changes until then.
I did have another I was going to do but decided he was bit too unhinged. It's too bad because he was an interesting antagonist, a musician that promoted sobriety from drugs and alcohol whose master plans was to make everyone in the world clean like him since he considered it a horrible fate to not be able to do them anymore.
Starts out promising like this.
But ends up like this.
Humorous, brutal, and interesting, but not quite magnificent in the end.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Apr 7th 2022 at 9:40:57 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Woagh
Just beat Lego Star Wars The Skywalker Saga, holy shit that was good. PM me for details anyone's interested.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
I personally thought Liz Bane would've been proposed for Complete Monster before Magnificent Bastard. She's easily in the top 5 most heinous villains in the show's history (up there with Alfred, the Metal Masked Assassin, and that creepy fashion designer) and has a nasty history of mass suicide cults (even in the episode prior). I guess she's probably getting voted up though (she's definitely competent enough). The whole show can legally be streamed on Adult Swim's website.
Also I think Mr. Salacia could qualify as either a Magnificent Bastard, Complete Monster, or both depending on how the movie depicts him (Galaktikon 2 seems to hint more towards the former but that's only vaguely canon). Better keep an eye on it.
Edited by Idisagree on Apr 7th 2022 at 11:07:44 AM
I'm definitely gonna wait for the movie before making a final call on Salacia as we currently know very little about his true overall goals, but I could still see him qualifying for either or both.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Has Adil Hoxha from the Simpsons episode The Crepes of Wrath been discussed for this trope? I think he can count because he ticks all the personality boxes (charm, moral questionability, scheming and manipulation), but he gets caught easily and anticlimactically.
However, it is worth noting that he is just a 10 year old kid, and his only major appearance is the B-plot of a 22 minute episode, which means that the writers wouldn't have time for a detailed story anyways.
Eh, I'll go for it.
The Work
The Simpsons (Specifically the Episode, "The Crepes of Wrath")
The Candidate
Adil Hoxha
The events of the episode are kicked off when Bart blows up a toilet in his school with a cherry bomb. In response, Skinner, Marge, and Homer agree to send him to France as part of a foreign exchange program. They also take in an Albanian kid named Adil Hoxha, who quickly wins over the Simpsons and schoolmates with his polite attitude. He even helps Marge with the dishes and requests to see Homer's place of work, much to the latter's happiness.
At the nuclear power plant, Adil seems very enthusiastic to learn about Homers place of work, taking lots of pictures much to Homer's delight. However, it turns out that Adil is actually a spy who is after nuclear secrets, and sends the images to the Albanian government.
However, the FBI discovers Adil's actions has they have him sent back to Albania. As he leaves, he thanks the Simpson family for their hospitality, telling them that he hopes this experience wont sour their thoughts on the student exchange program. The Simpsons happily say goodbye to him as he boards the plane.
Okay... this felt rather short... disappointingly so. Oh well
Magnificence
Adil is a friendly, charming, and helpful little boy, who wins over the Simpsons. Even after getting caught, he genuinely thanks the family for their hospitality. He may be a spy, but his affability is genuine
Bastardry
His goal is to leak nuclear secrets to the Albanian Government, and he exploits the Simpsons kindness to do this.
Mitigating Issues
If this EP seems rather short, keep in mind that Adil's plot is only the B-plot of a 22 minute episode, limiting the time available for the writers. He gets caught at the end, but at this point, he has already sent the pictures to Albania (though not the factory blueprints)
Final Verdict
I'm honestly not that sure. The elements are there but I'm not sure if they are intertwined strongly enough
Sure to Adil (like you said, he makes the use of his limited screen time and is really cunning for his age) and Nidhoggr.
Yee to Adil for now (might check the episode later) and Nidhoggr.
I forgot to mention I've also seen Sonic The Hedgehog 2 - or did I already say I'd seen it? I can't remember. But anyway, PM for deets if you fancy.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Apr 8th 2022 at 10:02:46 AM
Nidhogg and Adil.
Goku Black
Adil.
Nidhogg & Adil
for Nidhoggr, and Adil.
Yes to Nidhoggr and Adil.
Imma need one more day on Tiny Tina's Wonderlands. I, uh, ended up putting off this game a long while and I still have to get through the final level. Dragon Lord looks kinda promising, at least - I'm just not sure if he's got enough feats of planning on his side, is all. In the meantime:
- Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft: Onyxia, the Broodmother of the black dragons, is once again portrayed as a devilishly theatrical schemer in the Book of Mercenaries storyline. Integrating herself into the Stormwind aristocracy disguised as a human, Onyxia works with her brother Kazakusan to claim the shards of the broken naaru Mi'da to gain absolute power, using her wealth and connections to have mercenaries collect the shards for her. Orchestrating Tamsin's attack on Stormwind, Onyxia uses the chaos to smuggle the shards to Kazakusan in Alterac Valley, completing their "dark naaru" and giving them all the power they could want. While ultimately cornered in her lair and abandoned by her brother, the determined Onyxia fights to the bitter end, and even a little after that.
The Warcraft page will need a minor formatting job to accommodate for her, so something like this should work:
Main Series
- Insert literally everything currently on the page
- Onyxia
Edited by DocSharp on Apr 8th 2022 at 10:58:18 AM
We're at 7 currently for Borderlands, so one from TTW would be the impetus for a page.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Woagh
to Adir and Niddhoggr.
Speaking of discussion dates, today's the day Kirby and the Forgotten Land is discussed.
The main villain, Fecto Forgo, is the obligatory Eldritch Abomination who's been pulling the strings so that he could become complete and fuck shit up, but we see little of his actual scheming and what we do see of him establishes him as a spiteful prick, so he's a no-go. Most of the Beast Pack don't really engage in any real cunning or smart moments, so they're out of the picture.
I say most of them because, as J pointed out when I discussed this game with them, Sillydillo of all people might be worth a look due to the lack of competition. Imma have to think on him though.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Apr 8th 2022 at 11:58:41 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
to Adir and Niddhoggr
Slight yes to Adil sounds somewhat underwhelming, especially compared to a badass like Hank Scorpio but objectively speaking, I guess he can count.
Is this new example tree for Narcos good that way (edited Carillo in as the first because he is both the first of these candidates to appear and to get his arc wrapped up)?
- Narcos:
- Colonel Horacio Carillo is a colombian police officer and the eventual leader of the task force to bring down Pablo Escobar. Having lost dozens of partners at the hands of the Narcos, he has become utterly ruthless in his pursuit of them, being not above executing or torturing prisoners who don’t talk. Cunning and brutally efficient, he avoids Escobars spies and soon deals him multiple heavy blows from arresting his bookkeeper, to leading a strike team that kills his partner Gacha, to brutally interrogating and killing his cousin and right-hand Gustavo when he refuses to sell Pablo out. Despite the government initially exiling him to Spain for being too brutal, he‘s soon brought back for being the only man Escobar ever feared. A Frontline General genuinely concerned for the lives of his men, he never wavers in his quest to bring him down, calling him a coward to his face even with his last breath.
- Jorge Salcedo is the Deputy Chief of Security for the Cali Cartel. Faithfully serving the cartel for several years, he often uses his quick thinking and cunning to get out of sticky situations. When his boss/friend and wife are brutally murdered by the cartel Jorge decides to turn informant to the DEA. He manages several times to get them one of the godfather's locations, always using his wits to overcome unforeseen circumstances, even framing his friend as the rat, an act which causes him tremendous guilt. Eventually the godfather is captured and he then uses his skills to find the main accountant for the cartel who brings it down for good.
- Amado Carillo Fuentes becomes a part of the Guadalajara Cartel as a pilot for his uncle Don Neto and kingpin Miguel Angel Felix Gallardo. Amado is later promoted by Felix to restore order to the Juarez branch, before building a fleet of planes to transport cocaine from Colombia into the U.S. and effortlessly luring a DEA team targeting him into a deadly trap. Orchestrating Felix's downfall and imprisonment, Amado also assassinates his partner Aguilar to take over the Juarez Cartel. Amado decentralizes the organization to make it harder for law enforcement to target him and makes new deals with Mexico's corrupt kingmakers and the Colombian Cali godfathers to make himself the most powerful of all drug kingpins, even bribing the General leading the Mexican government's anti-cartel operations to wipe out his competitors. Saving his Cuban mistress from assassination, Amado moves his assets overseas before unexpectedly dying during a botched surgery to change his identity, with the suggestion that the "Lord of the Skies" might have actually faked his death.
- Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman is at first a personal driver for Felix-Gallardo in the Guadalajara Cartel. El Chapo undermines the Tijuana plaza by building a tunnel underneath the US-Mexico border on their territory to smuggle in cocaine, resulting in a Mob War before making peace with them in the wake of Felix's removal. When Tijuana continues to provoke the Sinaloans, El Chapo masterminds an assassination attempt on Benjamin Arellano-Felix, killing his brother-in-law in the process. El Chapo later escapes an attempt on his own life despite being outmanned and outgunned. When El Chapo is captured and sent to prison, he outmaneuvers both his more charismatic rival Hector Palma and his ostensible mentor Don Neto, having both men moved to different prisons so he can assume sole control over the Sinaloa Cartel and rebuild it into the deadliest of the narco-cartels.
Edited by Hardcorebatmanfan on Apr 8th 2022 at 12:52:29 PM
