During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I stated this once before. Tabletop games are almost invariably Fantasy or Sci-Fi with deep lore behind them. I find those settings are generally prime territory for MBs especially if they've gone on for a couple of years. As such I expect almost all the tabletop games to have more than 7 MBs. Ideally you'd want to find a tabletop game which didn't last very long.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 28th 2022 at 11:08:52 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Professor Gigachad
I don't know how much help I could be with that as I don't really know how to even get started looking into Tabletop characters.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Just researching on pages and such would be helpful
A big issue with a lot of this tabletop stuff, especially older material, is that it's not cheap. A lot of D&D stuff that I've done candidates on here and on CM was from 2nd edition and physical copies of that old stuff if very expensive.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
There's plenty of stuff that's cheap/free online.
Look, we can just comb tropes pages and find people who look promising. It's how I've found folks before.
Credit to Wizards on the Magic the Gathering stuff. At least all their stories are free on their website.
Things like this are also where wikis are a god send to conglomerate information.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 28th 2022 at 8:21:12 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
MB's on Tabletop Games, Web Original and Other Media. Excludes works with their own pages
- Tabletop Games
- Warhammer: 16
- Old World of Darkness: 10
- Pathfinder: 8
- Other: 12
- Web Original
- Lets Play: 4
- Podcasts: 13
- Web Animation: 15
- Web Comics: 15
- Web Video: 11
- Other: 7
- Other Media
- Asian Animation: 2
- Myth/Religion: 6
- Roleplay: 1
- Scripts/Screenplays: 3
- Toys: 6
Edited by magnumtropus on Apr 19th 2022 at 8:50:22 AM
Sigh...but Magic getting a page and Pathfinder is just a matter of time.
The Moron
Okay, now playing devil's advocate here... does it make any sense to give the games that need a page their page and just fold the remainder back into Other Media until the section gets big enough for a page again??
I'd be fine with that, whatever the thread decides.
The Moron
Cause once Magic inevitably gets its seventh, that brings the number of non-page keepers to six, and at that point it might be easier to just shove them in a folder on Other Media anyway.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 28th 2022 at 11:33:21 AM
Works for me, just put it there until it gets more.
I'll start shopping on the side for enough to beef the page up, but like...help?
I'll look into it too... let's not leave him alone here guys.
The Moron
I'll do some looking around myself once I'm finished with some long overdue collabs on the other thread, but you guys in particular have come to know my tastes fairly well - if you find anything you think might interest me, feel free to shoot it my way
I made this post which might serve as a useful reference for MB counts.
Edited by magnumtropus on Feb 28th 2022 at 4:39:36 PM
I'm not even saying to spend money here. Just check the Tabletop tropes stuff, character pages and LMK who looks promising.
Not gonna lie, I kinda like the idea of just merging the page with Other Media. That just seems like it would be the least stressful option and we won't be obligated to fish for candidates.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 28th 2022 at 8:51:19 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to moving Tabletop Games to Other Media, since the main changes will be:
- moving the "Other" folder in that page to Other Media and renaming it
- the three games with their own sections get new pages.
Edited by magnumtropus on Feb 28th 2022 at 5:21:55 PM
I also don't want Lighy to feel stressed out and seem obligated to fill up the page. I'm sure he already has a day job.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Caesar
I'm looking into buffing the page out too alongside Lighty, give me some time and I'm absolutely sure we can throw up enough examples to maintain the page staying where it is, instead of merging the page back into Other Media....then needing to bring the page back when we get enough examples to justify a page anyway.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Professor Gigachad
Honestly I would prefer to just wait as well, I am mostly worried about how we will handle this for World of Darkness if the Vampire game gets 7 examples.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Here's the next of the Kamen Rider candidates I've been meaning to propose.
What is the work?
Kamen Rider Zero-One Others: MetsubouJinrai, a Direct-to-DVD followup to Kamen Rider Zero-One serving as effectively the first of a two-part finale to the show on account of its troubled production leaving it with No Ending. It focuses on the Kamen Riders of Metsuboujinrai.net, the ex-villains turned anti-heroes of the series.
Who is the villain?
Lyon Arkland/Kamen Rider Zaia, the charming and charismatic CEO of multinational MegaCorp ZAIA Enterprise. Lyon is looking to have his company break into a new market by producing soldier variants of Humagears nicknamed "Solds". Because of this, Metsuboujinrai.net, who are Humagears themselves and don't take kindly to Humagears being used as tools, naturally spring into action to stop him. Unfortunately for them, that's All According To Lyon's plan to market his Solds under the banner of For Great Justice.
What does he do?
Not long after Lyon begins production of the Solds, he's approached by Azu, a program left behind by Zero-One's original Big Bad the Ark to create more Arks. Azu offers him a Driver in an attempt to corrupt him into another Ark, but Lyon opts to take the Driver and use it for his own plans involving Metsuboujinrai.net.
To lure Metsuboujinrai.net out, Lyon ambushes two of their members (Jin and Horobi) with the help of two of his Solds and kidnaps Jin in order to draw the rest of Metsuboujinrai.net out. While keeping him in captivity, Lyon hooks Jin up to the Mass Brain (the digital Mind Hive that regulates the Solds) and equips him with the Driver Azu gave to him, having modified it for his plans. After freeing Jin they discover Lyon's plans involving the Solds and try to stop them, only to met by Lyon and an army of Solds. After Lyon and his army beat them back, they try connecting to the Mass Brain and use it to combine together into a new Rider form, Kamen Rider Metsuboujinrai. This is exactly what Lyon planned however, as he intends to use Metsuboujinrai.net as a new threat for his Solds to fight. Lyon fights the new Fusion Dance Rider to get a taste of its power and is defeated, not that he cares, as he deems the new Rider a perfect threat for his Solds to fight, as Metsuboujinrai immediately detransforms.
Azu then steps in to complain about about what Lyon used the Driver she gave him for. Lyon responds by giving a speech about why the For Great Justice mantra his company promotes will always trump the malice Azu seeks to spread, and dresses down Azu for her Stupid Evil beliefs before having his Solds shoot and kill her. He then departs with his Solds, leaving the Metsuboujinrai.net members alive so they can carry on being an ideal threat.
Yua Yaiba, the captain of AIMS (Artificial Intelligence Military Squad), delivers a press conference addressing the attacks and tries to urge the press not to jump to any assumptions about Metsuboujinrai.net, herself holding sympathetic views towards them. However, her speech to the press is interrupted when Lyon barges in to give his own address. In it, he's able to sway public opinion to his side by painting himself as the victim of the attack, all while convincing everyone Metsuboujinrai.net are the villains and discrediting AIMS in the process.
Metsuboujinrai.net would later transform into Kamen Rider Metsuboujinrai again to make another attempt to liberate the Solds from Lyon. Lyon and his Solds show up to confront Metsuboujinrai again, only for Metsuboujinrai to develop an unexpected ability - the power to free the other Solds from the Mass Brain. With the Solds disconnected and confused, Lyon is forced to become Kamen Rider Zaia and face Metsuboujinrai on his own. While he puts up a valiant fight given the situation, he's ultimately fatally wounded by the Rider, letting out a triumphant "ZAIA forever" as his final words before falling over dead. However, as a side effect of using the Mass Brain key again, the Metsuboujinrai.net members are all stuck in their transformation, their data smashed to together to create an unholy Mechanical Abomination (which is exactly what Lyon planned).
So despite being dead, Lyon's actions extend over into the second part Kamen Rider Zero-One 01̶hers: Vulcan & Valkyrie. Kamen Rider Metsuboujinrai goes on a rampage and as Isamu (Vulcan) and Yua (Valkyrie) are the only currently available Riders (Zero-One is off on a space shuttle), they're the ones who have to deal with Metsuboujinrai. The two gain new forms from two of Lyon's Solds, 9 and 20, and with their new forms they're able to destroy Metsuboujinrai (Well, Isamu is. Yua's fight with it lasts for a minute before she's beaten and humiliated). It's a costly victory however, as Metsuboujinrai's death also permanently erases the data of the four Humagears used to create it, and Isamu is left critically injured and possibly dead. So Lyon effectively managed to get the last laugh from beyond the grave and pull off quite a spectacular Posthumous Villain Victory.
Is he magnificent?
Definitely. Lyon is impeccably charisma and thorough pragmatic with how he goes about things. He isn't sadistic, petty or spiteful at all and even though he's a villain he comes across as a guy you could probably have a beer with. In every scene he'sin , Lyon has control of the situation, never once letting anything shake his jovial demeanor. While he can fight, his victories in the film are mainly due to him outsmarting the cast at every turn and manipulating them into doing what he wants. The only reason he dies is because Metsuboujinrai had a few powers he couldn't account for and even then he manages to pull off a win from beyond the grave, achieving his goal by way of his Solds enabling Vulcan to destroy Metsuboujinrai and dragging at least half of the Zero-One Riders with him to the grave in the process.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Lyon is a businessman looking to make money through questionable means, but as mentioned above he's pragmatic in how he goes about his goals and generally avoids unnecessary collateral damage. He'll sacrifice four (morally dubious) Ridiculously Human Robots to promote his Solds, but he'll also get things done through negotiation and strategy if that's a readily available option. And to some degree, Lyon seems to genuinely believe his Solds are the best way to enforce justice on the world. In short, Lyon doesn't do anything out of bounds from what's needed to achieve his goals, that being a world where peace is kept by his Solds.
Also, this might be going into YMMV territory but there isn't a whole about Lyon's plans squarely involving the Solds that's shown to be objectionable. The Solds aren't sentient and are connected to an electronic Mind Hive that determines their actions, so Lyon isn't enslaving sapient beings. It's only after they're disconnected that any of them even begin to develop their own individual personalities.
Final Verdict
I'd give a confident to Lyon. He's definitely the smartest of the Zero-One villains (although that isn't much of a contest).
Yes to Lyon.
Also I do like the idea of not having to cut then recreate later. Let's just leave it as is and not make stuff into subpages until we build it up more.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 28th 2022 at 12:44:54 PM
Yeah, guys, I'm more than happy to get some help on this! There's plenty of TTRPG stuff all over the place, just start helping me track some down and I'm good for it! Castle Faleknstein, 7th Sea, Deadlands, Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Starfinder, Cthulhutech, so on and so forth...