During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Okay, obviously I hadn't seen the posts on the forum. The easiest way is just to send a PM. Remember I'd done like 5-6 MB posts on Mass Effect in short order, so I was just taking a brief break.
I'll admit P Ms would have been the preferable communication, but I simply took your lack of response to the posts as being indifference to the matter. Assumptions again took over when you started doing other stuff and dived into the Vampire candidates.
I hope there are no hard feelings and you don't think I'm trying to steal candidates from you.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Understood, no hard feelings. Just remember a very fast moving forum isn't the best means of communication. If you want to leave it up, I'll post mine soon enough now.
Just in the future, please shoot me a PM.
I'll leave it up for posterity's sake as I don't like deleting effort posts.
Wasn't trying to rush, but I felt like the page needed moving again after a week of inactivity on the Mass Effect stuff. When 43110 talked about keeping the draft page up, it made me want to get everything done in time for next swap.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jul 3rd 2021 at 3:21:18 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Cheers for solving that gentlemen and just for the record, I’m totally fine with periodically adding things and I prefer pages be locked fairly quickly. In my experience the longer they’re left unlocked other trope will (with the best intentions) start editing things without understand the special process this trope gets.
I'll admit it's also a bit a bummer. Incorrect assumptions and errors in communication aside, I don't want the effort post to completely go to waste. I spent a couple of hours working on it and I could have done one for Legion or EDI had I known for certain Lighty still intended doing Miranda. Can I at least ask people read both if that helps the decision making process.?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
More info never hurts. I don’t see the harm if Lighty’s cool with that.
All things considered, if that's the case, I'd just as soon leave it up and I'll go from there.
Woagh
Gonna leave Jano's writeup here:
- Rayman 2: The Great Escape: Jano is the first nightmare of Polokus, the creator of the Antitoons, and the guardian of the Elixir of Life. An affable creature, he challenges Rayman to overcome the Cave of Bad Dreams to claim the Elixir, subjecting Rayman to platforming challenges, eventually joining himself to fight him. Upon losing, Jano offers Rayman a choice between gold or the Elixir, taking his defeat in stride. If Rayman chooses the Elixir, he reveals that he simply hypnotized Rayman into a dreamlike trance, the whole challenge being a Secret Test of Character, and allows Rayman to leave with his prize.
Btw, I'm not kidding when I say that Rayman has little in the way with candidates. Mr. Dark was one I was considering, as he does surprisingly well for an Excuse Plot villain, but he doesn't have much in the way of personality other than looking cool. The others are either too cranky and evil (Razorbeard And Andre) or too prone to slapstick (The Magician And the Rabbids).
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Dr. Nefario and Herb Overkill.
Gonna be revisiting Saints Row soon. There's one more possible candidate I'm thinking of looking at once I catch back up.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
RIP Toriyama
Alrighty, last Despicable Me candidates for now, a duo!
Who are Walter and Madge Nelson? What makes them candidates?
A perpetually cheerful married couple with 1950s aesthetic and oozing with contagious cheer, Walter and Madge Nelson appear in Minions on a road trip with their 3 kids, where they pick up the hitchhiking Minions Kevin, Stuart and Bob.
Offering apple slices and banter with the Minions, the Nelsons suddenly stop their car with Walter noting they're getting out to "stretch their legs" while donning ski masks. Cue 10 seconds later as the Minions realize the entire Nelson family are master robbers lead by the parents, and they rip off a bank before speeding away, cops in pursuit.
As Walter reassures their daughter that her tripping the bank alarm was a simple mistake that every one makes now and then, he begins alternating paint guns with Madge to pelt the windshields of pursuing cops with splatter and throw them off course, keeping up the cheerful talking with each other and the Minions the whole way.
When the Minions accidentally fire the Nelson's bazooka and crash the pursuing cops, the Nelson parents gleefully show pride in the Minions and deduce that they're budding henchmen on the way to Villain Con, just where the Nelsons are going. Walter snarks he "Hopes you guys aren't a rival gang!" before brushing it off as a joke and throwing a live grenade their infant Binky is playing with out the window.
Dropping Minions off at Villain Con, the Nelsons are later seen at Scarlet Overkill's coronation ceremony, where she proclaims the Minions enemies who need to be caught and executed. In contrast to the rest of the villains present who side with Scarlet, Walter and Madge urge the Minions to flee Scarlet and escape.
Finally, in a short tie-in movie, we see the Nelsons once more leading their family in robbing a prestigious museum of its treasures. When Binky loses his pacifier, the Nelson parents are genuinely sad, but urge their kid to buck up and accept the loss....only for Binky to use the skills his parents have imparted to him to sneak into the museum the next night and successfully retrieve his pacifier through waves upon waves of security, Walter and Madge later casually noting that they're definitely in the "top ten parents of all time!"
Are they magnificent?
Considering they're onscreen less than like 10 minutes? The Nelsons are some of the most memorable characters in the whole franchise, being an overly cheerful, immensely polite and friendly couple who just happen to also be...uh, master criminals raising their kids to be the same. They rip off a bank with ease at the start, evade cops with non-lethal methods like paint guns, genuinely befriend the Minions, and are established to have a pattern of pulling off great thievery as a family unit with glee and support as if it was a family outing to a sports game. Binky further showcases all he's been taught by the Nelson, and the couple is even given the notable, split second scene of urging the Minions to run for their lives while all the rest of the villains have allied with Scarlet out of fear or greed.
Are they bastards?
Bank robbing, museum thieving, cop crashing, self-proclaimed villains who cheer the Minions' own evil on and raise their kids to be equally evil.
Final Verdict?
Yes! Finally got one of my own for my boy Michael Keaton
Edited by Ravok on Jul 3rd 2021 at 6:30:49 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
Nelsons
Yeah to Walter & Madge.
to the Nelsons
Gotta love Jaws!
to Walter and Madge Nelson.
I just realised literally all of the films have an MB. Damn, son.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
The Moron
Oh an absolute yes to the Nelsons
Also, how about a potential quote?
the Nelsons.
Yes to Jano, Nefarious, Herb, and the Nelsons. Good to hear Michael Keaton finally got one.
Speaking of actors/voice actors who only recently got an MB, does Cat Noir/Adrien Agreste from Miraculous Ladybug count as an MB, or is he too heroic? He's basically a male teenage Catwoman from my knowledge, so I was just wondering. That would give Bryce Papenbrook 2 counting Nagito. I'm sure he also voiced someone in SAO that counts, despite my distaste for that show.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Edit: Well has Henry from Fire Emblem Awakening been discussed? Awakening is one of the few FE games I have yet to play (much of anyway), but I could imagine someone making a case for him.
Edited by Klavice on Jul 3rd 2021 at 8:02:32 AM
To the Nelsons
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I know nothing about Miraculous Ladybug, but I can still tell he’s too heroic.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jul 3rd 2021 at 10:46:28 AM
Lies and Violence!
the Nelsons.
Power Rangers Turbo is one of the many seasons of Power Rangers. Feel like I don't have to explain too much of the premise: five teenagers dress up in spandex to fight monsters, usually joined by a Sixth Ranger.
This season: the theme is cars, one of the teenagers is a kid, the sixth ranger is the "Phantom Ranger," and the monsters are space pirates led by an idiot named Divatox.
The candidate
General Havoc is the brother of Divatox, popping up in a brief arc to help his sister. He brings with him a cool space base and a zord called the Metallasaurus, which he uses to go confront the Rangers. It goes pretty well; Havoc manages to short-circuit their own Megazord, have his minions break in and eject the Rangers, before rocketing away with it. Not a bad start.
Reverse-engineering the Megazord, Havoc begins upgrading the Metallasaurus, and learns that the Phantom Ranger is powered by a "Power Ruby." He proceeds to go on another rampage... unfortunately for him, the Phantom Ranger has provided the other Rangers with new zords, and they destroy Metallasaurus.
In his last major appearance, Havoc kidnaps the Phantom Ranger's sort-of love interest, the Pink Ranger / Cassie, and threatens to turn her to stone unless the Phantom Ranger is brought to him. The Rangers arrive and fight off his minions, but not before Cassie is turned to stone. The Phantom Ranger arrives, and uses the Ruby to revive her... only for "Cassie" to reveal herself to be Havoc, who captures him and teleports away.
Because the other villains are idiots, however, the real Cassie escapes. Divatox tells her brother to capture her with the Metallasaurus II, Havoc bringing along the Phantom Ranger as a hostage. ...The Rangers of course immediately free him, but it was still a good strategy!
Anyways, Metallasaurus II is destroyed and Havoc leaves. When he next shows up, he's a minor minion in Dark Specter's army, and destroyed by Zordon's purification wave.
Magnificence
Havoc's a fun villain, and a standout in an otherwise shit season. He's always prim, proper and polite, and easily the smartest villain that the idiotic space pirates have on their side.
He's a tiny bit smug, but that's just the usual Saturday morning cartoon villain "No one can stop us now!" and "This isn't possible!" stuff you'd expect from Power Rangers. I don't think it hurts him too much, and he never has an extended Villainous Breakdown - outbursts of disbelief and seething frustration, sure, but he's still fucking Xanatos compared to his Psychopathic Womanchild sister.
And, of course, by the time he leaves he's given her the greatest wins she'd have until the finale: she has a new space base, a giant space laser (not sure if that's ever used again), the Phantom Ranger's Power Ruby, and the Rangers' old Megazord. Dude's awesome.
Bastard
Threatens to turn someone to stone, rampages around a city, etc.
Thoughts?
Yeah to Havoc.
to Havoc
I've asked on a few of my previous posts and even stated on several others of my belief that you had moved on to other material and my intent on doing Miranda if you didn't want to.
It was my mistake trying to talk it out over the forum where such things could get easily buried. I should have P Med you to make sure there weren't any errors in communication, but I assure you I had no intent in trying to steal the candidate from you. As again, at least 3 or 4 posts had me saying this.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jul 3rd 2021 at 2:57:28 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.