During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Hmm, I'm not sure about Doc Ock. I not really sold that he passes typical cartoon villain territory. Then again, it's been a while since I last saw a walkthrough of the game.
But I do have a Marvel villain who might count. Spanning three shows and five creative teams, may I present to you one the 90's animated incarnation of one of Marvel's most famous baddies.
This is going to be another long one...
Who Is He and What Does He Do?
Victor Von Doom is the ruler of Latveria and a master of both magic and science. Born into a Romani tribe, Victor was the son of the mystic healer Werner. The local Baron ruled the land with iron fist and his men killed Doom's mother when he was young. Werner was called upon to heal the Baron's daughter when she ill, but he was unable to cure her. Victor and his father were forced to flee to avoid being executed, but Werner eventually succumbed to the elements and died. Victor studied his father's books on the arcane arts and used his new knowledge to strike back against the Baron's forces. His intellect was able to earn him a scholarship to Empire State University, where he would meet Reed Richards.
Reed became Victor's intellectual rival and grew concerned over the safetyof their experiments. While performing a dangerous experiment on his own, Victor was caught in a horrific explosion that scarred his face. He left the university in disgrace and wandered the mountains of Tibet, where he was found by a secret sect of monks. They helped him forge a metal mask to cover his scars, and Doom declared that the entire world must pay for the injustices done to him.
In "The Mask of Doom" three-parter, Doom sent his robots to infiltrate the Baxter Building and kidnap Sue of the Fantastic Four. Holding her hostage, Doom forced the rest of the team to surrender themselves in exchange for her safety. He transported the Fantastic Four to his castle and trapped them within cells designed to counter each of the four's powers (except for Sue, who just got lasers). Doom invited Sue to dinner and recounted his past, allowing the others to break free while he was distracted. Doom had anticipated this and meet up with the rest of the team to explain why he brought them here.
Doom was looking for the Coffin of Argos and had built a time machine to bring the powerful alien generator locked inside back from Ancient Greece. He ordered Reed and the others to retrieve the coffin and placed Sue in a room that would eventually crush her to gain their cooperation. While the rest of the Fantastic Four where in Greece, Sue used her force fields to break out of her imprisonment. At least until Doom sent one of his robots to capture her again, because Sue couldn't do anything in the first season of the show. Doom brought the others back to the present to deliver the coffin. Unbeknownst to him, Reed had lost the generator during a storm and filled the coffin with Greek fire in its place. Doom was set ablaze and fled to recoup his losses.
In "The Silver Surfer and the Return of Galactus", Doom hatched a plan to steal the Power Cosmic from the Surfer for himself. He created a replica of Galactus's ship and used synthetic life energy to turn inanimate objects to life. The Fantastic Four believed Galactus had returned to Earth and traveled to the station with the Silver Surfer to investigate. Once Doom drained the Power Cosmic from the Surfer, he curb-stomped the Fantastic Four and rigged his space station to blow up while he headed back to Earth. He demonstrated his new power by destroying a military fleet and ordered the governments of the world to surrender to his might. Reed came up with a plan to strip Doom of his powers by luring him into space after stealing his crown. Galactus detected the Power Cosmic coming from Doom, which prompted his return to Earth. He had earlier exiled the Surfer to Earth and once he learned that someone tried to claim his power for their own, he was outraged. Galactus returned the Silver Surfer's powers, leaving Doom powerless and drifting off in the vacuum of space.
Doom would somehow return in the season two opener, "And a Blind Man Shall Lead Them". Starting the episode off by kidnapping Sue again (which he even apologized for being cliche at this point), Doom lured the Fantastic Four to a desert island which he had set up to be nuked. Sue saved the team from the explosion, but the nuclear fallout robbed the Fantastic Four of their powers. Learning about the team's survival, Doom traveled to New York and hijacked the Baxter Building while Reed was out testing new suits to replace their lost powers. Doom used Reed's own technology to hunt down the Fantastic Four and was pleasantly surprised to learn they were now powerless. With the help of Daredevil, the Fantastic Four sneaked back into their building to confront their archfoe. It went poorly, as Doom froze the heroes and locked them inside an airtight room to suffocate to death. Luckily, a device that could restore the Fantastic Four's powers was inside and Ben transformed back into the Thing to confront Doom. Doom was forced to retreat, but rigged the reactors in Reed's lab to annihilate all of Manhattan as he fled. His only regret was that he never got to see Cats. Sue was able to contain the explosion, but the team lost the Baxter Building in the process.
In the episode "Nightmare in Green", one of Doom's spycams recorded a fight between the Thing and the Hulk. Doom tracked the Hulk down after the fight and learned that he was the violent alter-ego of gamma physicist Doctor Banner. He kidnapped Banner and planned to use him to destroy the Fantastic Four. After triggering his transformation into the Hulk, Doom tricked him into thinking his only friend Rick Jones had abandoned him for the Fantastic Four. Doom convinced Hulk that the only way to renew their friendship was to destroy the team. As the Hulk fought the Thing, Doom kidnapped Rick to ensure he wouldn't be able to calm the Hulk down. During all of this, Reed had become ill trying to find a cure for Ben's condition. Doom's spycam revealed that Reed was alone and vulnerable, and Doom decided to seize the opportunity to rid himself of his arch-nemesis. However, Doom had accidentally hit a button before he left that freed Rick from his restraints, allowing him to follow him. Doom intended to finish Reed off with his Gamma Gun, but Rick managed to knock him aside while he was distracted. Reed threw the Gamma Gun at Doom, and the resulting explosion knocked him out of the building. He would follow Reed and Rick downtown, where the Hulk had apparently beaten the Thing to death. Doom was about to finish the rest of the Fantastic Four off, but the Hulk was outraged when he realized he was tricked. Doom hijacked one of the Fantastic Four's vehicles, but the Hulk forced it to crash into the sea, allowing Doom to escape.
In the series finale, "Doomsday", Doom would once again attempt to steal the Silver Surfer's powers. As the Surfer flew over Latveria, he saved a woman who was being dragged away to Doom's castle by his robots. She invited him for tea at her grandfather's cabin, and he learned too late it was no mere cabin. It was all a trap set up by Doom to siphon out the Power Cosmic, giving him god-like abilities once again. Doom used his new powers against the Thing, wanting revenge for the beat-down he received earlier in the season. Having studied Galactus's movements after their last encounter, Doom knew he was far outside the solar system and wouldn't bother coming back to Earth. He petrified Ben, but kept him still aware of his surroundings as he went after his friends. He attacked Reed and Sue while they on a romantic getaway and easily overpowered the rest of the Fantastic Four. Rather than kill them, Doom decided to spare the Fantastic Four so they could watch on helplessly as he took over the planet.
Using his powers to wreak havoc across the globe and defeat both the Avengers and the X-Men, Doom offered the world's governments an ultimatum. Either surrender to his might in one week or face his wrath. Johnny went to confront Doom while Reed worked on a way to defeat him, but it didn't go so well for him. The rest of the Fantastic Four had to come to Johnny's aid, but they too were outmatched by the Power Cosmic. Before he could deliver the killing blow, Reed had bought the team enough time to use his special Anti-Cosmic aircraft to sap away a fraction of Doom's powers. It was nowhere near enough to weaken Doom, and he followed the aircraft into orbit to show Reed his folly. However, this was Reed's plan all along. He learned Galactus had put up a barrier around the Earth the last time he visited that prevented anyone with the Power Cosmic from leaving the planet's orbit. Doom smacked headfirst into the barrier, robbing him of his powers and returning them back to the Silver Surfer once again.
Doctor Doom would reappear to harass the Hulk on his own show during the episode "Doomed". While Bruce Banner was in Washington visiting his cousin Jennifer, Doom sent his robots to capture him so he could use the Hulk's powers to his own benefit. His robots pursued the two, and Jennifer was gravelly injured during the chase. Doom took Jen back to the Latverian embassy and rigged her hospital bed to explode should the Hulk try to harm him or break her free. While the Hulk tended to Jen, Doom placed Washington under a giant force field. This was punishment for the UN threatening to place him under arrest for war crimes against his neighboring states (or "friendly unification of resources" as he put it). He then would threaten to unleash the Hulk upon the capital if the government did not surrender to Latveria. The Hulk had transformed back into Banner at this point, so Doom implanted a chip that would allow him to control the Hulk. He then sent him on a rampage across the city. Unbeknownst to Doom, Bruce had given Jennifer an emergency blood transfusion to save her life using his own irradiated-blood. Jen had now become "She-Hulk" and tried to stop Doom's plan. Hulk fought off Doom's control and came to her aid to defeat Doom and shatter the force field around Washington.
In the season two episode "Hollywood Rocks", Doom was disposed from his rule over Latveria and sought to reclaim his former glory. He attacked a laboratory working on a device to repel asteroids and had his robots kidnap the scientists employed there. Bruce was also at the lab and Hulked-out during the attack, leading Doom to blow the building up to escape. Meanwhile, Doom had also set up a faux film crew to allow him access to a gamma generator near Hollywood. The crew pretended to offer She-Hulk a part in a TV pilot and tricked her into stealing the generator before luring her and the Hulk into a trap. Doom had the scientists placed under his control and revealed his evil plan. By repurposing Banner's device, he could now send asteroids hurtling towards any location he desired. Doom threatened the UN to restore his command over Latveria or he would devastate the world with his new weapon. Afterwards, he placed the Hulk inside a shuttle and launched him at an asteroid that was hurdling towards the Sun. She-Hulk was able to damage Doom's armor, freeing both her and the scientists under his control. While everyone went to work to bring the Hulk back to Earth, Doom destroyed the device and fled in the chaos.
Doom's final appearance would be in the three-part adaptation of Secret Wars over on Spider-Man's cartoon. By this point, Doom had reclaimed his throne as the rightful ruler of Latveria and easily foiled an assassination attempt against his life. A being known as the Beyonder selected him to take part in an experiment to determine which was stronger: good or evil. The Beyonder placed his subjects on a peaceful alien world and let the villains get a head start in conquering the planet. Doom fought both Doctor Octopus and the Red Skull for control over the planet, managing to conquer "Octavia" and adding it to his growing country of New Latveria.
When Spider-Man was leading a group of heroes to infiltrate New Latveria, they were suddenly under attack by Doom's robots. Ben was captured and brought to Doom's castle, who wanted to know what brought him to this planet. To gain Ben's trust, he used his new Elemental Splitter to turn him human again and gave him a device to transform back into the Thing at will. Doom invited the heroes into New Latveria, which was a safe haven from the conflict waging outside. Reed knew a paradise under Doom's rule would come at the expense of true freedom for its people, but Doom thought he was jealous. He placed the heroes under arrest for standing up against him, and Ben offered to tell him about the Beyonder in exchange for their freedom. Using the transporter within the heroes' hideout, Doom traveled to the Beyonder's coordinates and used his Elemental Splitter to steal his powers for his own.
Using his new godlike abilities, Doom transported the other villains back to Earth and offered the heroes the chance to live in New Latveria in exchange for their loyalty. They refused, and Spider-Man warned him about the great responsibility his new powers would bring. Doom grew tired of their conversation and teleported them far beyond his country's borders, keeping his promise to Ben to not harm them. Well, at least until he overheard their plans to fight back against him. Then he dropped a mountain on them. Doom was forced to rest after such a strain on his new powers, but he inadvertently summoned monsters from his subconscious as he slept. Spider-Man traveled to Doom's castle to stop him, but Doom refused to relinquish his powers even as he was unable to get rid of the monsters. Doom was about to destroy the heroes once and for all, but Ben used the Elemental Splitter while he was distracted to separate the Beyonder from his body. The Beyonder declared the test to be over and sent Doom and the heroes back to Earth with no memories of what had transpired on the planet.
Is He Charming, Charismatic, and Good on His Feet?
Doom is intelligent and always has an air of politeness to him, even when dealing with his foes. Doom has shown the ability to convince heroes to his side, such as when he tricked the Hulk into fighting the Fantastic Four or gaining Ben's loyalty by turning him human again. Doom does genuinely want to improve the world for the better, but he only wants it on his terms. If people don't accept his rule? Well, clearly they don't know that his rule is what's best for them. There are a few times where Doom can come across as smug or overconfident, but most of the time he's usually able to back up his claims.
There's been a few times where Doom has made a dumb decision or two. Bumping into his controls that accidentally set Rick Jones free, not monitoring Bruce while he was tending to Jennifer, etc. But in these situations, Doom usually has his attention focused elsewhere. He was overthrown and gained his country back offscreen, gave the Fantastic Four their first real defeat by destroying the Baxter Building, gained god-like abilities on three separate occasions, and always is able to return to Latveria to rule over his people without any outside interference. Doom's always able to seize an opportunity when he sees one.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much of Bastard?
Doom is a tyrant and is not afraid to endanger the lives of innocent people to get what he wants. He's twice threatened to use the Silver Surfer's powers to devastate the world, sicced the Hulk against Washington DC, uses mind control devices to force people to do what he wants, and made awful film puns in "Hollywood Rocks". Doom can be brutal when he has a grudge against someone, such as when he attempted to nuke New York after Reed reclaimed the Baxter Building or dropping a mountain on the heroes after promising Ben he'd spare them.
But again, Doom believes this is all for the greater good. In Spider-Man, it's clear that he wants New Latveria to be free from the violence and back-breaking labor that plagued the rest of the planet. He even has a respectful relationship with Ben, as he keeps him around and offers him back his humanity with no strings attached. This is especially notable after the grudge he held back in the Fantastic Four, where he never got over how Ben crushed his hands and nearly killed him. Doom is willing to forgive so long as one admits his superiority over him. Either that or it's just the result of different creative teams tackling the character. You make the call!
Competition?
Doom has been outsmarted a few times, but it's usually by people who can match his genius. There's a reason Doom's arch-enemy is Reed Richards, the smartest man in the Marvel universe. Reed is able to outsmart him by exploiting his pride, but most of time this also done by exploiting knowledge Doom does not have. Doom can't see every piece on the board, and that's where others can take their opportunity. Doom can't see the Fantastic Four losing the generator back in Ancient Greece, or Bruce giving a blood-transfusion to his cousin. And many times, the ones who dispose of Doom are beings beyond his power. Both times he stole the Silver Surfer's powers, it's only because of Galactus that Doom loses his powers. The first time, Doom had no idea Galactus was nearby and he took steps to avoid that same mistake the second time around. Even when he stole the Beyonder's powers, it was only because the Beyonder allowed him to and it was only a fraction of his full might.
But Doom is still able to dance circles around most of the competition. He's easily the most successful villain during the Secret Wars, managed to stop the Hulk from smashing him on sight twice, overpowered the Silver Surfer twice, and bounced back from each of his defeats to maintain his control over his country and its resources. He was moments away from destroying all of the heroes using only a fraction of the Beyoder's powers. If cosmic beings and some of the world's most intelligent scientists are your biggest competition, I think it's safe to say your pretty dang magnificent.
Verdict?
No matter what show, I think Doom is an easy pass. His depiction in Spider-Man is definitely the most magnificent portrayal across the three shows, but there's nothing that really disqualifies him in the other two. Sometimes the episodes were not written very well, but Doom still maintained his intellect and audacity throughout. He gets an ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
from me.
Hell yeah
Goku Black
Dooooommmm
Ock and Doom.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Son of a bitch, I spent like six minutes failing to think of a good Mahvel joke and you nail it!
Edited by DocSharp on Sep 20th 2018 at 2:07:02 AM
To DOOM!!
The Unknown Unknown
Doom, aka "Foot Dive" and "Finger Lasers."
Not surprised at anothe Doom. Yes there.
Goku Black
Honestly Ive noticed like with Cm, some comic badguys just translate well to MB so well. Ultron, joker, brainiac, red skull are iconic Cm's and it shows in there adaptions but doom, ras al ghul and lex luthor are iconic mb's and that shows in there adaptions as well.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Doctor Dank.
I have been binge watching Kenny Vs Spenny. Has anyone else seen the show? If so, do you think Kenny Hotz could count?
I will give a yes to Ock and Doom.
I thought I would do an effort post on the main villain of Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country. For a little set up, this is the last of the TOS Star Trek movies, released in 1991, it is the end of the Cold War, in space. The Klingon Empire has been over-mining the moon of Praxis for resources, till it explodes, spreading pollution and effecting the ozone of the Klingon home world, with only 50 years of oxygen left. The leader of the Klingon Empire, Chancellor Gorkon, wants to start peace talks with the Federation, so they can gain Federation aid to help their Empire survive. However there are elements within the Klingon Empire and the Federation (also the Romulans are involved somehow) that oppose peace and want to start a new war, with these elements believing they cannot trust the other side and are willing to work together to scuttle the peace talks and use war to settle this emergency and see which side comes out on top in a conflict. I am going to propose the main Klingon villain of this film:
Who is General Chang? What has he done?
General Chang is Gorkon's chief of staff and one of the conspirators who opposes peace with the Federation and would rather try to take the resources the Klingon Empire needs by force, rather then through diplomacy. Teaming up with rogue elements of the Federation (led by Admiral Cartwright) who also oppose peace, Chang accompanies Gorkon to a meeting on the Enterprise and puts on a good face, showing respect to Kirk, at first. The Klingons and the Enterprise Crew have diner and after drinking too much Romulan ale, both sides become snippy with each other, with Chang expressing some doubts about the peace process and taking offense when Kirk compares him to Hitler. The diner ends and the Klingons return to their ship. However Chang has secretly developed a Klingon bird of prey ship that can fire weapons while cloaked (unheard of till now) and fires twice at Gorkon's ship, taking out shields and gravity. This allows 2 Star Fleet assassins on board, who use space suits and gravity boots to move around and kill several members of the crew and gravely wound Gorkon. Chang blames Kirk for this attack and crew members loyal to Cartwright change the logs to say the Enterprise did fire on the ship.
Kirk and Bones beam over to the ship to try save Gorkon and the peace process, but Gorkon dies and Chang has them arrested. They are put on trial, where Chang prosecutes them, even producing a log entry from Kirk saying he can never trust Klingons, blaming them for the death of his son back in Star Trek 3. The judge finds them guilty, but in the interests of furthering peace, has them sentenced to life in prison in the prison colony of Rura Penthe. Though Chang was hoping to see them executed, he changes his plan. Chang has his agents in Rura Penthe help Kirk and Bones escape, so that the guards will execute them for the escape attempt. Kirk sees though this plot, but just as the over confident warden is about to kill them (and reveal who is behind this plot) the Enterprise beams Kirk and Bones off Rura Penthe.
Anyway though some detective work, the Enterprise crew discover the conspiracy and who is involved and the new location for the peace talks, planet Khitomer, where the conspirators plan to kill the President of the Federation. However Chang and his cloaked bird of prey are orbiting Khitomer, waiting for Kirk. The Enterprise cannot defeat Chang's ship, with its ability to cloak and fire, it is invisible to the Enterprise's sensors and can take pot shots at the Enterprise at its leisure . Chang also taunts Kirk over the comm system, saying its better this way, that both he and Kirk are warriors and this is how things were meant o be, no peace in their time. However the Excelsior, captained by Sulu arrives to help, giving Chang 2 targets. Kirk and Spock also devise a plan to equipment the Enterprise used to explore gaseous anomalies to create a photon torpedo that would track the plasma exhaust port of Chang's ship. Bones and Spock quickly rig the photon torpedo and Kirk fires it, revealing the location of Chang's ship, allowing the Enterprise and Excelsior to destroy it.
Is He Charming, Charismatic, A Chess Master and Good on His Feet?
I think so, he is played by Christopher Plumber, is a Cultured Warrior who constantly quotes Shakespeare and is very Charismatic.
His plan is pretty good and while its something he devised with others, like Admiral Cartwight, he enacted his part of the scheme well and was willing to adapt his plan to changing circumstances. He respects Kirk as a warrior and faces death with dignity, saying To be or not to be right before his command bridge blows up.
You can argue Chang was over confident by taunting Kirk over the comm system and made an error, but Chang almost killed Kirk 3 times, once at the trial, once at Rura Penthe and his souped up bird of prey almost destroyed the Enterprise, only luck and Kirk's cunning saved his life all those times. If the Enterprise did not have the equipment on board that would let them track the exhaust port of Chang's ship, Chang would have had them dead to rights.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much of Bastard?
He is a bastard, he wants to start a war with the Federation that could kill billions and was willing to assassinate his own leader to so.
However I do think he thinks his actions are in the best interests of the Klingon Empire. There was a tie in (not sure if its canon or not) game, where Chang's character is further explored and presents him as a patriotic Klignon conservative who thinks the Federation want to destroy Klingon culture and assimilate Klingons into the Federation. Chang is of course wrong there, but his motives are patriotic in nature. Also in this game he is somewhat blinded by his hatred of the Federation and manipulated by the monstrous Klingon warlord, Melkor, but eventually realized his error and did the right thing, killing Melkor and became a far more cool headed schemer in the process, leaning from his mistakes and even willing to work with members of the Federation to achieve his goal.
Competition?
Well Star 1 and 4 have no villains, Kruge from Star Trek 3 is a typical Klingon villain and the villains from Star Trek 5 are a mess, only Khan from Star Trek 2 is comparable to Chang, but Chang is far less hot blooded then Khan, at least by the time we see Chang in Star Trek 6, where he has learned the dangers of over zealousness from the events in the Klingon Academy game. Also Chang is the most proactive villain in the movie, he gets more screen time then Cartwright and the Romulan ambassador is a pretty nothing character, I think he stands out the most in this conspiracy.
In the TOS era, there a lot of interesting alien commanders, like the honorable Romualn Commander from the episode, the Balance of Terror, but I think Chang is one of the better schemers in the TOS era, with a lot of the alien commanders preferring direct action to schemes.
Final Verdict?
I say keep him.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 20th 2018 at 6:03:43 AM
After briefly explaining to my father what this trope is, who has seen the above film, he seemed to think he meets the criteria, so I’m a yes for now at least.
Edited by 43110 on Sep 20th 2018 at 12:28:14 PM
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Any concerns about Chang?
The only other TOS movie villain I think could count is Khan, but he is Revenge Before Reason incarnate, which may hurt his chances. There is also reboot Khan, but he wanted to commit genocide against anyone who was not genetically engineered, which likely means he does not count. Original Khan's motives were not as blood thirsty as his reboot counter part.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 20th 2018 at 6:11:45 AM
Oh, I got dibs on Khan!
Doom and Chang
Fair enough, I assume that would be original Khan eh? Reboot Khan is fine, but Wrath of Khan is still the best of those films.
Are there any other Star Trek movie villains who you think could count? Man, there are a lot of lackluster villains in those films.
Edit: Speaking of Khans, you know who could be a contender, but it take a lot of time to do a EP for him, Shere Khan from the Talespin cartoon. He is apparently listed as one in the Talespin YMMV page, but I do not think that entry was approved by the thread:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/TaleSpin
Edited by Overlord on Sep 20th 2018 at 6:29:03 AM
To Chang
to General Chang and DOOM!
Yes to General Chang and Doom.
Also, good job finding Tale Spin Shere Khan. He's one hell of a contender the way he's portrayed in that cartoon.
And other Star Trek villains... aside from Khan and Q, there's probably some series examples we haven't covered yet.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Goku Black
Chang
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure on the candidates that I missed.
Also, anybody experiencing the bugs when you cant see this thread in Followed Threads or the post numbers felt kind of stagnant despite other peeps posting some things?
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Sep 21st 2018 at 4:29:26 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
You know, with Doom, you'd just need to share this video and he'd be an instant keep:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi86yeXB9pI
I also approve of the Klingon.
Alright, time for some Spoderman discussion.
MASSIVE SPOILERS YALL
As of now, I don’t think anyone counts, but I’ll give some standouts a fair shake:
Doctor Otto Octavius starts out as Peter’s Benevolent Boss trying to perfect Limb Replacement before moving on to full on Transhumanism – prompting him to make his signature arms. Sadly, the neural interface affects his personality and mood, making him a supervillain because it’s DOCTOR OCTOPUS OMG THE TWIST but no, really, it’s quite sad. Seeking revenge on former partner Mayor Norman Osborne for being a dick, Octavius stages a Prison Break of both Ryker’s Island and the Raft, forms the Sinister Six by offering what they each want – curing Vulture’s cancer, turning Electro into pure energy etc and releases a terrible plague on the city to destroy everything Osborne loves, exposing him as corrupt to the world before finally killing him. At one point, Otto makes a clever plan to kill Spidey – he predicts he’d find Ock’s lair, so he made up a false plan to get Spidey to investigate what is actually a bomb while mocking him over skype. Predicting that would fail, Ock had Vulture ready to take Spidey and have Vulture and Electro fight him as a Dual Boss. Even Vulture claims “Octavius is my sort of man – back-ups for his back-ups!” Ultimately, though, Ock is too unstable Norman manages to get under his skin when Ock tries to force Osborn to confess to the world and rants to Spidey in the Final Boss fight that he has no weakness. Spoilers you win the fight by exploiting his weakness. Ultimately, I think Ock was intended as a Tragic Genius who lost all his best attributes through no real fault of his own, a man to be pitied in his madness. Still, pretty impressive how he hijacks the plot for Act 3.
Mr Li, otherwise known as Mr Negative, is the Disc-One Final Boss of Acts 1 and 2. A billionaire philanthropist, Li was given powers by an accidental experiment by Osborn… which resulted in Li accidentally killing his parents. Finally giving in to his “Inner Demon” born from this, after Fisk is taken down Li has his brainwashed minions steal Fisk’s weapons and what not to use in a war against Osborn, attacking his city and his assets. Eventually, Li acquires and attempts to release the plague Ock later succeeds in releasing. Ultimately, while he is more stable than Ock, he still has outbursts and I don’t think his plans really stack up when compared to what Ock does later.
Wilson Fisk is a ruthless and cool as ever. Even though Spidey beats him at the beginning of the game after 8 years, Fisk’s shadow remains, Spidey taking down his numerous operations. After shutting down his construction sites, Fisk coldly tells Spidey he has other cash revenues to pay his lawyers and it was a mere inconvenience… not that Fisk is gonna let that slide: “My memory is long and my reach is longer.” The only time he really loses his cool is when he is arrested and Fisk shouts “ONE MONTH! IN ONE MONTH YOU’LL WISH YOU HAD ME BACK!” And that was half because Spidey was swinging away. And Fisk was kind of right. His absence led to worse taking his place. Ultimately, Fisk doesn’t have enough wins, so I can’t really support him, but since this game is inevitably getting a sequel, I’m happy to put him on a wait and see. Maybe if we see more of the first eight years?
Felicia Hardy… The Black Cat has a minor but memorable role. Apparently having gone straight thanks to Spidey, she has, for some reason, gone back to crime. She sets up plushies throughout New York which Spidey recognises as tools she uses to scan prospective targets. He calls Captain Yuri Watanabe, his Commissioner Gordon, to pick them up. Spidey thinks Black Cat is playing a game with him considering how reckless she’s being, and she claims over audio that she is: She is aiming to steal 50 million in goods. If Spidey can stop her before that, she will go straight again. Except, when finally finding her lair, she isn’t there. Just all 50 million stolen goods… and an audio tape playfully mocking Spidey, promising they’d meet again. Spidey gets a call from Yuri. All those plushies? Turns out, when all put together, they disabled the police station’s security. Felicia walked in and got her confiscated gear back. Felicia stole 50 million dollars worth of loot just to distract Spidey and in preparation of something much bigger. I need to wait until the “Heist” DLC, where she is the primary subject, to make my final statement. For all I know, she might not be enough of a bitch in the end, but DAYUM. I’m keeping an eye on the next potential member of Polar Phantom’s Patented MB Wafus tm.
So, that’s everyone.
Except for Shocker. Who clearly counts. I don’t even need an EP for him, we can all agree.
Chang, he's another character who came to mind for me.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Chang
I'm cutting these examples from Evillious Chronicles for not providing context:
- Gallerian Marlon.
- Also, Prim Marlon. Maybe it's a family trait?
- Irina deserves special mention here, as not only is she pretty much the one manipulating nearly everything behind the events of Daughter of Evil, we could fill an entire article just listing each one of her schemes in the entire Chronicles.
- Ma, too. Fittingly, because part of her is Irina.
Also cutting this from Mysterious Girlfriend X until further notice: Akira's ex-crush, Hayakawa. To the point that she's openly taunting Urabe, faking being in an abusive relationship, and suckering Akira into faking a date with her — at the same time she's getting Urabe to show up to "accidentally" catch them so he'll take the fall for it. Turns out Urabe was one step ahead of her...
Cutting this from Katekyō Hitman Reborn! too:
- Byakuran definitely fits the bill. In every single one of the multiverses.
- With the reveal of who really masterminded the time travel plot, TYL!Tsuna gets props for putting the kids in significant danger just to motivate his younger self. His own younger self can't believe it was really him.
- Daemon Spade managed to successfully pull a Grand Theft Me on Mukuro. Lemme just repeat that: He pulled a Grand Theft Me on Mukuro.
Edited by MasterJoseph on Sep 21st 2018 at 3:42:23 AM
IPP Wick Check created.
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Big Octo
IPP Wick Check created.