During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Moron
Alright, I finally just saw Mr. Trick get dusted. I'll work on the EP tonight, and I'll hopefully have it up by tomorrow.
Goku Black
That's probably it for season 3 then. The other episodes are mostly faith and mayor ones right ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Moron
Yeah, after Trick is gone, it's just the Mayor and Faith, plus Vamp!Willow (too sadistic) and Tucker Wells (not holding my breath there)
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I mean season 3 gave us two more than I expected, Post in particular was a forgotten yet easy keeper
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 21st 2021 at 9:16:23 AM
Goku Black
May be season four will be more promising
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Btw what I'll probably do is pull the stuff on the page marked for STAR to fill out, leave it just on my pending list and run whatever's there this week. Did we wanna do the same with Whoniverse? I know they're midway but y'all have worked hard and I can forgive being excited and just wanting something up.
Aight, I've been binging some old Disney cartoons as of late, and I think I got somethin'.
What's the work?
DuckTales! Woo-oo!
DuckTales (1987) is a classic Disney toon that adapts the adventures of everybody's favourite greedy asshole, Scrooge McDuck, with episodes focusing on either his management of his various companies, his confrontations with Duckberg's resident ne'er-do-wells, or his adventures 'round the globe as he hunts for treasure. Tagging along are his nephews Huey, Dewey, and Louie, as well as his lovable/incompetent pilot Launchpad McQuack.
Now, most of the villains are generally of the Smug Snake type and are often humiliated and outsmarted. I've only seen a small amount of episodes so far (only the first 23 as of writing), but I've found a one-shot character worth discussing.
Who is Filler Brushbill?
Filler is a highly charismatic and persuasive salesman who appears in the the episode "Much Ado About Scrooge". God knows why they didn't just call it "Much Ascrooge About Nothing", but I digress. Introduced wandering into Duckberg, Scrooge immediately locks down his mansion in a desperate effort to keep Filler from goading him into buying piles upon piles of useless crap again. These defense measures do virtually nothing to stop Filler, who came prepared to fend off Scrooge's countermeasures, culminating in him flashing a signed baseball bat and getting Huey's attention, who removes the defenses and lets Filler inside. Filler easily persuades Scrooge into buying $444444.04 worth of junk, before happily going about his merry way.
Unbeknownst to Filler, one of the items he gave Scrooge was a note signed by world-famous playwright William Drakespeare, one that notes the existence of a play he was never proud of and never released, leaving the script hidden within his castle for his mother to find. Scrooge and his nephews go to find the lost play, only to accidentally let the note fly out of a window and end up in Filler's hands, who immediately senses the opportunity for profit and goes to hunt for the play himself.
Filler follows Scrooge to the island where Drakespeare's castle is, saving his life and those of his nephews, before coming to an agreement to split the profits of the play once they find it. Filler ends up vital in finding the play, as he uses his assortment of merchandise to deter the island's oddball denizens from stopping them. However, upon finding the script and watching a performance of it from the islanders - who, as it turns out, are descendants of Drakespeare's troupe - they discover that the show is complete crap and resolve to leave it hidden within the castle to protect Drakespeare's reputation. However, Filler was waiting for the right opportunity to strike, and swoops in and steals the script so he can keep all the money to himself.
Filler evades Scrooge and the actors for a while until he is cornered inside of a tower hanging over a cliff. Filler contemplates jumping into the sea to escape until Louie convinces him into giving up, pointing out that the play is so terrible that it will permanently taint Filler's reputation and nobody will buy anything him from him ever again. Filler admits that he's right, noting that his greed made him short-sighted, and he gives up the play to be locked away, with Scrooge intending to re-use the island as a tourist trap - with Filler selling the tickets, of course. When we last see Filler, he's happily chatting up Louie, complementing him on his persuasive ability - and hey, if Louie doesn't have what it takes to be a great salesman, he can always sell it to him!
Is he smart?
Scrooge is a Guile Hero who often wins by outsmarting his adversaries, but Filler is consistently ahead of him throughout the episode, countering the defenses on his mansion, doing quite a bit of the work in obtaining the script, and ultimately getting the drop on him to steal the script. While his greed nearly convinces him to jump off the cliff and potentially die, he ultimately recognizes his mistake and ends the episode with a potential business deal with Scrooge on the rise.
Is he a bastard?
He never intended to honour his deal with Scrooge to split the profits, stealing the script so he could take it all for himself, even at the expense of Drakespeare's reputation. Plus, while he does have a code of honour as a salesman and believes in making his clients feel like they got their money's worth, most of his junk really is just a bunch of useless knickknacks and he mainly gets by through his smooth-talking.
Is he charming?
Let's see... genuinely likes Scrooge and the kids, check... pleasant demeanor, check... graceful in defeat, check... yeah, everything's there.
Verdict?
A keeper, woo-oo!
Edited by DocSharp on Apr 21st 2021 at 9:58:54 AM
Nice! Yes, keep.
Woagh
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Filler.
444444.04 not 444444.44?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Naw, he's creative like that!
A surprising yes to Ducktales' Filler. I thought the Morticia-looking lady was the one who would be proposed when I first saw that. I'm more familiar with the reboot, though I did watch the old 80s cartoon to my mother's annoyance.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
@43: I'd say go for it, since a large amount of approved Whovian M Bs have already been sitting in the draft page for a while, so we should probably just put them up for now and then wait for the pending entrees.
No issues with it, sure.
Edited by Looperreallyreallyrocks on Apr 21st 2021 at 9:50:08 AM
In that case can we all chill on posting writeups for a bit? Just to make getting the new pages up a cleaner process?
The wifi here sucks
The Draftsman of Doom
I found a possible quote about the Grinch:
Goku Black
filler
Second for Charlie Adler btw.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
for Filler.
Changing to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for the Ironsides.
Filler
Dalek Sec write up:
- Dalek Sec is the original leader of the Cult of Skaro, who manage to escape the Great Time War by entering the Void with the Genesis Ark, before arriving in London 2007. Declaring war on the invading Cybermen, the Daleks have the clear advantage despite their fewer numbers. Sec orderrs Rose and then the Doctor to activate the Ark due to needing the touch of a time traveller, before Mickey accidentally activates it, releasing the millions of Daleks trapped inside. Sec attempts to stop the Doctor from reopening a breach, which would suck all Cybermen and Daleks in, but upon being too late the Cult escapes using an emergency temporal shift. Transported to Manhattan 1930, the Cult have little success genetically creating Dalek embryos, leading Sec to include humans in the experiment, in order to evolve the Daleks. Using himself as a test subject, Sec fuses with a human to become a "human-Dalek" hybrid, and experiences human emotions that make him abandon the Dalek's old Absolute Xenophobe view. Ordering his fellow Daleks not to harm the Doctor, Sec convinces the Doctor to assist in making Dalek-humans with human emotions, but is betrayed by the rest of the Cult who decide Sec is no longer a Dalek, instead using pure Dalek DNA. Sec attempts to reason with his fellow Daleks, warning them the path they chose would lead to their death, before sacrificing himself to save the Doctor. Thanks to the Doctor's interference adding Time Lord DNA to the Dalek-humans, they rebel against the Daleks and kill most of them, just as Sec had warned. Considered by the Doctor to be "the cleverest Dalek ever", Sec shows he is just as cunning as he is charming.
Edited by Snowy66 on Apr 22nd 2021 at 5:06:23 AM
Goku Black
And skaldak.
- Grand Marshall Skaldak is the greatest hero that Mars and its Ice Warriors have ever known. Skaldak was imprisoned in ice before the episode begins and released during the episode aboard a Soviet submarine. The submarine crew promptly attacks him, leading him to declare war on the planet after losing all hope of his species still existing with revenge being now all he has. Skaldak secretly gets out of his armour while imprisoned in the boiling room and uses it as a decoy to fool everyone into letting him out. Escaping, he then learns enough information to know how to defeat humanity by using the nukes onboard the submarine to turn the cold war hot. Skaldak is able to effortlessly outmaneuver the other characters while also showing them genuine philosophical respect. Eventually being seconds away from achieving his goal of launching the nukes, Skaldak only loses after being convinced to choose forgiveness and empathy instead and leave in peace.
The Moron
Yeah sure, go ahead and run the Buffyverse page. I’m waiting for my writeups until I’m done with the season, so it’ll be a minute before they go up - feel free to lock it for now
Goku Black
I'll try and get everyone done by the end of the week on my side.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The MILF Virus
So I got another candidate in mind and this guy was someone I was planning to do for a while. This time we're taking a look on Valkyria Chronicles 4 with the most requiring enemy of the game, Klaus Waltz, the leader of Ausbruch!
What the setting? In Valkyria Chronicles 4, it's a story about the Second Europan War, a war between The Atlantic Federation and East Europan Empire, where the Empire begins a massive conquering spree with the Federal Alliance forming to counter their domination resolving the special energy source called Ragnite. While this is also the same setting as the first game, this game focuses on an unknown platoon that worked on a secret mission to defeat the Empire. The Atlantic Federation's Edinburgh Army 101st Division Platoon E led by Claude Wallace, executing Operation Northern Cross, a top-secret scheme in hopes to put an end to the war, by taking the Empire's capital. However, as the game progresses, this secret plan becomes clearly part of a more dubious execution that places this war in a more moral grey, involving the legendary Valkyria. This trek through a snowy field shows just how similar the two sides are even with the rise of an evil organization called X-O, with one character being probably one of the most inspiring characters ever and formidable opponents the player will face. I give the Ausbruch commander, Klaus Waltz!
Who is Klaus Waltz and what does he do?
A bastard son of a novel, Klaus Waltz didn't feel right being part of the high society that won't respect him or his mother, a maid that entered in an affair with an Empire's noble. Running to the slums, Klaus struggled to survive but admitted he preferred this life over the discrimination he suffered before. Clawing back to the ranks, he eventually gained top honors and position in the military with his own hands, given the right to lead an elite force, Ausbruch. Sent to defeat the Federation planning to execute Operation Northern Cross, Klaus Waltz is the most recurring enemy faced throughout the game.
With a personally outfitted tank made by his own design, Klaus is a dangerous opponent. Whenever he appears he always drives the Federation into a corner. While Claude is able to counter him, Klaus still usually leaves massive damage to the Federation military forces. However, this is to Klaus' liking when Claude was able to defeat him in a massive battle Klaus became so impressed he wanted to chase and continue fighting Claude nicknaming him his soulmate. This led to multiple battles where many Klaus is able to get the upper hand, destroying the Federation main camp, and even wiping another platoon completely except for the platoon's commander and right-hand man, all through his mastery over the battle, his tenacity, and leadership that Ausbruch completely respects, and his own intuition where he has the guts to defy military orders if Klaus believes a better plan of attack can be executed. However, when the Federation's Navy Forces showed a secret weapon the Empire was not prepared for, Klaus is seen as a failure by the Imperial nobles, demoted into supply duty.
However, because of history in the field and Heinrich's influence, Klaus was added to the organization X-O where he's given the role of one of the force's commanders, though Klaus was reluctant only accepting when he was told it would save his Ausbruch soldiers from dishonor and other potential punishments. Deciding to make the best he can do with the other X-O members, Klaus tries to befriend them all which normally ends in vain, though he does eventually gain the respect of Forseti. He's also one of the few to trick Crymaria with any sort of respect, despite flirting with her, eventually forming a romantic interest towards her and committing himself to her. While trying to unite X-O he also continues engaging the main character's Federation Plan and even manages to outplay them a great number of times. He has also shown more ruthlessness with these attacks when learning the Federation was planning to use suicidal child soldiers for Operation Norther Cross disgusted by their action. If it weren't for Claude's adaptability, and the natural talent of his platoon, Klaus might've wiped them out and prevent their plan.
This culminates to a final confrontation with him after forming a close relationship with Crymaria by opening up to each other. Facing each other at the foot at the lands before the Imperial Capital, Klaus with Crymaria unleashes a secret maneuver that managed to drive the Federation into a corner, though he ultimately loses and seemingly killed which caused Crymaria to go into a rampage which he stops when it turns out he survived his tank's explosions. Committed to Crymaria, Klaus hides out with her until the war ends, returning to the capital while showing no hard feelings to the Federation forces. When Heinrich and X-O seem to have more plans after the war ended, Klaus was willing to help the Federation to stop him, giving them his tank the Vulcan to chase them down which became essential in putting to an end Heinrich's evil ambitions and X-O as a while. After the war, it's presumed Klaus lived his remaining days in peace with Crymaria.
Is he Magnificent?
Absolutely, Klaus is beloved and respected by his own forces, considered one of the most successful commanders in the East Europan Empire, while able to drive the Federation into a corner multiple times and almost nearly put an end to Claude, and did all this with his own abilities in leadership, determination, and spirit. Plus he's one of the few X-O members whose plans manage to succeed in some way and when he seemingly is killed in his last fight, Claude and his group show respect to Klaus and admits despite being an enemy, he was a great man calling him a Worthy Opponent.
Too Much of a Bastard?
Here's the part I was a little uncertain about because Klaus is generally not really evil or malicious when it comes to fighting. He's honorable, a Noble Demon who fights with all he got and doesn't have any ill intentions. That said, Klaus is willing to commit whatever it takes to win as long as it doesn't go too far, massacring The Federation military power multiple times even if they don't have tanks and he doesn't mind bombing them to kingdom come, but to Klaus he sees as a necessary in war and doesn't mind if the enemy fights back. Again it's a job and he'll get it done, even if his clientele is not the nicest, because Klaus is a man of his word and he genuinely believes in the Empire.
Final Verdict:
Gotta say, this guy should be an absolute keeper, and he's honestly more likable than the heroes if I'll be honest.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
looks good.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."