The ComicBook/ Namespace, and the lack of requirements to qualify

I'm going to get rid of the redirects and change them to lists of comics from each franchise.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

Uhhhhh…. you do realize what you just did, right?

Now we have thousands of wicks bringing us to a disambiguation when they’re supposed to be bringing us towards the actual work pages, remind you of anything?

Edited by GeneralGigan on Jun 24th 2021 at 2:58:33 PM

SKREEEEEEEONK!

On its own that isn't bad (it's the same thing that happens every other time we need to disambiguate something and it can't be solved by a simple redirect.)

Well i don’t know what the solution is then. What should we do? I don’t want to move them back to comicbook but I wasn’t sure about the redirects.

What I did was supposed to be a stopgap solution. People didn’t like that I moved the comics to a franchise namespace which is fair so I tried to fix it by making the Comicbook namespace a index for all the different comics in each franchise so they could add tropes to whichever run they wanted. Leaving the franchise as a area for general tropes about the franchise while character tropes went to the characters pages. I probably did it wrong idk. If I did then that’s my bad.

Edited by GateStarX on Jun 24th 2021 at 2:31:46 AM

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

Concerning ComicBook.The Punisher, sounds like the contents should be split between that page, Franchise.The Punisher, and Characters.The Punisher, which will require some work to go through the list and figure out what goes where. Non-comic adaptations should be listed on the Franchise page.

See that’s what needs to be done. I was just trying to do a stopgap method and move them out of comicbook atm because with them describing more of the characters then the comics themselves they aren’t really exclusively comics pages.

Unrelated I think the punisher picture should be updated but that’s just a personal opinion.

Edited by GateStarX on Jun 24th 2021 at 3:16:50 AM

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

Let's be clear on something. The previous discussion was about comic book characters and how to organize them, given their special way of jumping from comic to comic. What is happening now is a completely different proposal.

Let's use the Avengers as an example. We are talking about a comic book with 58 years of publication history. It is a work, and must have a page. Redirecting it elsewhere is wrong. Placing a mere disambiguation list of related works is wrong. Moving it to the "Franchise" namespace is wrong because the term may be confusing. In everyday usage a "franchise" is any work with sequels and spin-offs, in TV tropes it is specifically for adaptations to other media. If everything stays confined in a single media it belongs in that media namespace, such as with Age of Empires, even if it is still a franchise in practice. And the Avengers have actually two "franchises": the multimedia franchise, which is the comic and the adaptations to film, animated series, videogames, etc; and the comic book "franchise" of runs, spin-off comics, limited series, and whatnot. The entry in the Franchise namespace must focus on the first, and the entry in the comic book namespace must focus on the second.

As for "what needs to be done"... it's really simple. Respect the three namespaces (comic book, franchise and character) without making disruptive changes, let each one of them have their own image, description, indexes, tropes and whatever they need, and then go through the details. If a small index of related works belongs elsewhere (such as a comic listing the adaptations), move it to the franchise, but only that, leave the rest as it is. If you want to change the image or top quote, go to the specific threads for that. Check if each trope is about a character, just the comic book or has a franchise scope, and move or keep (or rewrite) as needed. But I have bad news for you: it is a slow and tedious work, and there are no shortcuts. You can't simply say "let's cut and paste the whole comic book page into the franchise namespace", pat yourself in the back and call it a day.

Ultimate Secret Wars

quick note on the redirects- generally think this thread is a great idea, btw!

1. When splitting a page between character namespace and comic book namespace, this often leaves links which currently point at ComicBook.Character Name but should actually point at Characters.Character Name (for example, ComicBook.Doctor Doom now refers specifically to his 2019 comic series, but still has many page images pointing at it that are just general pictures of Dr Doom from other comics. I know this is a pain but at some point they should be looked through, at least the big ones like page images. I'll do my best to help out)

In fact... there may be a few cases where I would argue for putting the actual comic book under a seperate title (such as Doctor Doom (2019) and having the page ComicBook.Doctor Doom either a disambig or a redirect to Characters.Marvel Comics Doctor Doom. If nothing else, because I feel like 90% of the people who are attempting to link to "Doctor Doom" are trying to link to the character rather than the miniseries. This type of redirect could always be removed later when people get more used to the new style

2. Is it ok to make Characters.Character Name redirects which point at the character page when it doesn't interfere with anything else? For example Characters.Doctor Doom redirect to Characters.Marvel Comics Doctor Doom or Bucky Barnes redirect to Marvel Comics: Bucky Barnes although obviously this wouldn't work for bigger characters like Iron Man

Edited by Tremmor19 on Jun 24th 2021 at 10:28:47 AM

There shouldn't be very many links pointing to Characters.Marvel Comics Doctor Doom at all, even after the cleanup.

I'll bet that most links to ComicBook.Doctor Doom are random mentions of the character in an example. These should generally be removed rather than changed to point to Characters/.

There are 1063 links pointing at Comicbook.Doctor Doom- to me, they don't all seem to be a problem. Most of them are along the lines of "Doctor Doom does trope x to The Fantastic Four during the events of blah blah blah" which seems pretty informative and not misused to me. they do need to point at the character page rather than the miniseries, though

I like the way its being done for characters such as Scarlet Witch and Thanos- ComicBook.Scarlet Witch redirects to the main page for this character. This gets trickier with characters who also have a self-titled comic, of course, but there should still be either a disambig or at least a prominent link to the main character sheet, since thats the page most people are looking for.

Edited by Tremmor19 on Jun 24th 2021 at 11:57:35 AM

I'm quoting this to reinforce a point. I refer to single-media franchises versus multimedia franchises because The Punisher is a comic franchise as well as a multimedia franchise. You can see my handiwork in building Literature.Foundation Series versus Franchise.Foundation. The first is the literature franchise and the second is the multimedia franchise. I think we made a mistake in calling the namespace just Franchise/ due to people regularly making the mistake of assuming any franchise belongs in the franchise namespace (link to cleanup thread for that), and the namespace should've been called MultimediaFranchise/, but it works well enough when used properly. Moving the entire page over to the multimedia namespace was improper because we need the page for the comicbook franchise.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Ok I think that makes sense. I didn’t really need the condescension regarding the point. What about the other pages. I.e. Franchise.Wolverine, Franchise.Superman, Franchise.Batman, and Franchise.The Flash.

The only reason I did the moves were because I saw other examples of the same and as stated above the general use of the word franchise. Should the rest be moved as well.

Also if we can’t move the pages to the Franchise Namespace how are we going to deal with it. These are mainly the only pages left in the marvel that are more or less about characters and not the comics.

I’ve tried to separate a couple of pages as seen in the splits section of Gigan Kills the Marvel Universe but it’s a little difficult. I.e. what about ComicBook.Iron Man vs Characters.Iron Man?

Edited by GateStarX on Jun 25th 2021 at 12:42:28 PM

It's gonna be fun on the bun!

Why did you move the tropes about Wolverine in the films to the Comic Book namespace?

They are misuse and I linked the relevant cleanup thread.

As I instructed the thread; rewrite each page to fulfill their functions. I don't see a reason why these IP can't have both, they just need to focus on the proper subjects (multimedia franchises and comic book franchises).

---

My two recent posts aren't actually directed at you specifically, as misuse of Franchise/ is a recurring issue. The first post was about personal experience and citing places editors can check to see what I'm talking about. The second post was an update to the thread as a whole based on moderator action. Is there a sentence you'd like me to reword?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

• Character.Iron Man: explain who is Iron Man (comic book version), which is his deal, and tropes that describe him as a character.
• Comicbook.Iron Man: explain what is the comic about, who created it and when, and how the comic evolved over the years (notable runs, when were big characters introduced, times when the comic is relaunched or has spin-offs, etc). No need to talk about other media, unless it explains something about the comic itself (such as the popularity of MCU Iron Man leading to his characterization overwriting the one the comic had until then). Then a list of comic book works, and tropes about the comics and their plots. Any trope about something that happened in an Iron Man comic, that does not describe a character and can't be placed in a more specific entry, goes here. Alternate versions that are also from comics (such as Heroes Reborn: Iron Man) are listed, but noting them as such.
• Franchise.Iron Man: List all the adaptations of Iron Man in media other than comics, and a text explaining the whole franchise if you feel up to the task. Tropes should be the ones that involve more than one type of media, such as adaptational tropes.

Edited by GrigorII on Jun 25th 2021 at 11:04:25 AM

Ultimate Secret Wars

Exactly. The only correction that I would make is in which articles are indexed;

• Franchise.Iron Man: List all the adaptations of Iron Man in media other than comics, with emphasis on single-medium franchise pages over individual works, and a text explaining the whole franchise if you feel up to the task.

The multimedia franchise page should encompass the original media pages as well as adaptation media. However, we don't actually have a consistent rule for what gets indexed and what doesn't. Something to work towards later.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

So… an Adaptations/ namespace is in consideration, which led me to an idea……

What if we moved the Marvel Franchise pages (besides the ones that list Tropes, like Spider-Man) to the Adaptations/ namespace^note When it gets made? It wouldn’t do much, since those pages don’t list Tropes anyway, and it would help establish that Namespace as a legitimately separate thing from the Franchise/ Namespace, which it spun off from.

SKREEEEEEEONK!

It's easier to make that decision when we figure out what exactly Adaptations/ is meant to do.

It's an idea floating around to solve the issue presented in the other thread. Feel free to chat about it there.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Okay, I must've missed something: Any reason the Franchise namespace was changed to the Comic Book name space for Wolverine for the Monster sandboxes?

And does the same need to be done for the Marvel Lit and Video Games pages?

EDIT: Actually, to answer the second question, I think we're good there.

Edited by ACW on Jun 27th 2021 at 6:11:28 AM

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Catwoman has four ongoing series and one miniseries. She definitely deserves a ComicBook/ page, along with The Punisher.

Keet cleanup

Are the DC ones gonna be redirected?

And why is Brainiac currently only a Sandbox?

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

I… don’t know when the DC ones are getting redirected, should I do it now?

As for Brainiac, it’s because there’s a work in that domain name, it’l be moved to Characters/ when I do the redirecting.

SKREEEEEEEONK!

If they were definitely just about the character, then go ahead. Hopefully (now that there's more eyes on this project) we can work on converting some of them into proper work pages describing the comics that use Character Title-ing.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.