Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.
Here's a courtesy link: TRS page
. And Badass page with its subtropes. You can also visit the sandbox page here.
Noted Problems include:
- Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
- Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
- Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.
Suggested things to do include:
- Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
- Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
- Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.
There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.
Edited by Berrenta on May 15th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM
I've always understood Badass Princess to be, as some people were arguing earlier, one of the "Unexpected Badass"/contrast sub-family of tropes, involving a Princess Classic type who is nonetheless capable of fighting.
The more straightforward Warrior Princess variant that was also discussed doesn't seem meaningfully distinct from Warrior Prince to me.
edited 13th Dec '15 10:49:44 AM by nrjxll
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Same. I think of Badass Princess as being a Sister Trope to Badass Adorable.
The Other Troper
, I also think that's a good definition. So Xena wouldn't count, but Peach would.
Exactly. That's a good way to put it.
In other news, I launched Hell Has New Management, put it on two indexes and spread 15 wicks for it. There's still more to do but this should get it off the ground.
Unexpected Badass Girl would probably be a more general trope but some of that pretty much describes Tomboy Princess.
But a full on Warrior Princess vs Warrior Prince is quite unique especially when the former usually has Best Her to Bed Her, random unwanted suitors, fighting typical gender roles, has trouble in 'girly situations', may have attendants that invoke No Guy Wants an Amazon. It is treated very distinctly different from Warrior Prince in media as Warrior Prince good and expected Warrior Princess is bad and not expected.
Take Princess Klaudia in Trails In The Sky, she can fight when pushed and the best fencer in her school but is such an extreme girly girl that in no way is she a Warrior Princess. It's quite unexpected that she can fight which would fit in the Unexpected Badass Girl trope but not Warrior Princess.
edited 14th Dec '15 11:44:47 PM by Memers
I think you're conflating a bunch of traits into one trope there that don't really automatically go together. I'm not convinced any of the gendering stuff is inherent enough to make Warrior Princess worth treating as a separate concept from Warrior Prince, as opposed to (my understanding of) Badass Princess where there is a definite existing concept that it is using for a basis. I'm also inclined to think it would be the opposite of Tomboy Princess - though they're both subverting the traditional concept of a princess in fiction, they're doing it in different ways. If anything, it's your Warrior Princess notion that would have much more overlap.
As for the specific example you cite, frankly, I've never heard of it, so it's not that helpful. But from the description alone, yes, it sounds like Princess Klaudia would be an example of the definition I'm seeing for Badass Princess. If she's an example of a badass in the first place, that is, since I'm not sure that being good at fencing as a school sport and being able to fight if pressed would qualify.
To put it another way, here's the breakdown as I basically see it:
- "Conventional Princess" (note that I'm not sure how absolutely this overlaps with the definition of Princess Classic): not able to fight, likes "girly" interests/things/clothing.
- Tomboy Princess: possibly able to fight (dunno if it's necessary, though), likes "tomboyish" interests/things/clothing. The "inversion" way of messing with Conventional Princess (inversion and subversion here are just terms for the different approaches, not literally Inverted Trope and Subverted Trope).
- Badass Princess: able to fight, likes "girly" interests/things/clothing. The "subversion" way of messing with Conventional Princess.
- Warrior Princess: like Warrior Prince (which involves more than just being able to fight), but with the addition of various tropes related to going against gender conventions. I'm not sure this is meaningfully distinct from said tropes and Warrior Prince.
edited 15th Dec '15 12:13:00 AM by nrjxll
I also think that Warrior Prince and Warrior Princess are two different things since one is expected and the other is not. Also Warrior Prince is often a leader but Warrior Princess is more of a solo fighter. The Badass Princess or Warrior Princess is completely different from the Princess Classic.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
But what if the Warrior Princess is from a society where women being warriors is quite normal, perhaps even part of the societally expected gender roles? Like Wonder Woman, Princess of the Amazons of Themyscira?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
The Other Troper
Then that would fall under a Warrior Prince (assuming we turned that into a unisex trope).
Sure. If keep the trope unisex, then naturally it will not be gendered. I say that if we make them seperate tropes, then the distinguishing factor is then the gender and Warrior Prince will have to be modified to reflect this.
Let's say we have a Proud Warrior Race Culture where Gender Is No Object. Then warrior sons of the ruler are no different, by the standards of the culture, then the daughters of the ruler. I believe Memers refers to situations where this is not the case but rather the opposite. However, what to do in situations between these two extremes?
The Other Troper
Well what work examples fall in between these extremes?
Like A Badass Out Of Hell update: Escaped from Hell is now launched, so all of the proposed tropes are out of YKTTW. I'll begin the process of moving examples to their appropriate tropes so we'll know what's left for a possible supertrope/index/just for fun page.
The current list of associated tropes:
- To Hell and Back
- Demon of Human Origin (new)
- Devil's Job Offer (new)
- Hell Has New Management (new)
- Escaped from Hell (new)
- Barred from the Afterlife
edited 16th Dec '15 4:28:57 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
I don't know. I'm speaking hypothetically. I'd prefer to stick with the "Sister Trope to Badass Adorable" idea and not get into the gender politics.
Gender politics are inherent to the prince/princess role though in media and out of media
A princess is expected to be Princess Classic and used as a tool of the kingdom and a prince is expected to be the heir and be some form of Warrior Prince Prince Charming.
Some media break that via Tomboy Princess or Rebellious Princess and some break that via a Warrior Princess which might be better described as an Amazonian type Princess.
edited 16th Dec '15 10:01:34 PM by Memers
I wouldn't say a prince is expected to be a Warrior Prince. The heir, yes. But unless the story is taking place in a 'verse where Royals Who Actually Do Something is in effect, I would expect a prince to be more about politics then wars.
There are also enough gender-neutral fantasy settings that I'm skeptical that you can't have a female Warrior Prince (as in the trope) without her gender coming up.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
But it still wouldn't be seen as strange if a non-heir prince decides to go the martial path, since it's typically seen as a "masculine" profession.
A prince classic is basically Prince Charming, The Hero, dashing, good in a fight, beats the dragon to rescue the Damsel in Distress and so on.
So many princes in media have trials and such to be King thus must know how to fight, princesses do not have anything like that. Then there are the numerous examples of princes serving as grunts in the military to learn and such, including some very well known RL examples, but a princess? No way.
"but a princess? No way." We're discussing the Badass Princess trope, right? The one with the big, long list of examples, including seventeen in the Real Life folder?
It's possible for an author to have a princess, who fights, and not use tropes like You Go, Girl!, Best Her to Bed Her or Stay in the Kitchen. It's possible for gender politics of every kind to be absent. It's possible for there to be a Warrior Princess who isn't "amazonian", and its possible for there to be a spectrum of "princesses who fight in battle" between "amazonian" and Princess Classic.
Most of those Badass Princesses like that are Rebellious Princess and specifically not following what is expected of them. Very few are straight up fighting for King and country in open public and it's ok for them to do that.
edited 17th Dec '15 1:39:39 PM by Memers
I present as exception, Princess Natalia of Kimlasca.
"Princess Natalia from Tales of the Abyss is very proficient with a bow and arrow, accompanies Luke and his pals on their journey, helps solve political issues, never gets kidnapped, (okay, maybe once, for about ten seconds) and stands for her nation no matter what."
One of her victory quotes is, "I win for me is a win for my country!"
In fact, the trope already makes a distinction between itself and Rebellious Princess: "While this and the Rebellious Princess sometimes go hand in hand, they do not equal each other. In fact, a badass princess will often fight because she's loyal to her nation, and would fight to defend it at any cost."
edited 17th Dec '15 2:07:24 PM by ChaoticNovelist
I said 'few'.
And that would be an aversion, one actually discussed in the work and gets very complicated. It's fine for those to exist but that isn't the trope I was talking about.
edited 17th Dec '15 2:23:47 PM by Memers
I'm sorry. When you said "very few", I thought you meant "there aren't any". I see a lot of tropers have problems with issues of scale, and that's why "pretty much" is used so often.
What trope are you talking about? Perhaps we need to make a spectrum of Badass Princess like with Like A Badass Out Of Hell. For instance:
1. Badass Princess as Sister Trope to Badass Adorable.
2. Badass Princess as the Distaff Counterpart to Warrior Prince.
3. Badass Princess as gender politics+badass feats.
4. Badass Princess as "Amazon".
edited 17th Dec '15 2:24:34 PM by ChaoticNovelist
The way I see it is more splitting it.
- Action Princess, a princess and she can fight, in RP Gs they typically are the White Magician Girl or something close to it. Like Natalia or Rosa
- Warrior Princess, full on Military / Combat princess and leader/general type. There is a huge difference from 'I can fight' and 'I am an heir to the empire/kingdom and I am going to act like it'.
- Surprise Action Girl Princess, in work the princess is expected to be dainty and spoiled but instead she pulls out a minigun out of her Victoria's Secret Compartment and uses it, all about the reveal to be not-princess classic. Related to Silk Hiding Steel.
Also discussed
- Princess Etiquette Avoidance: people in the work expect her to be girly and princess like with an Arranged Marriage and other gender stereotypes but she ain't having it. Related to Tomboy Princess.
edited 17th Dec '15 4:08:31 PM by Memers
By the way, we still haven't resolved Badass Princess.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.