So. Personal opinions on the main wiki aren't allowed, be they gushing or bashing. Now, bashing gets tolerated even less than gushing, and that makes sense; it leads to more flamewars.
But that doesn't mean we have to live with all the gushing either. This thread can serve as a center for keeping it in check. One function might be to alert people to pages that are really heavy in gushing, to the point that it's not just a quick fix and will need some assistance.
Mochi-Doughnut-man
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't see how any of the other pages are exempt from having "obvious" cases of people hyping things up. Even if they're much less frequent.
I understand that this is a controversial subject, but I still think it's worth thinking about. Or at least worth putting up some time requirement like with Broken Base to reduce knee-jerk entries.
Edited by mrbits on Aug 5th 2018 at 3:34:28 AM
I feel like there's a large difference in terms of personal subjective taste between "this scared me" and "this was funny/cool", in that 'scared' implies an at least moderate reaction, whereas (say) a Funny Moments entry doesn't necessarily imply that the person who added it thought it was superlatively, jaw-droppingly hilarious.
Mochi-Doughnut-man
(Yes, I'm bringing this back)
Okay. After giving this some thought, I partially and reluctantly agree with the above post (for now). Something being funny/cool doesn't necessarily imply a moderate reaction like begin scared does. HOWEVER, I think Tear Jerkers at least should get a similar level of scrutiny. "This made me sad" at least implies a moderate reaction, similar to "this scared me." Even the main Tear Jerker page says that it's about moments that the viewer isn't impassive about.
One series that has plenty of entries that are ACTIVELY REACHING for sad moments is Super Smash Bros.
- Arguably mild, but in Melee and Brawl, after you and your character struggle through one of the single-player modes together, he or she becomes nothing more than a lifeless trophy while a sad music box tune plays in the background.
- In Melee's intro, the scene where Sheik looks up at the sky, with a ghostly image of Zelda's head following her movement, implying that Sheik is not just a transformation. It is no coincidence that this is the point where the music slows down.
- On the topic of Marth, one of his win quotes can be translated as "Today, I was able to survive again." It is quite possible that this is referencing the Perma-death system in his own series. And when one looks into them, despite them often being misinterpreted differently, it's also possible to interpret his other quotes, (a relieved and somewhat childish "It seems I have won for today", a determined "I cannot afford to lose!", and "Everyone, please watch me!", said with a rather pleading tone), as well as the fact that in one of his idle animations he puts his hand over his chest and seemingly breaths to regain composure, as further evidence that the war never ended for him. Even in a friendly competition like Smash, the poor guy still can't get the battlefield and its constant threat of death out of his mind. On a similar note, Roy describes the battle he just fought as "painful" in one of his victory quotes.
- Lucas's Japanese Trophy description in Smash Bros. 3DS isn't actually about the character. Instead, it goes on to say how Lucas may well have made a family and have lived a happy life… then says how he and Ness may well be kids forever to MOTHER fans. Not bad at first, until you realize it's referring to how we'll probably never see another MOTHER game, and never see how their lives went… although the localized Trophies are slightly more upbeat about it.
- Though Ganondorf's "hurt" sound is pretty humorous if you don't really listen for it (It sounds like "Ooooohh"), putting on headphones/earbuds (or listening very hard) reveals a very pained breathing noise after the mentioned "oh", almost wheezing. It's very jarring to hear and rather out of place. He may be the king of evil, but...
- The fact that the DLC fighters don't have individual Palutena-Pit conversations is pretty heartbreaking if you think about it, since Pit apparently doesn't remember Lucas despite them both being in Brawl and fighting in the Subspace Emissary. What the heck happened?
These ones are essentially going "If you are actively looking for a reason to feel sad about this, then you might feel sad about this." A Tear Jerker entry shouldn't have to do that. This is just my first comb through, I'll do less overtly forced ones later.
I'm looking act Yu-Gi-Oh!, which is an entire page of people admiring dub changes. Isn't Woolseyism supposed to be about changes to the script to make a translation work in a new language rather than "I like the change the dub made!"?
- During the filler season, the dubbing and 4Kids famous Never Say "Die" policies probably had the unintended consequence of giving Raphael a more plausible reason to think Humans Are the Real Monsters. In the original version, Dartz drove the cruise ship he was on with his family into a tidal wave and only he survived, lived on an island for awhile, then after he was rescued, decided Humans Are the Real Monsters for no discernible reason. In the dub, however, Dartz drove the ship into a tidal wave, he was washed onto an island, then came back and his family supposedly forgot about him. Just about anyone would Madden Into Misanthropy if your own family "moved on" and didn't seem to accept you even when you came back after xx years...
- Bakura from Yu-Gi-Oh! also uses a polite speech pattern. The dub gave him a British accent. The creator of Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series, who is actually British, had a lot of fun with this, to the point where Bakura became the abridged series's Breakout Character.
- By contrast, the dub took Jonouchi's ruder speech pattern and gave Joey Wheeler a Brooklyn accent. The Abridged Series ran with this as well, making Joey the Trope Namer for Brooklyn Rage.
- During Yugi's duel with Mai in the original version, Yugi's mind was only focused on dueling Pegasus, causing him to become cocky and not take Mai seriously. In the dub, Yugi is holding back Yami because he's still traumatized by Yami nearly killing Kaiba in the last duel and isn't sure he can trust the spirit. The dub also foreshadows the fate of Pegasus's wife by having him give an internal monologue about it, which his VA Darren Dunstan delivers excellently. In the original version it was a filler conversation between Yugi's friends and Bakura.
- In Season 2, Marik wants to kill Dark Yugi and doesn't care about the Millennium Puzzle, while in the dub he wants to take the Millennium Puzzle from him and is only allowed to do so by beating him in a duel, by the laws of Ancient Egypt. This gave a convenient Hand Wave to the Why Don't Ya Just Shoot Him?? problem Marik has, he can't just kill Dark Yugi/banish him to the Shadow Realm, he has to beat him in a duel first, then he'll kill/banish him. Additionally with the Shadow Realm, Marik's plans to kill Dark Yugi were rather foolish in the original Japanese since Dark Yugi is an ancient spirit inhabiting the Millennium Puzzle, you effectively can't kill him by chopping off his legs or drowning him, you'll just kill his host. In the dub, Marik plans to send Dark Yugi to the Shadow Realm, so 4Kids made his death traps magical in nature and thus they pose a danger to him.
- As a side-effect, when Marik had Yami Yugi duel the possessed Joey, 4Kids did not censor the idea that the loser will be dragged into the sea chained to an anchor, or that if Yami Yugi refuses to duel Marik's minion will drop a crate from a crane onto Téa. So by making Marik's death traps magical, the one trap he used where it was obvious the loser would die had a more powerful impact and thus higher stakes. While being banished to the Shadow Realm certainly is nightmarish, it is still reversible, a chance to escape. Death though, is final.
- It even adds a layer of Fridge Brilliance to him: being the only non-magical trap, it's the one who doesn't threaten the Pharaoh, and it's also the one when he's not dueling a minion of Marik, but one of his friends, adding a lot of of psychological pressure that could make the Pharaoh more willing to lose.
- As a side-effect, when Marik had Yami Yugi duel the possessed Joey, 4Kids did not censor the idea that the loser will be dragged into the sea chained to an anchor, or that if Yami Yugi refuses to duel Marik's minion will drop a crate from a crane onto Téa. So by making Marik's death traps magical, the one trap he used where it was obvious the loser would die had a more powerful impact and thus higher stakes. While being banished to the Shadow Realm certainly is nightmarish, it is still reversible, a chance to escape. Death though, is final.
- Pegasus' goal in the original is to recreate his wife via holograms, and to do that, he has to defeat Yugi to gain control of Kaiba Corp's technology. This made sense in the manga, but not in the anime in which he already has access to advanced hologram technology. The dub changes it so that his needing to defeat Yugi is a little more necessary: he wishes to collect his Millennium Puzzle, along with the other Millennium Items, to bring back his wife's soul and put her inside a new mechanical body rather than a hologram. While a little convoluted for what amounts to just asking him for the item, it does work, especially at the end where it's revealed that collecting the seven items does indeed open a portal to the afterlife.
- In the dub of the Virtual World arc, Noah's research was on ways to expand the digital world across the internet to improve its capabilities, and Gozaburo used that research for his plan to digitize all of mankind so he could rule the virtual world as a God-Emperor of humanity. In the original Japanese anime, Noah's research was on how to use Kaiba Corps' weapons systems to destroy most of the world's major cities, killing all but 3% of mankind, and he conducted this project just to prove his capabilities as a superhuman. Then when Noah failed to defeat Seto in their duel, Gozaburo decides to put Noah's plan into action because... because. It's implied the two have begun to go mad with power from being in the virtual world and transcending their humanity, but still; ruling the world makes much more sense than destroying it, at least for the Kaibas. In addition, Noah had no idea Gozaburo was alive and inside the Virtual World in the original, which made no sense given how long he's been there and how much control he has over it. In the dub, Noah was always working for Gozaburo, rather than it being a Hijacked by Ganon situation.
- The duel with Bandit Keith (which is not in the manga) has Marik have Keith steal the Millennium Puzzle and then duel Yugi for it, as Yugi will be a much easier opponent to defeat without the Pharaoh's help. The Japanese version has Marik make Yugi and Keith duel so he can confirm that the Pharaoh sleeps in the Millennium Puzzle and Yugi is his host, things that, between his Tombkeeper upbringing and control of Keith's mind, he already knows anyway. The Japanese version also mentions Yami Yugi staying in the Millennium Puzzle and not helping Yugi because he senses Marik watching them. Not only is this a flimsy justification for him not getting involved, but the idea that Yami Yugi could take control of Yugi's body when he's not wearing the puzzle is a Voodoo Shark that raises a lot more questions. The dub simplifies this to "their bond is too weak for them to switch places without Yugi wearing the Puzzle."
- A minor point in the duel between Joey and Odion. Odion seals the Winged Dragon of Ra in the ark on his Temple of the Kings card, then tributes Mystical Beast Serket and pays half his Life Points to summon Ra, and all of Serket's ATK points transfer to Ra. The dub makes it sound like this is an effect of Temple of the Kings, circumventing the need to tribute three monsters to summon Ra and powering it up another way since it has no Tributes to gain ATK from. The Japanese anime (and the original manga as well) instead treat this like a normal Tribute Summon, with Serket acting as three Tributes since it had previously destroyed and absorbed three of Jounochi's monsters. Aside from this rule being ridiculous, it begs the question of what the point was to seal Ra in Temple of the Kings and why Rishid has to pay half his Life Points to summon it, when he could have just kept it in his hand and Tribute Summoned it normally.
- Again, in the Orichalcos filler arc (specifically, the Yami vs. Weevil rematch), the dub replaces Yami Yugi shouting "MONSTAH CARDO" with Dan Green's glorious poison-tipped snark. ("THIS JUST ISN'T YOUR DAY!!!")
- There's also Shizuka whose name was translated as "Serenity" in America. Not sure how Honda became "Tristan" and Anzu became "Tea" though...
- The dub, Bowdlerization aside, had its quota of Woolseyisms. The theme naming of Yugi and Jounouchi (Yu + Jou = Yujou, which means "friendship" in Japanese) was retained with Yugi and Joey; the Mei and Kyuu brothers (Meikyuu = Maze) were changed to Para and Dox (Paradox); and so on. Many jokes of the original version, which relied heavily on Japanese puns and cultural references, were changed fittingly for the dub, especially in the first season.
- Pegasus's Dub Name Change was also notable. In the Japanese version, Pegasus was his given name, with his full name being Pegasus J. Crawford. The dub more appropriately made Pegasus his surname, and his first name became Maximillion, a fitting name conveying he is a man of great wealth and taste. Further cementing it as a Woolseyism, this was one of the few name changes that stuck for the English manga translation.
- The Shadow Realm, as a concept, was actually largely created by 4Kids for the dub (so they can Never Say "Die" as much as they can get away with). For a number of people, the idea of your body and soul being sent straight to the verse's equivalent to Hell, as opposed to simply dying, is much more terrifying. This especially works during the championship duel against Pegasus, where Yami warns an increasingly exhausted Yugi that if he keeps on fighting, "your soul will be shredded!" The Japanese version did imply that Shadow Games were fought in another dimension, and later used the concept of a "World of Darkness" in the final season of GX.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Sep 9th 2018 at 5:50:26 AM
I think part of that is from this paragraph in Woolseyism. "Woolsey's changes? They actually worked. Some of the lines were so well integrated into the collective consciousness of the game that they have been embraced by the fandom instead of reviled. Though a good number of the script changes were probably unnecessary, many fans have come to the agreement that they don't hurt the final product; sometimes they even make it better. The script has diverged from the original — maybe wildly — and yet, it works anyway. That's a Woolseyism: The Pragmatic Adaptation's answer to a Cut-and-Paste Translation. It can also apply to scene additions that weren't in the original source.
Woolseyisms and well-made dubs overall are most likely to be found within translated seinen anime, where even with the Animation Age Ghetto, translators know better than to attempt to turn an adult program into a low-quality kids' show. Shōnen anime, with their younger demographics, usually don't fare as well. Woolseyisms are also so common in Latin American dubs that many people actually prefer watching the Hispanic dub rather than the Japanese original."
It's only on the next-to-last paragraph in the main article that we get "Compare Good Bad Translation. Contrast They Changed It, Now It Sucks!, or Macekre. Please note that this trope is about script changes in translation that do not change the actual story flow and only exist to ensure meaning is conveyed between cultures; the process of throwing a script out entirely and rewriting it nearly from scratch is a whole other trope and can of worms."
I'm pretty sure a lot of that page is my fault, at least for the original manga/anime. Sorry about that ^^; I didn't realize it didn't fit the trope. Other YGO pages have that on their YMMV pages too, like GX and Arc-V, as well as the original series' manga folder.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Sep 9th 2018 at 9:19:49 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Chronic lore addict
New to culling stuff of this nature from this wiki. Is this entry in Awesome.GundamBuildDivers gushing?
- When Game Master chides Kyoya for risking the very existence of GBN on a Gunpla battle, Kyoya bites back that GBN's entire existence is for the purposes of Gunpla battles.
I'm inclined to believe so because I've watched the scene in question, and there really isn't a hint of enthusiasm or furor in the argument the entry talks about, only Game Master presenting his point and Kyoya matter-of-factly correcting him on the matter. "If you spent as much time fightin' as ye did hidin', maybe this wouldn't have happened!"
Bojack Horseman and its subpages are very gushy.
"One of the main reasons why Bojack Horseman has received much critical and audience attention is its harsh and successful Deconstruction of Hollywood, life, true love, narcissism, depression and the eternal search for happiness."
The Protomen enhanced my life.
The Unknown
VideoGame.The World Ends With You has a fair amount of gushing in the description.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
The only part of that that I'd consider "gushing" would be this part of the fourth paragraph:
Not sure where else to put this, but bigbossbalrog removed this Narm example from YMMV.Crisis Core with the edit reason: "Horseshit. The ending is widely regarded as one of the saddest put in a video game."
I know the moments pages are gushy by default, but Revolutionary_Jack is a huge Peter Parker/Mary Jane supporter, and while I also like that couple, stuff like "Peter Parker and Mary-Jane Watson have flat-out one of the all-time greatest love stories and romances in comics and YA fiction in general." on the Heartwarming page is pushing it to me. (They've also edited some other pages to be more gushy towards them as well, like on One True Love.)
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
The Tear Jerker page for Milo Murphy's Law seems to have a lot of examples that are either devoid of context, or only sad if you reach really, really hard, and I think it could use some cleanup. Thoughts
?
Posted this in the TGWTG cleanup thread but I'm not sure how many people read it and it's too big for one person, so I'm posting it here too.
TearJerker.To Boldly Flee is really gushy towards the middle/end of the page and the Funny.To Boldly Flee, Awesome.To Boldly Flee, and Heartwarming.To Boldly Flee pages gush for all of it. Even the Trivia.To Boldly Flee and YMMV.To Boldly Flee pages are gushy.
The Protomen enhanced my life.
I don't think trivia and YMMV are gushy, talking about the bad stuff too, but leave the subjectives for me to clean it'll be fine.
I cut up one dozen new men and you will die somewhat, again and again.
A Star Wars Nerd
The description for Mai-Hime is very gushy from the third paragraph on- "One of the better anime to appear on Japanese television in the 2004-2005 season..."
I'm not familiar with the series, but the description needs a heavy rewrite and the rest of the page could probably use a look, too
Edited by Ashfire on Jan 1st 2019 at 1:37:43 AM
This example on YMMV.Ghost Of Tsushima seems a bit much:
- Scenery Porn: Ghost of Tsushima will be R-rated, but it's not entirely clear if this is because of the blood, gore, dismemberments and War Is Hell aspects of the game, or if it is because of the gorgeous landscapes, such as the marshes, covered in flitting mists, herons wading about in the shallow waters between the drowned trees with luminous, white flowers breaking through its clear surface; forests of tall and straight bamboo trees, reaching for the heavens as daybreak's sunlight filters through their lush greenery; the fields of the Otsuna grasslands, with their tall, golden grass billowing in waves as the wind blows across the open field and the morning mists make way for a new day... We may need some time in our bunks.
...
From Critical Dissonance:
- The Legend of Korra has been well-received by critics with positive reviews all around. Fans, on the other hand, had a more mixed reception, viewing it as a Contested Sequel to Avatar: The Last Airbender. However, with the arrival of Book 3, the series has become universally acclaimed by both critics and fans as well, with the remaining detractors mainly being The Last Airbender purists.
I don't know how accurate that last line is. Book 3 certainly helped the series, but I still see a large portion of the fandom deride the series.
Scenery Porn isn't YMMV, so you should definitely remove it.
It's gone.
Yandere Simulator's pages are pretty gushy, especially the YMMV and Trivia pages which seems to worship the creator.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Jan 17th 2019 at 8:25:49 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
The Awesome.Bill Nye The Science Guy page has a lot of examples that are about Bill Nye the person and not the show, including "here's a point by point summary of how he crushed a guy in a debate on creationism" that seems like ROCEJ to me.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Jan 19th 2019 at 9:25:29 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
The big problem w/ Critical Dissonance is that how you percieve the fan base feels towards a work can differ wildly depending on which corners of the fan base you travel in. A previous thread said that it required a difference in "overall opinion" i.e. critics as a whole think it's good, fans think it's bad. My impression regarding Korra is that general consensus at least leans positive for both, but that based only on my personal experience in the fandom.
Edit: Went to Rotten Tomatoes and imdb to see if I could get data to back up my impressions, and both seem to put into question whether there was ever that much dissonance at all. The audience scores on rotten tomatoes are positive for all seasons of Korra, and actually higher than the critical score for season two.
Edited by TheMountainKing on Jan 20th 2019 at 1:27:45 PM
Chronic lore addict
Does And the Fandom Rejoiced have relaxed standards on what is and isn't gushing? Because SuperRobotWars has some indentation that feels off due to the nature of the writing, as well as use of This Troper. It also doesn't feel like I'm reading the wiki itself when I go through these pages in general.
Moreover, SuperSmashBros has an overabundance of images, though that's probably a separate issue.
Edited by TrocyteV on Mar 24th 2019 at 8:13:05 AM
"If you spent as much time fightin' as ye did hidin', maybe this wouldn't have happened!"
I have to say, I'm inclined to agree with Septimus here in regards to the "moments" pages. I was uncomfortable about the Nightmare Fuel cleanup, but there at least there were some obvious cases of hyping things up. With this, though, I can't see how it doesn't come across as policing people's opinions.
Edited by nrjxll on Aug 5th 2018 at 4:37:09 AM