Spider-Man General Discussion

Interesting. I wonder if DC did it if Gwen would have been killed because part of the reason they got on board was that they realized they were doing something that hadn't been done. And of course Iris would be devastating because she really is Barry's "Lois Lane", whereas Conway pointed out that Gwen wasn't but new readers would think she was. And of course Ross Andru who did the cover joined Conway for his later run and stuck around for a while.

Of course, Iris' death in that outline seems to be a lot more abstract and fantastic, there isn't that personal dimension of actual failure and the bad guy getting a goal in that you had in the Spider-Man story. Here this is like Orpheus and Eurydice, sad, but you know Death wanted to kill her, so what can you do. Whereas in Spider-Man, Peter failing is what makes that so awful and horrible. And Spider-Man at the time was the company mascot and great hero, the equivalent of Superman and Batman, whereas Flash never matched Superman and Batman in popularity. Doing a story with Superman failing would have been the bolder option (and something flirted with in Richard Donner's film but ultimately didn't go).

Didn't Stan Lee intend for Peter to be with Gwen, while MJ was an unattainable ideal who spoke in indecipherable 60s slang or something? (I wonder who was more hip, her or Snapper Carr from the Justice League XD)

Edited by lalalei2001 on Dec 9th 2018 at 12:40:03 PM

Stan Lee was a man who kept changing his ideas...and as Editor-In-Chief, he was laissez-faire which means that when Gerry Conway up-and-coming writer said he wanted to whack Gwen and move MJ in place, he just shrugged and said okay. It was the fan backlash that changed his mind and that led him to commission the First Clone Saga from Conway as a backdoor. Basically if people didn't like Peter and MJ dating over Gwen's grave and so on, the clone Gwen would have been the real deal then and there. Once that faded in his 1977 news-strip, he introduced MJ and made her the official love interest and didn't look back. He wasn't like Shooter or Quesada who had a strong editorial view and picture of characters and so on. That doesn't strike me as the attitude of a guy who had strong feelings any which way. So basically Stan Lee is the true grandfather of The Clone Saga. I mean Conway's original story is basically a big Take That! and insult to fans for missing Gwen...that's why Miles Warren the Jackal, the one who blames Peter for failing to save Gwen and wanting to bring her back is some creepy lecherous professor who is basically a necrophiliac. The Jackal is a fan-stand-in for obsessive Gwen shippers and fans.

The fact is that when Ditko was there and he was the one writing Gwen, Lee obviously didn't plan for her to be "the one". That version of Gwen was this arrogant entitled snob and Alpha Bitch and while I still think that is the best written and most compelling version of that character, it's not the one Lee-Romita wrote when they had her date Peter. I mean I don't think there were plans for any other, but Ditko clearly had some plan for MJ (her first pre-appearance was in Issue 25, the first issue Ditko had plotting credit on, and her last pre-appearance is near the final panels of issue 38). Ditko's MJ also owns and drives her own car, whereas when Lee-Romita took over she likes Peter for having his own bike, and she likes Harry and Flash for owning cars. So Lee saying that he once thought of Gwen as Peter's girlfriend and wife isn't much since there wasn't a lot of follow-through on his part. If he felt strongly about it, why didn't he veto the story, why didn't he have Gwen marry Peter in the newspaper?

One really awkward storyline in hindsight was the time Norman Osborn saved Gwen and Captain Stacy from the Kingpin, who was brainwashing everyone and convinced the Stacys that Peter betrayed them somehow; it's been a while since I read it so I don't remember how it played out exactly.

Mary Jane was absent from issues 65 to 82, where she was dating Harry offscreen (and got an awful new haircut, while Harry got an awful mustache).

Edited by lalalei2001 on Dec 9th 2018 at 1:18:59 AM

Basically what Slott-Quesada did with MJ and Carlie, Lee-Romita did with MJ and Gwen. Try and shill Gwen over MJ, have Peter informing readers that he feels strongly and so on for Gwen, try and make Gwen more like MJ (later issues basically have Gwen as MJ with blonde, down to same face and hair-style). It didn't work because MJ was, quite unintentionally, the more interesting character. I mean 1) she had this long buildup and being established by Aunt May as Peter's ideal girl. 2) she has this charismatic design, 3) she's poor but beautiful, independent in that she has her own apartment, dates on her own terms unlike Gwen who is this rich kid. 4) she likes Spider-Man and thinks seeing a supervillain rampage is awesome whereas Gwen even before Daddy got whacked, kept saying positive stuff about Jameson's rants.

Likewise, while everyone saw her as this shallow girl, the fact that MJ was close to Aunt May and friends with her, and a conservative-ish woman like May (as she was coded then) saw MJ as right for Peter, meant something to people back then. As Ta-Nehisi Coates pointed out, she wasn't the girl (per the norms of the time and afterwards) you bought home to mother...but Peter's mother did bring her home for him which provided Spider-Man's female and younger readers a kind of validation. It kind of threw a curve on My Girl Is Not a Slut and so on. All this was unintentional since Ditko's design of her costume was fairly conservative with the only implication being that she drove her own car (which did kind of imply someone more worldly than Peter). After MJ's charismatic appearance and so on and the creation of Peter's social circle, Lee and Romita changed gears. I have my own theories, my guess is simply that Lee in creating this 60s Party-Girl affect for MJ realized that he would have difficulty keeping writing her, so he switched to Gwen. All that slang lingo must have been hard for him after the novelty wore off...and then they had MJ get a new haircut which was basically an attempt to make her ugly. It got so many complaints that they removed it and brought her back as before. Because again she had this charisma and popularity.

Gerry Conway remmber was 19 when he wrote The Night Gwen Stacy Died. He actually belonged to Peter and MJ's real-time generation (keeping Comic-Book Time in mind). So he had a different value system, and he read from before. I mean basically Gwen Stacy is a Satellite Character to Mary Jane after Conway took over. Conway used Gwen's death to change her character and create tension in her relationship especially in the First Clone Saga.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Dec 9th 2018 at 1:34:56 AM

I found an interesting, picture-heavy post about Gwen and MJ not being as close friends as fans and later writers portrayed, and the 'Mary Jane knew Peter's secret the whole time' thing REALLY doesn't hold up at some points. It's interesting to see how people's perceptions of the same material or additions to such change over time. http://hellzyeahwebwielingessays.tumblr.com/post/103972411631/continuity-and-retcons-part-4-gwen-and-mj-in-the

Funnily enough I read that yesterday. I'd say MJ and Gwen were Vitriolic Best Buds at best. I mean the fact is that the Gwen Stacy story made her and the whole college era this mythical golden age of Innocence Lost, not only for fans and so on but for the characters In-Universe. So nobody wants to bring up that Gwen was actually once a snob who bullied Peter at ESU. Stuff like Spider-Man Blue basically manufactured an entirely new Gwen. And Gwen's ghost being between Peter and MJ adds tension to their relationship, it levels the whole "unattainabl goddess" stuff since MJ is competing with this idea of a perfect ghost, one who embodies all her angst about being poor and coming from a broken home. That part works. Harry Osborn fixated on this nostalgia and trying to go back to the good ol' days led to his death in "Best of Enemies". The idea of nostalgia being toxic was behind the entire first Clone Saga. So that myth led to a lot of good stories.

As for Parallel Lives. See my feeling about that Revision is that it works because it's a great story, the same way Alan Moore's Anatomy Lesson works, even if it has better story logic, works. It's a great story that kind of improves and complicates the earlier stories. The idea that during the entire time Peter was lost, confused, and lying all the time, someone knew and understood what he went through, it has this fable like quality to it. It works because it's well executed in Parallel Lives when MJ sees Peter outside the house or when Kurt Busiek did it in Untold Tales. It informs that incredible body language at the end of Night Gwen Stacy Died. Like MJ knew that Peter isn't grieving and angry because he lost his girlfriend but that he failed as Spider-Man. It explains why she thought taking Peter to see the Rhino works. Does it explain and make sense for everything, no it doesn't. But it sticks the landing. It explains MJ's first appearance and the Night Gwen Stacy Died. It makes her actions during the Drug Issue with Harry Osborn more sympathetic.

The thing is that entire era was filled with rewrites. I mean Lee-Romita practically retconned whole parts of the Ditko era. Norman Osborn was established as a sane, rational criminal when Ditko wrote him. He is shown warmly interacting with Harry early on. Then Romita introduces the whole Norman-is-Crazy idea and Harry is a troubled-home woobie to make his and Peter's friendship happen. Gwen goes from a fairly flawed and arrogant girl to...Barbie. And so on. Gwen's bizarre sudden personality shifts is the one that needs explanation in my view. Conway's Parallel Lives works better compared to that.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Dec 9th 2018 at 1:46:32 AM

I admit, I like that idea of Gwen and MJ as frenemies who liked the same guy, but didn't hate each other, and could even hang out together and get along well, so just settled for snarking the hell out of each other at every opportunity.

It'd make a nice comedy series actually...if not for the whole Gwen is dead thing.

Then again, that'd make the Betty and Veronica parallels way too strong I suppose.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 9th 2018 at 6:13:08 AM

Man if only it was Ditko's Gwen against Romita's MJ. That would have been amazing but then you already have that, it's Mean Girls where Regina George by the great Rachel McAdams is Ditko's Gwen, and Lindsay Lohan's Cady is kind of like MJ (well not entirely) and she hadn't burned her considerable talent yet. Ditko's Gwen had she continued would have been an awesome character. She's this proud and incredibly stuck up woman who finds Peter sexy and so acts out in this fantastically petty manner. Like sending one of her pals to see if Peter likes girls only because they are smart and he's been negging her because she's beneath him or something. Peter rejects all that.

That is far and away the best written version of Gwen Stacy. To be honest, I think George Stacy's death in terms of throwing a Spanner in the Works, in losing a great character, and overall execution, was much better than Gwen's death, which on the whole I think was relaxing for Peter even if he wouldn't admit it (owing to grief, conscience and so on). I mean the greatness of Captain Stacy's death is, this is the guy who could have solved all of Peter's problems. Had he lived, Spider-Man would have had for all time his own Commissioner Gordon, had he lived, Gwen would have come around and accepted Peter and Spider-Man both because Daddy approves. And the awful part is that...Peter learns this on George's deathbed where he approves of Peter. I mean it's the ultimate Yank the Dog's Chain, where a positive tragic moment of parental validation actually makes Peter's life entirely worse. That's what makes it amazing. Whereas when Gwen died...Peter got out of a very stressful romance where he felt guilty all the time because he couldn't tell Gwen the truth about her Dad, had no way of convincing him that he's telling the truth, knows fully well that she will react badly. Likewise he lost Goblin for a good long while, I mean there's the whole it was tense when he was alive and could go off like a bomb, but now that it's gone, and I've survived, things are less stressful. His romance with Mary Jane, a girl who likes Spider-Man, doesn't blame him for her life's problems, and actually likes Peter for what he is rather than trying to make him into someone he's not (like Betty and Gwen both tried to do) made him happier. So Gwen's death, awful as this is to admit for Peter, was actually a good thing for him.

So basically an action intended to mature Gwen Stacy basically made her unlikable and her romance with Peter incredibly awkward after she blamed Spider-Man for her dad dying despite said dad ironically approving of Peter? seems legit. i find it interesting that besides Mary Jane, No writer has ever been able to make a compelling love interest. All Quaseda could fart out was Cooper. Even Black Cat who came the closest besides Mary Jane was basically a Catwoman rip-off.

off topic, but on that blog, there was a post on Green Goblin's character and a rebuke of accusations that 1990s Gobby was a rewrite,(Which i heartily agree with) there was a section where there was an image showing Norman inviting Peter to dinner and trolling him over knowing who he really is, what issue is that? looks like it's from the silver age roughly around the time of Gwen stacy dying i think?

Back on topic, it's interesting to go back to my old Death of Gwen Stacy tradeback, and see the letters from the writers extolling how great Gwen is... but never explaining why she was so great.

And the only other lover interest besides Mary Jane who i could root for, was the Ultimate version of Kitty Pryde. Bendis was a great writer on Ultimate Spider-Man, and it was amazing to see how he managed to make those 2 characters work.

Carlie Cooper didn't have a chance because it was entirely committee driven. Brand New Day was in production and writing and so on for basically two years before Quesada dropped the final issue of OMD, and Carlie was designed by committee without audience feedback and so on. I don't hate her too much as others do because I kind of think the writers weren't doing any favors and so on.

George Stacy's death is second to Uncle Ben's alone in terms of utterly f—king up Peter's life. It's among the best stories of the Lee-Romita era and in terms of a death being tragic, ironic, sad, and also satisfying in terms of what it does to story, it's unsurpassed. You have a status-quo shift and major shake-up that felt in-character, organic, and earned and logical. George Stacy tells Peter he supports Spider-Man, approves of him dating his daughter, and he's proud of him...and that makes it worse. There's something really Freudian there. I mean obviously Gwen falls for Peter because she sees in him a miniature version of her Dad and unknown to her both Peter and her father have more in common and George likewise does, and then she blames Spider-Man for her father's death. And yet the death of the parental figure makes things harder than ever for them to be together. The Andrew Garfield movies utterly ruined this of course. Gwen Stacy is essential for Captain Stacy's death in the story far more than for her own death.

Gwen worked as a Satellite Character for others during the Lee-Romita era. Basically George Stacy was the more interesting character. And Peter's romance with Gwen worked in so far as it aided the captain's tragedy. Gwen's death is essential for Mary Jane's character. I mean MJ is the real main character in The Night Gwen Stacy Died, she's the only one with real Character Development in that story. Gwen isn't the protagonist, she's barely in it, and then she dies. And the story is really about the aftermath. Conway's run is basically about Mary Jane being Peter's future and Gwen his past. I don't think she needed to die or she had to die. Heck if I had done it, I'd have made Gwen into a tragic supervillain. Because she had some scientific smarts, she had money and wealth, and privilege and resources and she had tragic sympathetic motives about wanting revenge on Spider-Man, she could have been the James Franco Harry done right. I mean she has compelling reason to blame Spider-Man for her father's death even if its misguided...it's not like Franco where it's because his butler forgot his one job. Her becoming a female supervillain would not really be tied to gender or because she's Peter's bitter ex or anything. You could have made her into someone like Elektra (whose own death in Miller's story was inspired by Gwen IIRC). She actually does have the complex to go with it what with her daddy-fixation and attempt to make Peter into George.

Genuinely top tier potential super villain there. Though with the standards of Marvel writers, how long would Supervillain! Gwen go from tragic supervillain to bitter ex?

I agree that Captain Stacy dying was a great moment on par with Uncle Ben, but wasn't one of it's goals to mature Gwen Stacy as a character so she could match MJ as a love interest. It did mature her but made any actual potential future romance with Spider-Man awkward and it made her somewhat unlikable.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Dec 10th 2018 at 1:20:22 AM

Well I am sure that was the idea, but then a few issues with Gwen grieving in London or whatever, she was back to the same-old same-old, they even had her become a bikini model for some reason. Then you had the famous Harry Drug Trilogy with the Goblin relapsing (I think that's the issues you were discussing three posts up), #96-98...then near the end of Lee's run, you had the famous Six-Arms Saga where Morbius first shows up. Then Lee stepped down and Conway came in, and he spent his first issues finding his voice (during which time he created and introduced Hammerhead) until the Gwen Stacy death issues which basically started his Story Arc. That's a limitation of Lee-Romita in that there wasn't the sustained character development growth and progression you had in the Lee-Ditko era (which is basically like a novel in terms of consistency and growth), or in the Conway era. It was basically more episodic and so on, so even when you had good stuff like Captain Stacy's death they didn't know where to take it. Gwen still had a few bits of decent character stuff like she shouted and yelled at Aunt May during the Six-Arms Saga for smothering Peter (which was like a return from the past of the old b—chy Gwen) and then May spent several issues after that keeping away from Gwen and Peter.

You can still bring Gwen back as a supervillain. I mean Jason Todd and Bucky Barnes died and came back as badass Fallen Hero turned villains turned Anti-Hero, why can't Gwen? Why is that male sidekicks who got their bad reputation because of Frederic Wertham's homophobic screed are reinvented as badasses while women who get fridged are basically these objects of necrophiliac longing. And a returned Gwen would have a lot of supervillain material as those stupid retcons in Dead No More revealed. She got killed because of Peter sparing Norman the first time and letting him go despite knowing his identity. She would hate and despise Peter for lying to her about his secret, and you know it would be a great Take That! to the Gwen cult and nostalgia where she returns and she returns not as the ideal Gwen everyone remembers but the flawed person she was, and had every right to be.

Like think about that exchange in that Batman: Under the Red Hood cartoon and how it would work if you substituted Batman/Jason/Joker with Peter/Gwen/Norman:

I mean basically having Norman walk around after he came back already ruins the catharsis of Gwen's death. And The Pulse already had Ben Urich lampshade the absurdity of Peter letting the dude who whacked his girl breathe the same air.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:04:47 AM

Shit let’s not make the whole resurrect into a villain anymore trite than it already is especially since unlike those two, she’s not a sidekick.

Plus it wouldn’t be opening any new avenues other than just adding another person who hates Spidey.

Let some people stay fucking dead.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:06:26 AM

If this was still 1993 then I'd agree with you. Until The Clone Saga, Spider-Man was on the realistic side of the Marvel Universe. Characters who were dead stayed dead...there was no Cosmic Retcon. You had status-quo changes and stuff from one era going into the next. All that was tight and respected. Sure you had some character changes here and there and different writers wrote their takes on icons but it was all legit and on the realistic side. No attempt was made to tell us that what we read before was a lie.

Then the Clone Saga happened and suddenly guess what: Norman's back. Oh Aunt May was an actress and that beautiful classical issue farewell in #400, that was written in-character and so on...never happened, just an actress. Ben Reilly is the real Peter and all the other Peters are just imitatin' even if that by the way was a total retcon and garbage. At the end of Gerry Conway's first Clone Saga you had a logical ironclad answer that the Peter who came out was the real deal. All the clones made by Warren happened after Gwen died, the clones are all fixated on the past, on Gwen and so on, while Peter is in love with Mary Jane. How could Peter be the clone if he has Character Development, progression and as he admits no longer the same guy who fell for Gwen? Conway's first Clone Saga was about toxic nostalgia, about necrophiliac worship of dead girls, and most of all it's a love story, it's about Peter and Mary Jane finally realizing that they are crazy for each other, all of it done in Silver-To-Bronze age goofiness and Narm Charm. Miles Warren was a stand-in for toxic and salty Gwen fans. The fact that the guy advocating for Gwen's return was some creepy lecherous older professor should have made that clear.

Now suddenly Ben Reilly shows up and he's the good ol' single Peter from the past. I mean that's a complete misreading of the entire message of the first saga that Conway put out, it's a betrayal of the audience's trust (almost nobody back then doubted that the Peter who came out was the real deal) and worst of all it ruins what is still essentially a great story (Conway's first saga) with a far worse one. After OMD, you have retcons and changes again. Now Harry Osborn is alive even if him being alive rewrites a number of stories. Like Roger Stern's Revenge of the Green Goblin which is basically the Goblin's own Killing Joke (he tries to drive Peter made after extended torture) makes no sense without Harry's death. You had that awful Sins' Past story.

At this point, Gwen not coming back from the dead looks bad. I don't know why "dead means dead" gets excused for Jason, Bucky and Harry and Norman Osborn, but not her. This was part of the reason for that Oracle can now walk and is Batgirl again stuff. I mean I actually think Oracle and the wheelchair bound Barbara was probably the best thing that happened to her, it was character progression and so on, but then if you live in a series where Batman got his bat broken and came back and so on...for that to not happen to her looks bad. And the revived Batgirl series was quite good.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:24:48 AM

Because we should keep as many dead characters as we can.

The original Dove of Hawk & Dove is still dead & that’s great really.

Plus people do think some of those characters like Osborn should’t have been resurrected in the first place.

Go Down Swinging led to the death of Flash Thompson, a character who's been there since Amazing Fantasy #15. So if Gwen comes back, it's trading one iconic fixture for another. I mean Ben Reilly has come back for god's sakes. A character who had a few good stories and would have worked as Peter's Nightwing had they not tried to make him Batman and he's more redundant than he's ever been thanks to Miles Morales (who's basically Ben Reilly done right, makes sense, and is way better in every possible way).

The fact is that Spider-Man doesn't have any major female supervillains. So there's a niche there. Remember that David Michelinie wanted Venom to bond with a female host, a woman who blames Spider-Man for the loss of her husband and miscarriage, and was vetoed by the editor of the time because they didn't think women could be convincing. Black Cat worked as Spidey's partner and foil, but she's not compelling and convincing as a villain. Gwen Stacy would make a terrific and tragic supervillain. I mean anyone here seen Batman: Mask of the Phantasm that was a great example of a female supervillain who was flawed, compelling, and tragic...and Gwen could be that. Or what about the books A Song of Ice and Fire (which inspired Game of Thrones). There's a character in the books which the show Adapted Out (probably for the best given budget and stuff) called Lady Stoneheart, she's basically a female Darth Vader and is awesome as a tragic villain and anti-hero.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:44:26 AM

Oh yes more people to hate Spider-Man.

Whoop-de-do sounds like amazing potential characters.

We so already don't have enough of those.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:54:04 AM

Most people hate Spider-Man for asinine reasons, or Jameson where it's kind of Irrational Hatred. Gwen would have actually believable and sympathetic reasons to hate Spider-Man. I mean that alone makes it different, because you have real failures on a personal and moral level. Peter lied to her during their entire relationship. He pursued a relationship with her even if he knew fully well that it would never work out. He let Norman worm his way into his social circle and endangered everyone he knew with that living time bomb. That makes him culpable. I mean legally, Peter can be charged with failure to report a crime. Then there's her father's death and so on. Her Daddy told her repeatedly Spidey was a good guy and she shouldn't judge him, and then he dies because of collateral damage from a boss fight between Peter and Octopus...and then when she returns, you have the issues of Norman still being alive and Peter letting him live, and then moving on and having these series of relationships with other girls in the mean time (obviously with the Spider-Marriage gone, she wouldn't be fixated on Mary Jane particularly) which would add to her sense of betrayal.

Having said all that, let me say that reviving Gwen Stacy only works in the scenario above, where it's based on the Gwen when she was alive and the actual stuff in her character. I don't think a revived Gwen should become Peter's Love Interest or resurrect the love-triangle with MJ from the old days or any such thing. That to me is necrophilia. A character coming Back from the Dead only works well when it's traumatic and shattering nearly as much as when they died for the first time. Jean Grey's resurrection never had the same impact as her death at the end of the original Dark Phoenix Saga, and it made Cyclops this deadbeat Dad who cheats on his wife (who he shacked up with because she looks like Jean which is cruel). The Gwen Clones from earlier basically came back like the weepy, barbie she was at the moment she was dead, and that's why you knew they were clones. They're not the real person with actual baggage, feelings, shades, flaws. Whereas the revival of Red Hood and Bucky Barnes worked, or Lady Stoneheart, works because it's traumatic and upsetting.

A revived Gwen works now because thanks to Spider-Gwen, audiences now see Gwen Stacy (a version of her at any rate, with little resemblance to the first, but let's ignore that) as a hero. She's not a love interest for Peter or the fridged girl. You can't have 616 Peter romance Spider-Gwen because of the age difference and the creepiness (hence her dating Miles which I don't know, probably won't last long) and I don't Spider-Gwen fans actually are Peter/Gwen shippers so there isn't a market to resurrect Peter's romance with Gwen. And having a villainous and tragic Gwen Stacy would now contrast with the heroic light-hearted Gwen. So it could work is all I'm saying.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Dec 10th 2018 at 7:29:03 AM

Honestly, I wouldn't want this story to happen simply because I don't trust a Marvel writer with it. The Big 2 have a long history of stories where no matter how valid a character's grudge may be the writer has to do something to undercut their sympathy if what they're doing challenges the status quo or makes the hero seem uncomfortable. An example from DC is the aforementioned Under The Red Hood where Jason had to be made into an irrational villain because we can't just have someone kill off the Joker (even temporarily).

Marvel is even worse in this regard. Civilian dislike of superheroes always has to be irrational and lead to things being even worse like in Civil War and Dark Reign. Any critic of a superhero turns out to either be a villain or has some less-than-altruistic agenda. The reasons for J. Jonah Jameson's vendetta against Spider-Man have ranged from using it to sell papers to being jealous of his heroism and bravery (though I'm sure it would help Old Flattop's self-esteem a tad if he learned about the Webhead's consorting with Satan).

For Gwen, I can see Marvel having her very justified anger towards Peter and Norman overshadowed by Marvel having her cross more and more moral even horizons like attacking Aunt May or trying to kill Peter's other love interests. And if the Queenpin nonsense is any indication, Marvel cannot make the antagonistic ex-girlfriend idea work if their lives depended on it.

You know, i legitimately thought that the Gwen Stacy clone(or whatever) from dead no more, was going to go super-villain. i was honestly expecting her to snap from Peter's reaction, and additionally she was weirdly okay with reviving Goblins, sure Bart isn't Norman but still. Or later on becoming a special type of Carrion, as we all know with Dan Slott nothing is sacred to him.

On the topic of Spider-Man female supervillains, ironically the only decent one is ...Screwball. Maybe i'm still in the Ps 4 mindset, but i felt she could have been a good dark mirror to Spidey in the sense of what he would be like if he never gave up his glory hog days, and his trollish sense of humor negatively affecting people.(pretty sure one of Spidey's villains was driven more insane from repeated taunts, Scorpion i think?) I'm pretty sure all Screwball did was pull a bunch of pranks and impersonate Spidey for a reason i can't remember in the comics, so she is a standard future writers have to surpass. yikes. Remember the sheer frustration the player feels from Screwballs taunts in the Ps 4 version is how most villains feel on the receiving end of Spider-Man's jokes.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Dec 10th 2018 at 7:56:59 AM

You know, I once thought up a storyline where Gwen mysteriously wakes up in an abandoned lab in a ghost town. Slowly she meets other people...who are all copies of herself. It turns out that the Jackal thought his plans to clone Gwen always went wrong because he never made backup copies...so he made many backup clones of Gwen and kept them hidden, but when the power was disrupted, they all woke up. I'm not talking five or ten clones of Gwen, but hundreds. Soon, they are able to call Peter who calls the Avengers, but there really isn't anything to do, since the Jackal is nowhere to be found and all the Gwen clones want to do is live their lives. Some stay in the town, which they rename Stacyville, while some go out into the world to find new lives.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 10th 2018 at 8:15:55 AM

Man...the Jackal. How did that guy become a thing is beyond me? Conway made him a joke villain, he was never intended to stick around. Killed off after the end of his story. Totally forgotten until The Clone Saga. Nothing about him was ever good which worked originally because that was the Intended Audience Reaction, but now he's this villain with a horrible design and costume, a color that makes no sense (Jackals aren't green), he doesn't even look like a Jackal, and that entire concept has zero connection to him making these endless clones and fixating on a blonde co-ed in his class. He is arguably the worst designed of all Spidey villains from a character conceptual sense. Jackal II actually does make a bit more sense with that Mask design and red suit actually being closer to the colors of real jackal and now being tied to Egyptian deities makes the revival thing work...but he also kind of looks like a knock-off Ra's Al Ghul with his Demon Mask and so on, and that kind of spoils it for me. There are some revisionists for The Clone Saga lately after One More Day and so on...and I am not going to say everything about it was bad (just as not everything after OMD and Slott's run is bad) but the Clone Saga ruined Spider-Man's entire comics history. Until 1994, there was a Spider-Man with consistency with consequences and serialization. This story undid all that and the Jackal being elevated to a Spidey pantheon rogue and appearing in cartoons is part of why that thing is this great sadness for me.