Discussion YMMV / PokemonBlackAndWhite

Remember that it's "Strawman Has A Point", not "Strawman Is Completely Right About Everything". Also, if you have an argument against it, then rewrite the paragraph to better reflect it, but don't add an even longer counter-argument below it, you're just asking for a Flame War here and the page devolves into Thread Mode.

Going purely by Plasma's talking points, the fact of the matter still stands that almost noone actually has a convincing counter-argument to their talking points. The countless Kick the Dog moments and the fact that their leaders are clearly lying doesn't actually change any of that.

There's nothing Magnificent about him. He's the epitome of a Smug Snake.

At the same time, there's nothing Monstrous about him. So why is he listed as one?

...Nothing monstrous about him? Did we play the same game?

He does hit all three major points: the other characters are revolted by him once his motives and actions come to light, said actions are never presented in a good light, and if he regrets what he did, I'm a Miltank.

The guy's the nastiest Pokevillian since Cipher, and the nastiest mainline game-canon villain, full stop.

Regardless, his treatment of N makes him a saint in my eyes. I hated that little green-haired bastard, and like to imagine that Zekrom dropped him into a volcano afterwards.

Look, I don't want to talk about this anymore, okay?

Eh, whatever.

Well, when you think about it, the worst thing we actually see Ghetsis do is insult N. Still, I guess this is a perfect example of varying mileage.

... I'm sorry. When was it decided Ghetsis doesn't qualify for Complete Monster? I admit, I missed that.

^ There was a HUGE discussion on that. He was ultimately removed because he "failed the heinous standard" compared to Cyrus. Even though Cyrus had no bearing on Pokemon Black And White whatsoever.

There's nothing Magnificent about him. He's the epitome of a Smug Snake.

I'm actually in agreement here. A guy who boasts "I AM PERFECTION!" and throws a tantrum when his plans fall apart is totally a Smug Snake rather than a Magnificent Bastard.

He does hit all three major points: the other characters are revolted by him once his motives and actions come to light, said actions are never presented in a good light, and if he regrets what he did, I'm a Miltank. The guy's the nastiest Pokevillian since Cipher, and the nastiest mainline game-canon villain, full stop.

I agree with all this, but try telling this to the mods who've outlawed Ghetsis as a CM. They'll just argue about too much Offscreen Villainy and how his villainy wasn't as heinous as the previous Big Bad.

Regardless, his treatment of N makes him a saint in my eyes. I hated that little green-haired bastard

WOW. Just...WOW. Draco in Leather Pants / Ron the Death Eater much?

Well, when you think about it, the worst thing we actually see Ghetsis do is insult N.

Everything bad that happened in the first game was the outcome of his scheming. While said scheming was all off-screen and in backstory, we DO see the results of it all coming to fruition, and then we see him not only want to eliminate the player character, but expresses that he longs to see him/her break in despair and lose all hope. What tops it off isn't just that he insults N, but he insults him after revealing how he raised him up to be what he is now, which means he's insulting his "son" for being exactly what his whole plan hinged on him being. Hypocrite.

Except it IS possible to be both a Complete Monster and a Magnificent Bastard at the same time.

Fucking necrobumping.

It doesn't matter since the Long-Term CM clean-up thread declared him to not be a CM.

He very well can and is still be considered a "complete monster" by fans without actually being an example of the CM trope on the wiki, though. At least everyone seems to agree he's a colossal dick who's living over on the other side of the Moral Event Horizon.

I don't get it either. It seems like just an excuse to rail against Best Wishes for it's "flaws" (read: decisions it made that fans didn't like). Cut it.

^ It IS overkill, yes. But on the flip side, removing all Complete Monster refrences to him (even on Sugar Wiki!) because he's apparently "officially not a CM" is pretty extreme too. There were, and are still, many fans who see Ghetsis as THE Complete Monster of Pokemon, and for YMMV, that should at least be made known even if the wiki itself doesn't agree to call Ghetsis a definite Complete Monster. Opinions matter on this site, don't they?

So from what i've collected, the whole reason Ghetsis isn't a Complete Monster is because it's proven that N isn't his real son? Because that's what i'm getting here.

No, that's not it at all. Even if N ISN'T his real son, he's his adopted child, and treating him the way Ghetsis did is unarguably wrong. The reason Ghetsis isn't considered a CM anymore is because he's apparently "small potatoes" and his world domination schemes, plus all the despicable actions he took in the name of it, isn't heinous enough when compared to other villains. Nevermind the whole thing about scale and opportunity, since Ghetsis does make the most of what he's got and is the worst he can possibly be. But the site managers aren't changing their mind about this.

Had I gotten Ghetsis to be seriously considered for the trope, this would be my writeup:

• Complete Monster: Ghetsis Harmonia is the leader of Team Plasma who is responsible for all the evil committed by the team. Appearing to be a courteous and well meaning individual who seeks to liberate Pokemon from trainers, he is in truth a sadistic, self serving, narcissistic sociopath who seeks to disarm all trainers and exploit the power Pokemon possess so that he can become ruler of the world, with him and his Team Plasma as the only ones able to use Pokemon. To accomplish this, he raised his adopted son N in an isolated environment and groomed him to be The Hero of legend by conditioning his mind with a false view of the reality of humans and Pokemon, making him believe his Pokemon friends needed to be freed from the captivity of trainers, but Ghetsis actually planned to enslave all Pokemon for himself. When his plans to get all of Unova's Pokemon released fail, Ghetsis coldly disowns N, calling him a warped, defective "freak without a human heart", and threatens to kill the Player Character for knowing the truth of his ambitions. Two years later, Ghetsis captures the legendary Kyruem and has it tortured inside a power amplifying and extracting device so he can use it's freezing power as a destructive Freeze Ray to devastate half of Unova, including a populated Opelucid City, endangering countless lives. Ghetsis attempts to raise Kyurem's power to maximum so he could put the entire continent on ice in order to extort total control from it's leaders, and when the Kid Hero tries to stop him, he orders Kyurem to attack them directly while they're defenseless in order to freeze them solid. When N intervenes, Ghetsis uses the DNA Splicers to force Kyurem into a fusion with N's legendary Dragon Pokemon. After Ghetsis is defeated a second time, N offers his father a chance to repent, but Ghetsis turns it down by verbally tearing N down some more. Shamelessly admitting to loving watching people lose all hope and repeatedly treating others as merely tools for his use, Ghetsis proved himself a dangerous and thoroughly wicked individual who saw no lines he couldn't cross on his path to global domination.

A New Man: That is a point that should have been made in the project thread. Making a passive aggressive attack on another troper because you disagree with the decision is also not something we are required to tolerate.

What's the project thread? And I apologize if anything I said was a passive aggressive attack on anyone.

The project thread is here.

I can't make this point on the project thread because right there on the first page, Ghetsis is in the "Never Again" list, meaning that it's a case that's been closed forever, the wiki does not think he qualifies, he is not to be reconsidered and he should never be discussed on that thread again - hence, NEVER AGAIN. So I won't attack any more tropers or the wiki, I won't ever not think of Ghetsis as a Complete Monster despite what the wiki tells me, and I won't ever bring him up on the project thread because it's against the rules to do so.

Oh, apparently there are still some references to Ghetsis being thought of as a Complete Monster. In the Love to Hate entry on him and the Fan-Disliked Explanation entry for the sequels' YMMV. Go figure.

Are memes really YMMV material? I've always wondered that. It should not be subjective at all what's a meme and what isn't.

Memetic Mutation is an Audience Reaction, though.