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dcuvek
topic
06:57:34 PM Feb 25th 2013
Wait, did we get right of the races page? Why? It was good.
lrrose
08:05:00 PM Feb 25th 2013
It's being discussed here.
shade6116
topic
01:54:21 PM Feb 25th 2013
I know the turians are partly Roman, but what makes them partly Prussian?
Fortyfourfores
topic
01:27:28 PM Nov 2nd 2012
Summarizing Krogans as "Space Blacks"

From first play of ME 1, there seemed to me to be a clear connection between the history of the Krogans and the history of different Black ethnicities, especially African Americans:

Used for strong physical nature by fairly racist Salarian scientists, who then condescendingly refer to the process as "uplifting" and not exploitation.

Employment as frontline fighters against terrifying and misunderstood enemy mirrors disproportionate number of AA soldiers in Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan

Scary Black Man's encroachment on Council Space leads to de-facto white flight and the use of Tuskegee like experimental agents to stem growth of population.

Resulting marginalization leads to social Darwinist mindset typified by shortsightedness and might makes right attitude visible in Ghetto, USA. (Take Wrex's speech about Krogan Engineers and scientists and replace "mercenary" and "bodyguard" with "rapper" and "athlete" and poof you have my Aunts and Uncles.

Unfortunate implications regarding rage and penchant for self-destruction but complimentary in that many Krogan are extremely eloquent(Grunt) or pensive and thoughtful(Wrex) despite stereotypes.

Also now Wrex doubles as Black Best Friend.

Feel like there's something there, but don't have the perfect trope to pin this under ala "Space Jews," for Quarian.

Zaptech
03:56:41 PM Feb 20th 2013
No. No, just....no. There is some extreme generalization going on here to even make this work even vaguely. Most of this can be applied to any vaguely oppressed culture/ethnicity/religion in history. Square Peg Round Trope, except we don't even have a trope to jam this into.
DynamicDragon
topic
04:30:24 AM May 7th 2012
Why are so many subpages locked? Moreover, what can be done to unlock them?
Telcontar
moderator
06:00:48 AM May 7th 2012
There's one person who goes around and takes out anything bad related to ME, in particular ME 3's ending. Until he stops making sockpuppets, they have to stay locked.
BioYuGi
topic
03:19:13 PM Dec 22nd 2011
The Awesome Moments page is a mess. I'm going to take it upon myself to do some editing on it. Cut down natter, remove duplicate entries, get rid of un-awesome entries, maybe sort it by character or something like that. It's getting especially ridiculous with all the moments listed for ME 3 which isn't even out yet. I don't know hoe to do a Trope Repair Session but the awesome moments should be split into pages for each game.
Vanguard1505
topic
03:08:13 AM Nov 22nd 2011
Why is Mass Effect labelled on the front page as "was, originally, a space opera RPG/Third Person Shooter"? I'm pretty sure it still is. And if it isn't, -what- is it?
JBK405
08:31:37 AM Nov 22nd 2011
It has since expanded into many different forms of media. Comics, novels, non-Third person Shooter video games (for the iPhone), etc. ''Mass Effect" is now a broad range of stuff.
Captainhook
topic
05:10:17 PM Oct 13th 2011
edited by Captainhook
Saren... you magnificent bosh'tet, I read your CODEX!
TeraChimera
topic
08:28:45 PM Apr 29th 2011
edited by TeraChimera
Why was this page shifted from the "Main" namespace to the "Video Game" namespace? Calling it "Video Game: Mass Effect" can create confusion with the first game, not to mention that the Expanded Universe novels also appear here.

EDIT: Okay, I saw the namespace policy, but then shouldn't this page be "Series: Mass Effect" and the first game be "Video Game: Mass Effect"?
Aryn2382
02:41:11 PM Jul 23rd 2011
It probably should be series, as it isn't just Video Games.
Grobi
03:10:17 PM Jul 23rd 2011
No, "series" is used for Live-Action TV. This should be Main.Mass Effect, the rest should be changed to Videogame.Mass Effect 1, Videogame.Mass Effect 2 and so on.
Aryn2382
06:56:09 AM Jul 24th 2011
Yeah, that'd make more sense. Herp.
Tahaneira
topic
09:21:14 PM Jan 23rd 2011
Thinkin' about reorganizing the page a bit. All the unmarked sub-pages are getting a little hard to follow. So I'm thinking of making a list of all the games, books, comics, and character pages above the trope listing.
Falco
02:25:02 AM Sep 26th 2011
This is good. How about making this page an index for all of these too?
Tahaneira
topic
01:43:39 PM Dec 7th 2010
Why's the page unlocked? I was under the impression it was going to have to be split first to avoid wiki crashage.
Dorkus
05:05:45 PM Dec 7th 2010
Maybe because Mass Effect's already split into this page along with seperate pages for the other two games?
Tahaneira
07:02:33 PM Dec 7th 2010
No, because of this. I'm just confused.
71.179.248.42
topic
11:36:41 AM Nov 18th 2010
edited by 71.179.248.42
I can't be the only one who noticed that the Quarians are basically Expies of the Eldar from Warhammer 40k.
witchdoctor
08:45:16 PM Nov 20th 2010
Unless they start trying to sacrifice an entire planet to save a few 100 of their own I'm going to have to say no, they're not.
KainLupus
03:40:57 PM Nov 21st 2010
I was gonna say, what the fuck are you talking about?
LitleWiggle
07:07:12 AM Apr 1st 2013
Until it's revealed the quarians knew the geth would rebel but ignored their future seeing psychics to continue with their decadent life styles resulting in the destruction of their species, no.

Until they all natually have biotics, no. Until there's a subsection of EEEEEVVVVIIILLL quarians, no.
helterskelter
topic
01:36:53 PM Sep 24th 2010
edited by helterskelter
I'm going to remove the TM in the top quote...it's rather jarring and I don't see it being very funny. If it were, say, Transformers, I'd get it as kind of an in-joker, but a Title Drop doesn't need a TM mark.

Am I missing something? I sort of feel like I am.

EDIT: To clarify, I understand that you see it in the title screen, but it just seems, I don't know, sarcastic.
Peteman
topic
04:02:01 PM Sep 12th 2010
Where is it stated that the Council will revoke Spectre status when they outlive their usefulness. As far as I know, the only time a Spectre loses their Spectre status is when they die (fairly obvious), or commit high treason (like what Saren did).
RedViking
04:18:21 PM Sep 12th 2010
You're referring to the Vigilante Man entry, right? Thanks for pointing that out. It's wrong not only for that, but also because Spectres are legally allowed to do whatever they want. The only time a Spectre goes after another Spectre is if one of them goes rogue, not because the Council decides willy-nilly.
69.120.103.48
topic
06:42:56 PM Sep 3rd 2010
Uh, what happened to the Heartwarming page? It seems to have disappeared.
Reflextion
04:49:34 AM Sep 4th 2010
edited by Reflextion
The button on the top of the page goes to Heartwarming.Mass Effect, while the namespace that's used is HeartwarmingMoment.Mass Effect. The same thing seems to have happened with other pages with a CMOH namespace.

EDIT: Never mind, looks like it's been fixed now.
joeyjojo
topic
01:16:28 AM Jun 20th 2010
Tahaneira
topic
08:46:29 AM Jun 17th 2010
Okay, I think this page has gotten so long it's refusing to let anyone add anything to it. If someone who is more experienced in this place could confirm, then we need to start splitting now. Medicus, I know you're in the process of making a nice and tidy split. So what I'm going to do is take the already-existing Mass Effect 2 page and start dumping relevant tropes onto it. When the final product is complete, just delete what I've been doing and replace it with your stuff.
KingZeal
09:01:37 AM Jun 17th 2010
I'll help. Just tell me what I need to do.
Tahaneira
09:18:26 AM Jun 17th 2010
Kay, I've got class so I just had time to move the A's. Bascially, just open up the Mass Effect 2 page and the main page, find any tropes that apply ONLY to 2 and move them off of this page and onto that one. Just copy and paste verbatim, we can worry about cleaning them up later. After all the 2-specific tropes have been moved, we can do the same things to the ones that apply to 1. But tropes present in both games or that apply to the setting in general stay.
Medicus
04:46:15 PM Jun 17th 2010
I've got up to the T's, so anything after that is open slather. I'll dump what I already have onto the page now.
Medicus
04:52:10 PM Jun 17th 2010
....and creating the page for Mass Effect 1.
silver1881
05:01:50 PM Jun 17th 2010
Instead of having a Mass Effect 1 page, should we just leave it as Mass Effect, since that's what it's technically called and it's already set up? We can keep it as is, and just link to the Mass Effect 2 page in the introduction.
Medicus
05:17:01 PM Jun 17th 2010
edited by Medicus
No, what I was going to do was leave the main page as a "hub" with the tropes common to both games and the EU, and have dedicated pages for the games. It's already up, so...
silver1881
06:31:49 PM Jun 17th 2010
I see, that makes sense.
Medicus
06:36:11 PM Jun 17th 2010
I suppose you could just rename pages, people are going to get confused between "Mass Effect" applying to both one of the games and the hub page. Maybe the hub page is "Mass Effect Series" and the game is just "Mass Effect"? Though I don't have the power to do that...
silver1881
06:41:53 PM Jun 17th 2010
No, what you said makes perfect sense. I didn't realize the hub part.
Medicus
03:14:38 AM Jun 18th 2010
It's done. Still needs a lot of work, but it's done.

Also, does anyone know where these go?

  • Bioware's own [1] did have a Playstation 3 release, but even though Mass Effect 2 is published by EA, that game probably won't, because the first game was published by Microsoft Game Studios and was an Xbox 360-exclusive title for about half a year.

  • YOUR SPECIES HAS THE ATTENTION OF THOSE INFINITELY YOUR GREATER. THAT WHICH YOU KNOW AS REAPERS ARE YOUR SALVATION THROUGH DESTRUCTION.

  • Also done slightly more subtly, when the arrangement of dialogue choices (which are laid out on the spokes of a wheel, not as straight rows) places the nicer/peaceful options on the top spokes and the meaner/belligerent options on the bottom.

    • That doesn't really seem like a case of rape, more like a case of "we're going to slaughter you and all your loved ones and use your bodies as raw material to synthesize more of us." And that's only true if all Reapers are "born" (made) the same way that the Collectors' Human-Reaper in Mass Effect 2 was.

  • Quoth this one on Tali's recruitment mission: "Ah, crap, a Colossus. Well, still at long range, just started the fight, let's see what kind of damage this thing can OH MY GOD I JUST ONESHOTTED A COLOSSUS BY ACCIDENT. Where'd all my heavy ammo go?"

  • The Sentinel's Tech Armor: Bonus defense? Check. Boost to powers damage? Check. Boost to power recharge times? Check. Reasonably fast cool-down rate? Check. The fact that it goes nova on your enemies when it goes down? This thing is practically a Disc One Nuke and an Infinity+1 Sword all on its own. It borders on Game Breaker, and it's got this sweet Power Glows thing going on to boot!
Reflextion
06:14:12 AM Jun 18th 2010
edited by Reflextion
One question: With the Character Sheet, CMoA, CMoF, WMG, and other pages, should those be split to separate pages for ME1 and 2 as well, or should I (or anyone who beats me to it :p) make redirects for those so that we get the appropriate icons on the top row?
Tahaneira
10:24:27 AM Jun 18th 2010
Only if they reach critical mass. Otherwise, I think we should just put in a note directing people to the hub page.
Medicus
07:11:56 PM Jun 18th 2010
The JBM page for ME 2 is on the ME 2 page, so the one for ME 1 should be on the ME 1 page.
KrisMahai
topic
09:35:47 AM Jun 15th 2010
There's recently been discussion about cutting Troper Tales pages of works. This game has been brought up for deletion of the Troper Tales page.

Link to discussion in Trope Repair Shop is here.
WildKnight
topic
11:32:00 PM Jun 2nd 2010
...So whatever happened to that talk of splitting the page? I think this may be one of the single largest work pages on the wiki. Heck, if Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 can have different pages...
Medicus
12:25:15 AM Jun 3rd 2010
Probably waiting until it reaches the point where it has to be split, like the Just Bugs Me pages.
168.156.194.4
08:11:27 AM Jun 3rd 2010
Medicus
02:22:02 AM Jun 6th 2010
Well, the page is officially too long now.

I think the current page should be kept as a hub, with the tropes that appear in both games kept there. New, separate pages for the two games, and a third for the other canon (the novels, Redemption, Galaxy). Keep the WMG, Character, Fan Fic Recs, nightmare fuel and Troper Tales linked to the hub, and split the crowning moment and JBM pages to their respective games.
Sandor
06:26:16 AM Jun 7th 2010
I proposed something along this line a while back and things haven't changed much despite the clean up, so yeah, backing this.
Medicus
09:43:54 PM Jun 7th 2010
I'm in the process of splitting the main article down the line I proposed, on my own computer in Word. It's *one hundred and thirty pages*. I'll be a while.
Tahaneira
12:19:57 AM Jun 8th 2010
Kay. I'll hold off on the entry pimping until you do and keep track of updates.
68.55.9.68
topic
09:36:29 AM Jun 2nd 2010
I've been wondering this for a while, but in ME 2, sometimes instead of having a paragon, neutral, and renegade option in a dialogue tree, you will only get two: One in the middle and one above or below it. I've always wondered if this means it is a choice between a neutral and a paragon/renegade choice, or a choice between a paragon and renegade choice. Does anyone know this?
Alhazred
03:25:11 PM Jun 2nd 2010
It's between neutral and paragon/renegade.
Medicus
03:28:58 PM Jun 2nd 2010
Top one is Paragon, bottom one is Renegade.
Medicus
03:30:14 PM Jun 2nd 2010
It varies, I guess, though from what I remember it's usually Paragon/Renegade.
69.251.92.84
04:05:15 PM Jun 3rd 2010
Interesting. It was confusing because sometimes it was the top two and sometimes the bottom two, so I always assumed whichever was at the bottom was renegade and reverse for paragon; but then I wodner why they didnt just change how that certain tree looks for that one choice. Although, sometimes when there is an "Investigate" option and three choices, sometimes a choice made in talking about an investigation temporarily removes one of the conversation choices, (one of the top or bottom ones). Carrying this logic to times when it only displays two, I would think it is a paragon/renegade and neutral decision. Since it doesn't always give you points for every conversation, it's hard to tell otherwise.
68.55.9.68
08:38:20 PM Jun 7th 2010
Just did some tests in my game with vaious conversations where I knew there were dialogue options with only two choices. Long story short, it is between paragon/renegade, and the fact that one occupies the middle space doesn't matter.
69.136.6.22
topic
09:02:42 PM May 23rd 2010
Just had a moment I felt was trope worthy, but not quite sure how exactly. With the Kasumi - Stolen Memory DLC you get a new casual outfit. With male Shepard its a suit, with female Shepard its a dress. Well in my play through with my female Shepard I was talking to Garrus and she went through the "sit on the container" animation, with the dress on. When she sits though she spreads her legs and there is a giant void... this is funny as hell to me, but I have no idea how it fits into the tropes. So... suggestions?
suedenim
03:42:07 AM May 24th 2010
I think that might be tropeable, it's something I've seen before... "Skirt Geometry," maybe? I seem to recall seeing something like that in the old Star Wars Galaxies MMO with certain "sitting" character emotes.
69.136.6.22
09:23:31 PM May 26th 2010
I didn't find a "Skirt Geometry" trope page, the closest so far is Magic Skirt... but that doesn't fit quite right.
suedenim
03:14:15 AM May 27th 2010
I created a Skirting Geometry YKTTW - it does seem like there are some other good examples.
Mishi
topic
07:21:34 AM Apr 26th 2010
edited by Mishi
Got a couple of 'Just Bugs Me' points, but I can't seem to create a new folder.

Also, I think one of my questions might just be something I personally missed. I don't want to ask a question that was answered in the actual game.
Tahaneira
topic
02:02:15 PM Apr 9th 2010
edited by Tahaneira
Mkay, the whole sub-page link thing is starting to reach epic proportions. The reason why we aren't listing all the subpages in the intro to the article itself is because there are so many; I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two more added over time. It's a long, unwieldy list, and most of that stuff is already up there. Below the search bar, all those little icons link to most of the subpages; since you can just navigate to them that way, there's no real reason to put them in the article itself. However, Crowning Moment of Heartwarming and Crowning Music of Awesome do not, for some reason, have their own links/icons/thingies. Why, I have no idea, I'm still a n00b here. However, since those two don't have their own place there, they have to be linked to in the article itself. The other pages do have icons, so links for them aren't required.
WildKnight
02:12:10 PM Apr 9th 2010
And to head off the "but other pages have them in the article intro and the sub-bar" idea, I'd like to reiterate the fact that the article is long enough as it is. It's a tiny little trim to make, but every little bit counts, especially when the page is this darn long.

It seems like for the most part, it's different people putting the list back in each time, though.

...and really, tropers, of all the things to start edit wars over, this? *facepalm*
DamselofDistress
02:16:08 PM Apr 9th 2010
edited by DamselofDistress
Agreed. Listing each link, except for heartwarming/music, is completely superfluous.

But yeah, we do seem to have some very silly edit wars on this page.
RedViking
03:43:55 PM Apr 9th 2010
I agree as well. I am, however, curious as to why the sub bar icons for heartwarming and music aren't showing up.
DamselofDistress
03:55:55 PM Apr 9th 2010
I don't think they've been coded into the wiki yet.
Tahaneira
04:08:26 PM Apr 9th 2010
Also, just for the record, same deal with Tear Jerker as for Heartwarming and Music.

...

As soon as I can edit the page again. :D
Tahaneira
10:43:47 AM Apr 11th 2010
Aaaaaaaaaaand now the Crowning Moment of Funny icon is gone. Is there a data termite with the munchies for icons on this site or something?
Haesslich
04:26:11 PM Apr 11th 2010
Link still present, but the icon itself is gone. Again.
168.156.194.1
10:18:17 AM Apr 14th 2010
Back now. Yaaaaaaay. Funny = off the list.
SkarmoryThePG
topic
03:49:09 AM Mar 25th 2010
Aiiee what happened to the page? Now it's all huge and ugly!
Discar
topic
11:49:09 AM Mar 21st 2010
Discar: Where the $%&* did the It Just Bugs Me! page go? As far as I can tell, the whole thing got deleted. I only have access to one computer, so maybe it's just me, but...what?
biznizz
05:06:39 PM Mar 21st 2010
....WOW. The WHOLE thing is gone. Jeez...

Umm.. someone try an archive search engine to find a copy of the page before it was deleted, or something.
Discar
05:44:53 PM Mar 21st 2010
edited by Discar
Well, somebody found most of the text, but for some reason the folders and so on didn't show up. I can't find anything better, but I'm not gonna try and fix that mess by hand. Hopefully someone who knows the system better will figure it out. EDIT: Took a closer look, and it turns out it's a relatively old version, with some of the newer topics (and presumably, more info on the older ones) missing. So...yeah.
Haesslich
05:48:54 PM Mar 21st 2010
That was me who found the text. I edited what folders I could, but had to give up after 20 pages of it or so. God DAMN that was a bitch.
Ferrard
topic
11:36:43 PM Mar 18th 2010
@ Red Viking: I'm not sure I agree with a lot of the things you deleted for being "character tropes". Airvent Escape refers to a bit of the gameplay that coincidentally was lampshaded by Joker, the Airvent Escape didn't define part of Joker's character.

Mostly it's that a lot of these tropes apply more to the gameplay or the game experience than to characters. Anything I've mentioned a specific line for means the rest of it I agree should be deleted/moved to the character page.

I don't have concrete reasons for every removal I disagree with, but just for the record, these are they:

Obviously, I'm barely one-third of the way through that huge list, but it's 1:30 here in Texas, and I have work in the morning. To sum things up, you painted a LOOOOOOOT of stuff with an enormous paintbrush, and there's a lot of stuff that doesn't need to be moved to character pages.

Now that I think of it, a lot of the stuff I disagreed with described stuff the player could do that was an experience for the player, and not Shepard.

Anyways - please don't take this personally; I disagree with your definition of "Character Trope" is all. There are just as many deletions that I wholeheartedly agree need to be relegated to the character page.
RedViking
10:38:02 AM Mar 19th 2010
edited by RedViking
Thanks for replying. And yes, Ferrard, you are correct that I painted with a large brush. That was intentional on my part and I did so knowing some people would disagree with my decision.

I did so because the Mass Effect entry is so long (over 60 pages in Word!) that there's been talk on the forums of splitting the main page into separate parts to deal with the tropes from each game.

In addition, about 3/4th of the above list are tropes that already exist on the Character page. Maybe if the main page were smaller in size, I wouldn't feel so gung-ho about it, but I feel that it's bloated enough without duplicate entries. Like I said, I deleted 14 pages worth of material and that hardly put a dent into its sheer length. That's why I deleted/modified tropes like Ensemble Darkhorse to something more general. The only reason I left the Kal'Reegar entry in is because he's not on the Character page...yet.

Things like And Now for Someone Completely Different and Airvent Escape are gameplay experiences, yes, but they happen only (so far) once during the entire series and they apply only to Joker. It's not like the game constantly has you crawling through airducts as a core gameplay mechanic.

That said, thanks for the feedback and, don't worry, I didn't take it personally. Like I said, I knew that some people wouldn't agree with me. I'd be more than happy to continue this discussion and I won't object to any reversal decisions if there's group consensus.
biznizz
topic
01:51:31 AM Mar 11th 2010
edited by biznizz
Does the Human-Reaper Larva really count as an Anti-Climax Boss? Sure, all you have to do is shoot it... but isn't that what we did with Saren-Husk at the end of the first?
Alhazred
02:17:07 AM Mar 11th 2010
It's not a challenge, is the thing. Unless you Guide Dang It or aren't on your first playthrough and know how to gear up specifically to abuse the first game's final boss, it provides much more of a challenge and much more of a psychological attack with the way it quickly darts everywhere when most of the game's enemies are walking around on the ground, firing entire salvos of rockets at you when entire fights elsewhere go by with maybe one being shot at you the entire time. The final boss of the second game is backed up by mooks that its own super attack often kills, and blatantly telegraphs all of its own attacks, giving you plenty of time to find cover. In story, it's important for how much a thing that shouldn't exist is and scary as all hell on account of what it is and how big it is, but the gameplay is extremely relaxed and not very tense.
KingZeal
07:35:32 AM Mar 11th 2010
Wouldn't player mileage vary? This troper was killed more times during that battle on Insanity than he ever was by a Praetorian. Also, most examples of ACB are marked by a deliberate design element that negates challenge, regardless of player skill. It's impossible to lose the final battles of Soul Reaver 2, Final Fantasy X, and Tales of the Abyss, for example.
Ferrard
12:47:27 PM Mar 11th 2010
I would agree with King Zeal that this is a YMMV moment. While it is laughably easy for any experienced 3rd-person cover-based-shooter player, the boss still is dangerous to anyone who isn't. Plus, Insanity Mode.

That said, yes, Uber-Husk Saren was a devilishly difficult fight simply because he was so damn fast. Human-Reaper not so much unless it has even MORE durability like on Insanity. I'd call this a Minor ACB, with a YMMV caveat for players new to 3rd-person cover-based shooters or Insanity Mode.
RedViking
03:23:12 PM Mar 11th 2010
To be fair, Insanity mode turns everything into Demonic Spiders.
Alhazred
06:43:15 PM Mar 14th 2010
Is YMMV really a valid reason for this? YMMV on everything, after all, and if YMMV on the final boss of the entire game because you don't usually play shooters, it should just mean you have more trouble with the entire game than someone who plays the genre regularly; the final boss would still be easier relative to the rest of the game.
KingZeal
07:13:53 PM Mar 14th 2010
Again, I ask... How would you determine that? The final boss is no more or less difficult than the average battle in the game. If we're including games with averagely-difficult final battles, rather than INTENTIONALLY rigged ones, there are more games that WOULD have an ACB than those that wouldn't.
WildKnight
07:26:39 PM Mar 14th 2010
I'd like to point out that Anticlimax Boss has been rejiggered to include bosses that are built up dramatically and gameplay-wise, but turn out to be more bark than bite — the anti-Climax Boss, if you will. I do believe that applies to this game's final boss - it is built up to be ridiculously scary and powerful, but gameplay-wise it's not difficult at all. Insanity doesn't make it not count because that makes everything ridiculously powerful, and Alhazred's right in that if you're not good at third-person shooters, you're going to have trouble with the whole game, not just the final boss.
Alhazred
07:26:41 PM Mar 14th 2010
I said it higher up, but I'll elaborate; the final boss' own attack kills the mooks that constantly fly in, ostensibly to back it up, including Harbinger, who drops heavy weapons ammo. If you're carrying the Cain, you can easily beat the boss by simply letting it kill the Collectors and picking up the ammo until you've got enough to fire the second, killing shot without ever firing a normal gun. Its own attacks can be seen queuing up for an extended length of time; telegraphing attacks isn't something other enemies in the game do. Contrast this with the gunships, one of which drops mooks but doesn't kill them with friendly fire, nor do they visibly charge up before firing rockets at you. Contrast with Praetorians who have no charge-up animation for either of their very damaging attacks. Compare with Saren, who spammed the first game's most damaging but least common enemy attacks at you with no warning.

Given the way the mechanics work, the final boss is objectively easier than the rest of the game. Whether it was intentional or they did it because "oooooo hey it'll be cinematic if the giant metal skeleton rears back or starts glowing ominously" or because they wanted it to be easier is anyone's guess, but it is.

(Yes, I'm aware that someone in this thread said they had an easier time against Preatorians; as with everything ever, it's not a set-in-stone rule. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, it doesn't change the observable way in which the mechanics in question work.)
RedViking
12:20:47 AM Mar 15th 2010
edited by RedViking
I think it's mileage may very because don't all fights become insanely easy once you learn the trick to them or if you use the most optimal skill set/equipment? The Cain trivializes everything and would be a Game Breaker if not for the high ammo cost. There's even a glitch that lets you fire that second shot for free if you pull it off. As for telegraphing, the Scions and Preatorians do that when they're about to do their area shockwave attack.

The final battle with Saren was easy if you brought Liara or were an Adept because he was still vulnerable to singularity. The thresher maws could be reduced to xp pinatas if you maintained a certain distance in the Mako that would keep them from submerging and/or had the Bastion class and Stasis skills maxed. Even Preatorian fights can still be trivialized if you, for example, kite it around and line of site it while your squad whittles away at its defenses.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the danger of that fight on higher difficulties not so much from the boss itself, but killing it before Harbinger and the Collectors overwhelm you? That's still all part of the encounter, isn't it?
gfrequency
07:14:48 AM Mar 15th 2010
On another note, is Matriarch Benezia really That One Boss? I never once had a lick of trouble with her. She's not even challenging, let alone frustrating.
KingZeal
12:14:16 PM Mar 15th 2010
In that case, I understand. Just as with the Praetorian, I can see why it's hard, even if I have no trouble. The final boss being an ACB, however? It was never hyped as dangerous...and he'll, the protagonists didn't even k ow it existed until the last second. I agree that it hurts itself by killing the Collectors, but Harbinger is quite effective at killing your team.
Alhazred
04:41:42 AM Mar 16th 2010
What does "hype" have to do with anything? How do you define hype in this context? The traditional definition of the developers/marketing hyping it makes no sense, since most final bosses don't get hyped; you'd have to delete almost the entire ACB article. In-game set up? I'd say the main characters not knowing about it until the last second is irrelevant, considering it's a giant metal skeleton dominating half the room and the dialog is all about how the villains kill what we think of as normal life so they can convert it into their own. I'd say that's plenty of hype to make you scared of the thing. Considering the number of entries about it where the name is put in italics for emphasis on how insane it is plot-wise and the fact that it's under Nightmare Fuel, I'd say these things have the desired effect on most players who see this article. It is, again, far less of a challenge than its importance to the plot would imply.
KingZeal
08:14:22 AM Mar 16th 2010
I was replying to Wild Knight's above comment. He stated that ACB is referred to as any final boss that is presented as powerful or threatening and turns out to be anything but. There was no such push for this boss, and in fact, it's pretty much stated to be an unfinished embryo.

Alhazred
01:21:48 AM Mar 19th 2010
...well, I wish I'd noticed that, then. Sorry for the redundant wall of text.
WildKnight
01:41:45 AM Mar 19th 2010
What, the ominous dramatic swelling music when Shepard says "A human Reaper" isn't threatening? :P

In all seriousness, I apologize for the misunderstanding - "powerful" doesn't necessarily have to mean Its Level Is Over Nine Thousand. It could also refer to story impact. Given, again, the ominous dramatic music when you first see the thing and all the dialogue about the thing being the culmination of the Collectors' plans and the fact that it's a giant quarter-formed Terminator, it's much less difficult than the buildup implies.
biznizz
04:14:16 AM Mar 19th 2010
edited by biznizz
So a "giant quarter-formed Terminator" isn't scary? Even when you realize that it's being made from thousands of melted humans and isn't anywhere near being done? I guess Saren-Husk's on-screen melting spoiled too many peoples' tastes.

Look, I still say that Human-Reaper-Larva isn't an ACB. It still puts up at least some form of challenge, even if the player can still beat it without dying. What the spirit of the Anticlimax Boss is that the boss is so easy to kill, it may as well not have even been a boss fight.

A better example of ACB would be: Shepard and crew make it to the Collector control room to kill the Collector General and to blow up/EMP the base. The C.G. then gives the "You are no match for me" speech and the fight starts. Shepard shoots one bullet or punches the C.G. once, and the fight ends. Cue the This Cannot Be!, C.G. dies, and so on.

And as King Zeal said, there is no comment in the game that the H.R.L. is super-powerful, only that it needs to be destroyed. So can we please delete the Anticlimax Boss from the main page?

Alhazred
topic
07:25:23 PM Mar 10th 2010
Uh, right, so, the edit war going on over the poor innocent !s. Can we get a consensus on this before someone jumps to the forum for divine mod intervention?

I'm inclined to let the !s roam free, myself. It's not just a "livejournal thing," it's how the fandom in general tends to go about it. The editor who keeps trying to nuke it seems to have a personal vendetta against fandom and fandom socializing as motivation while somehow being completely ignorant of how large a part fandom plays in these articles.
WildKnight
07:38:40 PM Mar 10th 2010
edited by WildKnight
I...honestly don't think they're worth the effort either way. I won't go out of my way to put them back in...but neither would I go out of my way to take them out. Laissez-faire, as it were. I do think the fellow removing them has quite the chip on his shoulder.

Mostly, my thought is "really? Starting an edit war over some lousy punctuation marks? Really?" Then again, I guess there have been stupider arguments on TV Tropes...

biznizz
08:14:09 PM Mar 10th 2010
edited by biznizz
This sounds like a stupid troll. I don't mind the X!Y thing personally. It helps when talking about Male/Female and Paragon/Renagade.

But seriously, an "!" hunt. REALLY? Wow, some people just have no fucking life, do they?

Edit: I'm gonna restore them. Unless someone uses a Pot Hole to fix them so they are unique, I don't see any reason to just keep them like that. At least the "!" makes it more noticeable that Shepard is near fully customizable and thus has different experiences.
WildKnight
08:49:15 PM Mar 10th 2010
"reason: Oh look, the stupid part of the ME community has arrived, comprimising this page's quality with their incomprehensible writing conventions. What's next, a fanfiction subpage?"

...Alrighty, I'm not even involved in this, and that makes me want to punch him in the face.

And dude: there IS a fanfiction subpage.

It's clear this dude's not here to make any friends. Shall we Ask The Tropers?
Alhazred
09:38:19 PM Mar 10th 2010
Just to clarify: I don't think it's a big deal either, but it is a "this way or that way" kind-of thing so I figured it should be said out-loud since once the major combat operations stop, the end-result has to be one or the other.
RedViking
09:48:44 PM Mar 10th 2010
It is a "this way or that way" thing. If other pages aren't using it, then I say don't use them for the sake of consistency.

That said, if you're reading this, 74.50.97.246, you seriously need to calm the Hell down. You're looking at a ban, otherwise.
TheRecreator
10:55:02 PM Mar 10th 2010
Personally, I think the "!"s are visually disruptive (spaces are easier to read) and mean nothing for people unfamiliar with that grammatical use of them. Given that all the media about Mass Effect talks about Shepard as one character, adjectives should suffice to differentiate between them all. I know that Female Shepard and Renegade Shepard don't necessarily overlap with each other or exclude each other - for that matter, they both can overlap with Ugly Shepard.

That being said, the "!s are stupid, you're stupid" attitude is not what we need. If there really is a standard for the use of "!"s to indicate customization, then use it. If not, then don't.
Alhazred
02:10:09 AM Mar 11th 2010
It's pretty standard all across the fandom (it's kind-of silly that he "singled out" LJ, DA and the Bioware forums considering those are basically the biggest places the fandom gathers, one of them the official gathering place, no less) so the question might be does it stay because most of the audience for Mass Effect stuff on the intertoobs expect, accept, know it and use it (this is how it got so prevalent on the page, after all) or does it not stay because it's not a usual convention on this wiki and wouldn't be tolerated on other pages the same way?
DamselofDistress
02:57:47 AM Mar 11th 2010
I think they should go. I've never seen it used on another page in the wiki (and it's not like it's universal on the BioWare forums either) and I personally find them quite jarring and disruptive when reading.
SkarmoryThePG
05:03:23 AM Mar 11th 2010
Keep the !'s. Male Shep/Whoever looks like two different things.
WildKnight
06:40:12 AM Mar 11th 2010
I guess I would vote to strip them, for no reason that hasn't been stated already - they're not standard across the wiki, it would confuse people who don't know about how it's used that way.
Haesslich
07:16:20 AM Mar 11th 2010
I don't see the !'s at all on the Bioware boards: just Fem Shep or Shep to show the male/female versions. I do vote that whoever ranted about the LiveJournal thing get a life, though.
Geostomp
05:26:19 AM Mar 15th 2010
I barely noticed the ! marks before. I'm amazed that somebody has so little going on that they'd actually start an angry edit war just for that. Even Geeks Have Standards after all.
gfrequency
07:11:30 AM Mar 15th 2010
I never quite understood why they were here in the first place. Noticed them a while back and thought "Huh...must be some weird editing thing I'm not aware of?" Mildly annoying, more confusing than anything, but whatever.
biznizz
topic
07:57:57 AM Mar 9th 2010
Two questions:

1. In any point during Mass Effect 2 does Shepard give the famous "Fight For The Lost" speech? If so where, I can't find it.

2. Since Shepard's been dead for two years, is he still the same age in ME 2 as he was in ME 1? Or has he upped his age 2 years so he matches everyone else?
KingZeal
11:24:22 AM Mar 9th 2010
Well, Shepard aged at least one or two months after ME 1. Also, we have no clue how long his/her body was revived, since we're shown Shepard waking up once.
Haesslich
07:16:45 PM Mar 9th 2010
edited by Haesslich
Not the way he does it in the trailer, biznizz, but he does give a speech as you enter the relay, where the paragon choices basically equal the content of the trailer's speech, including the "NOT ONE MORE!" vow.
98.195.72.125
topic
12:56:14 PM Mar 6th 2010
Does Bolivian Army Ending really fit?
gfrequency
04:24:17 AM Mar 7th 2010
If there were no third game in the series planned, it might, if you really stretch the intent of the trope, but no, it really doesn't fit.

"...the title characters end the film surrounded by seemingly the entire Bolivian army after escaping from the States. It is almost certain that they will die in a blaze of glory, but the film ends before the final gunfight, leaving it up to the audience to decide if they died or managed somehow to survive."
98.195.72.125
10:53:13 AM Mar 7th 2010
That's what I was thinking. So, cut.

  • Bolivian Army Ending: Of a sort; at the end of Mass Effect 2, while Shepard succeeded in eliminating the Collector threat, the Reapers have awoken from their hibernation in Dark Space, and are preparing for an invasion of the galaxy.
SkarmoryThePG
topic
12:30:17 PM Mar 6th 2010
Why was the following deleted?

  • Talking Is a Free Action: As in all BioWare RPGs, though not quite as bad as in others. Most of the time, if something urgent is going on, the conversations will be short, and you can't start a conversation in the middle of a gunfight. However, certain sequences, like confronting Saren on Virmire occur while nuclear weapons are ticking.
    • On the other side, QTE cutscenes interrupt talking on a regular basis. Ditto any time Harbinger possesses a Collector - a good weapon and a fast shot can nail him before he's finished his speech.
  • Talking the Monster to Death: Up to and including Saren.
  • Talk to the Fist: A game mechanic in the sequel. You can shut up a villain's Hannibal Lecture by, y'know, shooting him in the face, making the subsequent fight easier.
  • Tear Jerker: The sidequest "I Remember Me."
    • Also: "Good night, Little Wing; I will see you again with the dawn."
    • If you played a Paragon Shepard in the first game, in the second you get occasional letters of thanks from the people you saved with updates on what they did with their lives. That includes the girl from "I Remember Me" if you had the right background. Probably the nicest touch in terms of giving your choices lasting emotional impact in the game.
    • Also, in some of the Mass Effect 2 Cerberus Network DLC, the mission where you explore the wreck of the original Normandy. The flashbacks to how the ship originally looked, finding all the dogtags...and especially finding the datapad telling how much Pressly grew out of his xenophobia before meeting an untimely end.
    • In Mass Effect 2, the Paragon decision to nudge Miranda into introducing herself to her sister.
    • Tali's breakdown upon finding her father dead on a geth-infested quarian ship, and the Paragon interrupt that lets you hug her.
    • Samara's loyalty quest. Not just the fact that she has to kill her own daughter, but also the talks with the mother of said daughter's latest victim.
    • In Mass Effect 2 your toast with Dr. Chakwas after bringing her a bottle of good brandy.
    • Lots of little downer moments, including:
RedViking
12:37:02 PM Mar 6th 2010
Good question. I'd also like to know.
WildKnight
06:12:41 PM Mar 6th 2010
If I had to guess, someone was probably trying to clean up the page. Those...are not the bits I would have excised, though.
98.195.72.125
10:54:41 AM Mar 7th 2010
Considering the tropes deleted are right next to each other, it looks like some just deleted a random section of the page. Possibly vandalism, or an accident.
SkarmoryThePG
04:44:04 AM Mar 8th 2010
Accident, I guess.
Turtler
topic
06:16:52 AM Mar 6th 2010
edited by Turtler
Please Delete this comment box.
RedViking
topic
01:36:42 PM Mar 5th 2010
edited by RedViking
Red Viking: Regarding the Shoot the Shaggy Dog entry. The worst ending to the second game is not this trope. For it to really be a Shoot the Shaggy Dog, the suicide mission had to be a complete failure. But even the worst ending shows the base getting destroyed or being taken over by Cerberus. Furthermore, Joker escapes so that he can warn the galaxy about the Reapers. Whatever the Collectors were planning by making a human-reaper, the point is that you put a stop to that even if everyone got killed. You forced the Reapers to change tactics. That is not pointless in any way, shape or form because there's still a chance, especially if Cerberus is in control of the base.

Furthermore, Shepard's death just means that's the end of his/her story, not a default win for the Reapers. There's nothing that says someone can't pick up where Shepard left off, nor does it invalidate certain choices Shepard may or may not have made regarding the recruitment of allies against the Reapers.
TheJoxter
02:02:36 PM Mar 5th 2010
edited by TheJoxter
Agreed, Shoot the Shaggy Dog does not apply here.
Haesslich
08:06:07 PM Mar 5th 2010
Shoot the Shaggy Dog implies things go completely to hell. But Bioware states 'worst ending' not canon, so trope not applicable. There will still be Commander Shepard, but that savegame where he dies will not happen.
Turtler
02:38:23 AM Mar 6th 2010
edited by Turtler
Again, I disagree. Simply put, due to the worst ending, the galaxy loses most if not all of the individuals that had the capacity to stop the Reapers (and Word of God has stated as much).

As for the Collectors, I believe all of you are putting WAY too much stock into their worth as a target. They were ALWAYS a subsidiary of the Reapers, nothing more. Their elimination is nothing more than a brief respite before the REAL deluge (which it is implied was even prematurely started via the Reapers beginning to move out of Dark Space.) Objectively speaking, even if we agree that the Collectors were a threat to the existence of the human race in total, the simple fact of the matter is that strategically, they are outclassed as a threat in ever way, shape, form, and meaning by the Reapers.

In short, Shepard and the crew of the SR-2 died to a man with a grand total of one exception in order to eliminate a subsidiary thteat, and in doing so rendered everything they had ever done- INCLUDING destroying the Collectors- 100% moot with the potential exception of uncovering them in the first place and POSSIBLY allowing someone to set up a Prothean gambit for those who come along by the time of the next half Aeon.

And stating that it does not apply because Bioware says it is Non-Canon (no bloody kidding) is a logical fallacy: the only relevant point is that the REASON it is non-canon is precisely BECAUSE it renders everything you have worked for into a STSD situation.

And as for stating that here is still a chance, that is exceedingly, exceedingly, exceedingly, exceedingly unlikely. REMEMBER: people have gone after the Reapers with technology vastly greater than the current races have put together, and somebody apparently shot a MA round at them so large it created the Great Rift Valley at Klendagon and apparently managed to kill- for lack of a better word- what it was aiming at. The only apparent benefit of which appears to have been in delaying their destruction by a few more (insert unit of time here) and allowing the crew of the S-2 to rip the IFF out a few million years later. So we can fairly safely assume that there is little reason to hope for success, even if Cerberus possesses the Collector base. And this is before we talk about the fact that most of the other authorities appear to be clueless on the matter (granted, they might be putting up a show as per Compartmentalization of info, but the council has been wrong before), the fact that the species are at each others throats, and the fact that the shining beacon for hope in the galaxy is in the hands of a xenophobic terrorist group and the only people to have directly confronted the Reapers on their own territory are dead (save for Joker), and the continuing fact that if the Reapers win, everything Shepard and the crew have done- hell, EVERYTHING everyone has done up to and including the Protheans- has become utterly moot, I firmly believe makes my point.

The Bioware statement that it is Non-Canon is just the icing on the cake for my case. As such, I believe that since STSD is a case where the heros are ineffective, fail to defeat the villain, and die, since failure to do number 2 immediately renders everything that they have done ineffective, and since all previous efforts to stop the Reapers have been futile (who knows? Perhaps somebody actually did at some point reprogram the Keepers or whatever the Reapers used before them and still got crushed at some point in the distant past), Joker's warning along means JACK SQUAT, given the lack of data and the fact that the data he got was almost certainly no more conclusive than the data from Sovereign after his destruction, which either influenced the Citadel and Alliance (if they are preparing behind closed doors) or didn't (if they truly are that incompetent); either way, more preparations are unlikely.

Simply put, there is next to no reason to believe organic life has any more chance than the previous cycles, and indeed, if some evidence is to be considered (RE: Klendagon), they are in fact less likely to pull out without Shepard, and the simple fact that the deaths of most of the Normandy crew and the loss of those who could directly attest to what the Collectors were doing is not going to help matters any- particularly if the base was destroyed-, and the only way the Human Reaper will be helpful is if Cerberus decides to issue a Public Service Announcement about what they found (which, needless to say, is unlikely). And the fact remains that the defeat of the Collectors only set the clock back at- in the Worst ending- an unacceptably high cost, which is completely inadequate when the series is about trying to STOP that clock. I rest my case.
TheRecreator
05:02:24 AM Mar 6th 2010
It occurs to me that the Reapers' main advantages are surprise and preparation. They're able to systematically wipe out all organic civilization every 50,000 years because they set up a giant trap. By taking the Citadel and shutting down the mass relay network, the Reapers both throw the galaxy into chaos and gain complete knowledge of where everyone lives.

If anyone - anyone - were to get some advance warning of the Reapers' invasion, then civilization can still be saved. Just colonize a truly uncharted planet, one that nobody's ever heard of, and suddenly you've scored higher than every other sapient species from the past 37 million or so years. You wouldn't even need Shepard to lead that expedition. Sure, it's not the most optimal ending, but it's a far cry from utterly pointless.
Turtler
06:17:13 AM Mar 6th 2010
edited by Turtler
"It occurs to me that the Reapers' main advantages are surprise and preparation."

In all due honesty, you are likely wrong. It HELPS, doubtless, but they aren't as squishy as the Nomads are in Freelancer. Given the Reapers' success record, it appears that they use secrecy and preparation because they MIGHT lose against a combined universe. Contrast the Nomads, who WOULD loose against a united human front. Big difference. The only actual combat we have seen against the Reapers involved one of them driving straight into the heart of Galactic civilization, tearing through several heavy ships like paper, and only going down to a LOT of punishment (if there was even one Dreadnought in the fleet- and it's a fair guess that there was a hell of a lot more- this thing was taking blasts larger than Hiroshima/Nagasaki every FEW SECONDS). And even THEN the jury is still out on whether it got killed because of said punishment or because Shepard's team on the Citadel short circuited something when they killed Saren's possessed implants. And the OTHER Reaper we see? Apparently someone managed to kill it using MA rounds that are far larger and more powerful than what we have seen in-universe (again, Klendagon's Great Rift Valley), and even then they STILL didn't completely kill the damn thing. Everything we have seen points to the consensus that these things are no pushovers, and that the smoke and mirrors seems to be more of a matter of efficiency than anything else (naturally, risk factors in somewhere, but from what we see, they aren't exactly at risk from much).

"They're able to systematically wipe out all organic civilization every 50,000 years because they set up a giant trap."

And you know this HOW? Again, these things defeated species with vastly greater technology than we possess, and while the Protheans certainly had a disadvantage re: the Citadel getting overrun and the other species (Klendagon Rift Gun) might have had the same, we can only stretch the "surprise" explanation so far. These things are effing tough, and one of these decimated the home fleet of the Galactic government as a SIDE-EFFECT of trying to open the Citadel up. Think about that for a second and tell me how likely we are to come out on top in conventional warfare. Hell, I am willing to bet that the 5-8 Reapers we see in the end cutscene could probably crush any organized resistance we could offer in a straight up fight.

"By taking the Citadel and shutting down the mass relay network, the Reapers both throw the galaxy into chaos and gain complete knowledge of where everyone lives."

True, but again, the question must be how much is that "we have to because we will get crushed if we don't" and how much is it "Extermination Cycle was delayed 10,000 years too long. This is unacceptable. Higher efficiency is required."? "If anyone - anyone - were to get some advance warning of the Reapers' invasion, then civilization can still be saved." Sorry, but what do you think Cerberus, the STG, the Alliance, etc. have? That advanced warning. Has it done any good? We don't know, depending on whether you think the Council is actually stupid or is just playing it. And even if we do assume that the Council is working on some Manhattan-project esque attempt to counter the Reapers and we can somehow herd the cats of the Citadel Races, the Terminus Systems, the Quarians, the Geth, Rachni, the Krogan, and anyone else we don't know about together, who is do say that we still have the firepower to do so?

For all we know, the entire reason why they leave a vanguard like Sovereign/Nazara in the first place is because someone actually did wise up and manage to throw the script out of play before getting crushed anyway.

"Just colonize a truly uncharted planet, one that nobody's ever heard of, and suddenly you've scored higher than every other sapient species from the past 37 million or so years."

Um, you DID listen to Vigil, right? These things are very effing patient and VERY effing thorough. Case in point: ILOS. Most if not all of the official records in the Citadel were destroyed in the initial attack, effectively placing Ilos off the grid save for some exceedingly scattered references throughout the galaxy. And even THEN the Reapers still found it and glassed the surface. Organic life in this cycle was only given a chance because they apparently didn't know about the existence of the underground research complex. THAT is pretty DAMN thorough. And if Sovereign learned and passed on the reason for why the Reapers didn't operate properly, chances are they will be even MORE careful this time.

I repeat: In ALL of the galaxy-spanning Prothean Empire, including who knows how many off the record settlements and the like, the Reapers missed a grand total of ONE SMALL RESEARCH BUNKER on ONE PLANET. Now tell me class, what does that tell us about the Reapers? In all due likelyhood, trying to settle on uncharted worlds is only going to delay them a few thousand years at most and royally tick them off even further. If these things were incompetent enough to be fooled by a fairly small group of organics setting up shop just outside of known space, the cycle of extinction would have ended EONS ago.

"You wouldn't even need Shepard to lead that expedition. Sure, it's not the most optimal ending, but it's a far cry from utterly pointless."

Only because you ludicrously, ludicrously underestimate the Reaper threat. I repeat: these things are not stupid or incompetent, and you won't realistically get away with things like settling on uncharted planets and hoping you don't get noticed. One of these things knocked the living schiesten out of the Citadel Fleet and a good portion of the Arcturus one without even really THINKING about it (granted, the Heretic Geth helped to some extent, but they by all accounts went down pretty quick).

The simple fact is that Shepard and the Crew know most of what comparatively little anybody knows about fighting the Reapers, and if the vast majority of them get killed off only to eliminate PUPPETS of the Reapers, how exactly do you think the rest of organic life is going to fare?

I re-iterate: The Reapers are very, VERY good at what they do, the cat's already out of the bag regarding the Reapers and it is hard to see how Joker's warning will realistically do more than whatever is already being done, and since the Keepers are BY DEFINITION not the real threat, and their elimination at such costs will at most merely set the clock to the complete obliteration of everything- including everything you, the Citadel, the Protheans, the Alliance, and anyone else have worked towards- back without doing much else (and thus fulfilling the guidelines of STSD).

In short, the worst ending shows the destruction of the Collectors at the cost of having Galactic life lose most of its best champions without doing much at all. Unless EDI obtained vastly more data than we see in game regarding the Reapers, it's unlikely that most- if anyone- will know anything they didn't know from the wreck of Sovereign unless Shepard chose to save the station for Cerberus AND Cerberus finds something useful AND Cerberus becomes surprisingly open about sharing this find. I rest my case.
SkarmoryThePG
06:59:42 AM Mar 6th 2010
Even if the galaxy is still screwed, then it STILL is NOT a Shoot the Shaggy Dog.
SkarmoryThePG
07:05:48 AM Mar 6th 2010
Also, re: Ilos. Vigil was making references to the research facility, not the planet. The facility wasn't found.
Turtler
08:17:29 AM Mar 6th 2010
"Even if the galaxy is still screwed, then it STILL is NOT a Shoot The Shaggy Dog."

Um, EXCUSE ME? So, even if the entire galaxy is cleansed of all intelligent organic life- only the first of many, many more times in the future-, destroying all that the Citadel races have contributed- including everything Shepard and her/his team have done- in a big hail of grey slime from what used to be organic life, thus rendering all the sacrifices of those from both this cycle and the past one (the Protheans who shoved a spanner into the works that prevented this cycle from being a simple massacre) entirely without result?

And your justification for such a statement is? What exactly WOULD you define as a STSD? If the Suicide mission had completely failed (as in the Normandy gets blown up by the Collector cruiser a second after it exits the Omega Relay)? If so, then what actual difference would there be, considering the probable end result? And even if it doesn't classify as a STSD for ME 2 (for reasons I cannot fathom), would it certainly not be fitting for the series as a whole?

Your point makes no sense I can see.

"Also, re: Ilos. Vigil was making references to the research facility, not the planet. The facility wasn't found."

I would like to see proof of that.
biznizz
08:22:37 AM Mar 6th 2010
edited by biznizz
Turtler, it just... stop. Shep-dies-Base-destroyed ending isn't a STSD. To use part of a WMG to illustrate:

Shepard and team dies and the Collector base is destroyed. Joker lives and goes to try to warn the galaxy of the upcoming Reaper invasion. However, what no one else knows is, Galactus went and ate the entire Reaper fleet.

While this scenario isn't exactly a STSD for ME 2, it is one for the overarching storyline: Shepard gives everything to stop the Reapers, including his life, but Galactus eats the Reapers, effectively making Shepard and team's sacrifice pointless, especially since the Collectors were being directly controlled by Harbinger (who was eaten).

We don't know what Joker would have done in the worst ending, and because we don't know, we cannot call this a Shoot The Shaggy Dog, if only because we don't have enough information what what would happen next.

EDIT: Illos was spared, if only because it wasn't stripped bare by the Reapers (not to mention that if the facility was found, it would have been harvested for technology, especially for the working mini-Mass Relay). And yes, if the Normandy was destroyed by the Collector cruiser three seconds after using the Omega-4 relay, then that would be closer to a STSD then what you're trying to put out.
Turtler
08:45:40 AM Mar 6th 2010
edited by Turtler
"Turtler, it just... stop"

Sorry, but I like debate, and I have nothing better to do.

And as for your argument, it is built on a misunderstanding of what STSD means.

"Joker lives and goes to try to warn the galaxy of the upcoming Reaper invasion."

You mean... like Shepard and his crew, in addition to Jahleed, Chorban, likely Anderson, and anyone else have tried to do? Simply put, almost anybody who is going to be convinced at a time prior to when it becomes hopelessly obvious and too late to prepare was convinced when Sovereign crashed through the Citadel. Joker's warnings bring appallingly little new to the table.

"However, what no one else knows is, Galactus went and ate the entire Reaper fleet."

In which case, we have even bigger problems. And there is absolutely zero evidence of the presence of Galactus or anything powerful enough to stand in for him in this setting, and there is even less to indicate that it has waylaid the Reaper fleet in any way, shape, or form.

"While this scenario isn't exactly a STSD for ME 2, it is one for the overarching storyline: Shepard gives everything to stop the Reapers, including his life, but Galactus eats the Reapers, effectively making Shepard and team's sacrifice pointless, especially since the Collectors were being directly controlled by Harbinger (who was eaten)."

That would be a STSD, but only in one respect and not the conventional respect that STSD is meant. What you are referring to is a case where a Deus ex Machina destroys the bad guys after said Heroic Sacrifices, and that destruction would have happened regardless of whatever the Good guys did. That is a STSD story, but it is not the ONLY STSD story.

In this case, it would be "Shepard gives everything to stop Reapers, including life and lives of team and crew, but Reapers power up and harvest rest of galaxy anyway, destroying absolutely everything that Shepard worked for over the course of two games and leaving the Council races and their contemporaries as nothing more than shadowy records for those "lucky" enough to be destined for the next cycle to find."

That is ALSO a STSD as defined by the STSD paage.

"We don't know what Joker would have done in the worst ending, and because we don't know, we cannot call this a Shoot The Shaggy Dog, if only because we don't have enough information what what would happen next."

Perhaps, but again, he doesn't exactly have many options, does he?

"EDIT: Illos was spared, if only because it wasn't stripped bare by the Reapers"

Perhaps, but that doesn't explain the possibility that 500,000 years of inactivity might have allowed evolution to begin again.

"(not to mention that if the facility was found, it would have been harvested for technology, especially for the working mini-Mass Relay)."

True, but the reasons why it wasn't discovered aren't exactly clear, to say the least.

"And yes, if the Normandy was destroyed by the Collector cruiser three seconds after using the Omega-4 relay, then that would be closer to a STSD then what you're trying to put out."

You are missing the point of my putting that forward. the question is WHY and HOW?
RedViking
12:40:51 PM Mar 6th 2010
"Turtler, it just... stop"

Biznizz said that because your arguments make you sound like you have a huge chip on your shoulder.
SkarmoryThePG
12:42:25 PM Mar 6th 2010
edited by SkarmoryThePG
Yes, if the Normandy was destroyed three seconds after hitting the Omega-4, that would be a SSTD. Everything you did, everything you prepared, was for nothing. SSTD involves a faulty premise - that it's the dog that's looked for, that you had a chance ever at all. The worst ending doesn't have that premise. It's a victory. A Pyrrhic Victory, possibly a death sentence for the galaxy, but a victory. Even if the galaxy dies, you've done a Fling a Light into the Future by ensuring that the Reapers do not get to assemble the Human-Reaper (before you counter that, they no longer have the means to kidnap the required amount of people. We're more likely to go down fighting).

Perhaps more importantly, a SSTG appears in the context of the story. The story is Shepard vs. Collectors. The possible outcomes are "Shepard Wins" and "Shepard Wins via Heroic Sacrifice". Either way the story ends, the story of the game. Even if ME 3 contains a "Shepard joins the Reapers" ending(*), then the galaxy might be screwed, but on a "Shepard proves him/herself worthy of joining the pantheon" level, it's a success.

(*)A shot of the Citadel, surrounded by alien ships. The Citadel activates. In one instant, the entire Reaper fleet jumps in. Camera pans from one to the other as they decimate the fleet, finally settling on one as...
Harbinger: The hunt is yours, young one. Lead, Shepard.
TheRecreator
04:50:13 PM Mar 6th 2010
I agree with Skarmory. Furthermore, the generation of sapient species depicted in Mass Effect has a huge leg up against their predecessors: some of them know the Reapers are coming. All the previous victories against the Reapers came from civilizations that completely succumbed to the Citadel trap. Even if the Robo-Cthulhus take the long route to the Milky Way, they'll have a hell of a fight ahead of them. By the time they reach the Citadel, Cerberus might have found a way to wipe the planetary database clean, thus beginning a game of hide-and-seek the Reapers aren't prepared for.

I'd like to motion that we take the material for a Shoot the Shaggy Dog example and put it into either a Pyrrhic Victory or a Non-Standard Game Over example (given that the ending is non-canon, and thus has as much impact on Mass Effect's final story as any other Game Over scenario).
RedViking
05:54:13 PM Mar 6th 2010
Maybe a Bittersweet Ending. It's not a Non-Standard Game Over since, non-canon status aside, it actually is a legitimate ending to the game.
biznizz
01:56:04 AM Mar 7th 2010
Turtler, you missed my point. If the Reapers are wiped out by an outside source, unrelated to Shepard's attempts (I just used Galactus as a point, I never freaking said he was in ME, he would be a Big Lipped Alligator Moment who eats Reapers in this scenario). The mere fact that Joker is the sole survivor does not mean the galaxy is screwed; since for all we know, the Council would listen to him since he apparently has new data on the Reapers and unite the galaxy. Or you're right, and the galaxy is screwed over again. But we don't know, so it isn't a STSD since we just don't know what would happen next.

TheJoxter
07:05:29 PM Mar 7th 2010
edited by TheJoxter
Skarmory The PG is correct, within the scope of Mass Effect 2 the ending is a victory. The villains of the story arc, the collectors, are thwarted and the mass abductions are at least temporarily ended.

Whether Shepard's actions will be ultimately ineffectual with regards to the overarching plot is impossible to say at this point but I would say that Turtler is taking a decidedly pessimistic view of affairs. Shepard was always only one man (unless, of course, he was a woman), granted an extremely capable and resilient man, but a man nonetheless. It's always been his allies and their support that allow him to be in the right place at the right time to save the day and those allies persist after his death. Regardless of how the PC ends the game TIM and Cerberus are still very much aware of the threat that the Reapers pose to the galaxy, and they have all the information on them that you had at the end of the game. Even if his motives and methods are suspect it seems unlikely that TIM will stand idly by while the reapers exterminate all life in the galaxy especially since, in some endings at least, he has access to the Collector base and whatever technology and information it posses.

Likewise there are other allies that Shepard may have made over the course of the games that could turn out to be very valuable. The Rachni Queen that the player may save on Noveria in the first game is apparently biding her time and massing an army in the second game (according to her agent on Illium) and judging from the fact that the Rachni fought an entire galaxy at once and held their own we can presume that this is likely to be a significant force. Similarly, after meeting Legion we find out that the Geth force which we encountered in ME 1, and which was perceived as a very significant threat at the time, is in reality only a fraction of the overall forces which the Geth have at their disposal. This coupled with the fact that the Geth are at least neutral on the issue of the Reapers if not outright hostile towards them means that there is probably another significant ally in the fight against the Reapers.

Hell, even the Council could field a significant force with, relatively, little notice if they reverse the Krogan Genophage. Not to mention that most of the Council races are busily reverse engineering whatever scraps they could salvage from Sovereign, and, since Shepard is not privy to the inner workings of the Alliance or the Council, it's impossible to say whether they are ignoring the reaper threat or not, although we are led to believe they are. Regardless, they are aware that the threat might exist and are therefore significantly more likely to fare well in future engagements than they would have if Shepard had never discovered the threat.

Perhaps the most (or least) convincing point is that we, the players, know that while a massive fleet of nigh indestructible ships is good for drama and building a threatening antagonist it does not make for particularly interesting gameplay or final boss fights so We can be fairly well assured that at some point the fate of the galaxy will depend entirely on a small group of adventurers finding a MacGuffin to cripple the reapers or otherwise perform some task that causes the tide of the fleet battle to successfully turn in favor of the heroes.

However, until any of these issues are addressed in Mass Effect 3 any speculation as to whether the galaxy would or would not survive without Shepard is just pointless speculation and Fan Wank and so has no place on the example page. I propose we drop this for now and bring it up again as necessary after the release of ME 3.
UltimateZ
06:01:03 PM Mar 8th 2010
It's pretty obvious isn't it? If you bring an ending from ME 2 to ME 3 where Shepard dies, you get to play as Conrad Verner, Shepard's protege, a man who plays by no rules but his own!
Alhazred
07:15:35 PM Mar 10th 2010
Small point of order regarding discussions on how strong the Reapers actually are as gone into above: there are no dreadnoughts around the Citadel, and there aren't that many in existence to begin with, so it's entirely reasonable. The Destiny Ascension is the only one there, and assuming it survives, it hauls ass away because it's combat ineffective. Sovereign is mobbed and taken down by a fleet of mostly cruisers. The fanbase in general seems to drastically over-estimate how large Sovereign is; it's pretty damn big, to be sure, but only about twice the size of one of the council race's dreadnoughts, not so much larger that the council races classify it as anything other than "a massive dreadnought." The entire point of the way the Reapers are written as a threat is that they are not invincible and do rely heavily on the mechanics of their trap. Since their trap covers pretty much every angle, it doesn't have any problem working. This is why dialog goes out of its way tell us that Sovereign can be beaten by a conventional force, and more importantly, it's why the dialog goes out of its way to tell us that technological progression in the galaxy is laid out ahead of time by the Reapers so they can use the galaxy's technology base against it. Take the Citadel, get the galaxy's census data, no one can hide. Shut off the relays, no one can run, no one can band together in numbers large enough to stop their forces even if galactic civilization as a whole could do it if they still had the ability to coordinate and regroup. In short, the Reapers can't go through with the cycle if their trap doesn't work, it's just that once the Citadel relay is turned on and they come through, the entire thing has instantly worked. The only way to stop it is to just plain stop them from coming through.
Geostomp
03:34:51 PM Mar 14th 2010
I agree with Turtuler. The trope does fit when you recognized just how much destruction the Reapers will cause. The galaxy simply isn't ready to acknowledge them, let alone fight them yet. Killing off Shepard and his entire crew just means that within a relatively short time, the Reapers will come and spend the next few centuries ensuring that absolutely no evidence of any of Shepard's evidence remains.

Killing the Colletors alone is absolutely meaningless as the Reapers are capable of simply making new proxies out of whatever species they feel like "rewarding" with that honor. It's not a Pyrrhic Victory unless something of value was gained, despite the cost.
RedViking
05:47:44 PM Mar 14th 2010
edited by RedViking
The inevitable galactic invasion of thousands of Eldritch Abominations will always cause untold destruction. That one goes without saying. If everyone dismissed Shepard's claims that they were facing extinction when he/she was still alive, then why would it matter if he/she died? Because Shepard is the only one who can convince them when everything he/she has done in the past already failed to?

The Reapers cannot use the Citadel relay anymore. This means they can no longer systematically wipe out galactic civilization to the extent they could in the past. Furthermore, we don't know what the Collectors were planning with the Human-Reaper other than it was related to the Reaper reproductive cycle. Whatever it was, the point was that Shepard & Co. put an end to that plan.

When the Reapers arrive, start destroying life on the fringes of the galaxy and keep moving inward, people will eventually take notice and they'll realize that Shepard was right. Thanks to Shepard's actions in the first game, they'll have time to amass a fleet to fight against them. Shepard dying does not automatically invalidate that

Again, even the worst ending has Joker escaping to warn the rest of the galaxy about the Reapers and, depending on Shepard's actions before he died, Cerberus gains control of the Collector base. Furthermore, Shepard had already been amassing an army to fight the Reapers as stated in the Checkovs Army entry on the main page. It's not a complete and utter Downer Ending because at least some hope still remains. As long as there's some hope left, it's not Shoot the Shaggy Dog.

Now, if we were talking about a possible "The Reapers Win" ending in the final game, then it would be Shoot the Shaggy Dog.
Haesslich
09:37:46 PM Mar 14th 2010
edited by Haesslich
Cerberus MAY gain control of the base, but it's not guaranteed. They do have access to Reaper technology through what Alliance or their own scavengers collected from Sovereign, which is where EDI's anti-Reaper tech comes from. Either way, they're more willing to act (and have fewer morals/scruples holding them back) than the Council, and Shoot the Shaggy Dog assumes that, no matter what the protagonist does, that nothing they ever did mattered in the end.

At this point, even with the worst ending, Shepard has stopped the Reaper plans twice - first by sabotaging the control the Reapers had over the Mass Relays (via the Citadel) that allowed them to destroy their targets piecemeal, and he's destroyed their vanguard/local agent so that they can't directly influence events anymore. Yes, the Reapers may get other agents; yes, they're very difficult to take one-on-one and have higher levels of technology than the Citadel Space species or humans have. But it's no longer a guaranteed wipeout, which removes the game and the series from the Shoot the Shaggy Dog trope. Especially since Shepard will survive to the third game, no matter what. You may have to use a 'fresh' Shepard, the way a player new to Mass Effect 2 would, instead of importing a save with your choices up to that point, but it's still Shepard leading the fight against the Reapers as they return from dark space.

Shoot the Shaggy Dog assumes everything done up to this point was futile; which, if the next game starts with the Reapers suddenly appearing in Citadel space en masse, shut down all the relays without needing to use the Citadel's controls, AND immediately wipe out all the homeworlds and major colonies of the major species... THEN it's a Shoot the Shaggy Dog story, as nothing Shepard did made a difference, or could possibly have made a difference.

Geostomp
05:47:33 AM Mar 15th 2010
Very well then, I've added Pyrrhic Victory as the trope. We can all agree on that now, right?
SpectreAgent
06:52:19 PM May 1st 2010
But is the game a traditional Shaggy Dog Story? Sure you are fighting for the lost, but in the end they are ALL destined to be pulped...
Medicus
07:58:45 PM May 1st 2010
Nope. Even though all the colonists end up dead, you avenge them by killing the Collectors. You DO Fight For The Lost.
Haesslich
topic
07:03:38 PM Mar 4th 2010
edited by Haesslich
Moving following to Discussion page:

  • In ME 2 Mordin mentions that humans have greater genetic variation than most other species. This is patently untrue because even amongst other primates on Earth humans have a remarkably low level of genetic diversity. For example, the average family of chimpanzees has more genetic diversity than the entire human race combined.
  • Though, he was primarily referring to the sentient races of the ME universe. Since they're all fictional species, who can say?

Natter invalid. Reason explained in Loyalty Mission dialogue. To whit:

Commander Shepard: How are humans more genetically diverse?
Mordin: More variable. Peaks and valleys, mutations, adaptations. Far beyond other life. Makes humans useful test subjects. Larger reactions to smaller stimulus.
Commander Shepard: I know we can look much different from each other, but asari have a wide range of skin tones.
Mordin: No. Ignore superficial appearances. Down to genetic code. Biotic abilities, intelligence levels. Can look at random asari, krogan, make reasonable guess. Humans too variable to judge. Outliers in all species, of course. Geniuses, idiots. But human probability curve offers greater variety.

Inferrence; other aliens more homogeneous. Perhaps Art Major Biology?
helterskelter
12:38:37 AM Sep 11th 2010
Like the removed Natter says, they're fictional species. Who's to say humans don't have incredibly diverse genes for aliens? Maybe Earth is an exceptionally stable planet, whereas others are prone to extinctions and mass wipe-outs more often. It's plausible.
TheRecreator
topic
11:12:25 AM Mar 4th 2010
Seems like most of the discussion regarding the page image was lost in the transition to the new system, so let's recap from off the top of my head: 1) The battle-damaged N7 logo is cool. 2) We'd prefer an image that will captivate any Troper who randomly finds this page. 3) The Citadel is a constant factor between both games. So are the mass relays. 4) We might be over-thinking this.

Anyone want to add to this? Is there a need to change the page image again, revert or otherwise?
biznizz
11:35:57 AM Mar 4th 2010
Hmm... well, if the N7 logo isn't that satisfactory, then how about the Mass Effect title with the planet behind it, like from the first game?
TheRecreator
11:40:37 AM Mar 4th 2010
edited by TheRecreator
A simple title logo with the planet background (like this one, but for the first game)? That would work, but I can't find one. There might be one in the fan website kit on Bioware's page, but I haven't downloaded that.
biznizz
01:14:51 PM Mar 4th 2010
It really doesn't matter if the "2" is on there. That pic seems fine.
TheRecreator
02:02:39 PM Mar 4th 2010
Eh… for a trope titled by the franchise name, I'd prefer a slightly more general image. How 'bout a cropped version of the first game's title screen? (56k warning)
biznizz
08:12:20 AM Mar 5th 2010
That's fine. Just make sure the "Press Start" isn't there, though.
TheRecreator
04:43:58 PM Mar 6th 2010
WildKnight
06:12:08 PM Mar 6th 2010
I like!
Haesslich
09:06:25 PM Mar 6th 2010
Definitely works for me.
SkarmoryThePG
11:21:30 PM Mar 6th 2010
Agreed.
codenamehunterwolf
06:37:15 AM Mar 7th 2010
It's not Subject Zero raping Shepard. That's probably a good thing. I'm easy.
Aminatep
topic
10:07:49 AM Mar 4th 2010
Aminatep: Tempted to rewrite Mordin's subsection. Imitating his way of speech seems suitable. Objections needed. Encouragements needed also.
larseis
11:00:35 AM Mar 4th 2010
Cannot think of any logical objection. Personally, need to see it. Need to see.
TheRecreator
11:43:00 AM Mar 4th 2010
Hang a lampshade on it. Use potholes. Might work.
Aminatep
12:55:06 PM Mar 6th 2010
back to Franchise/MassEffect

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