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lu127
moderator
topic
02:17:32 PM Jul 16th 2012
Pulled:

The White Prince has been renamed and redefined as Sheltered Aristocrat. The way this entry is written, it's not clear if he fits the new definition. Please read it before readding.
Iaculus
topic
10:17:28 AM Jan 17th 2012
edited by Iaculus
Regarding the removed Fantastic Racism entry for Durandal, I must admit that I'm having some difficulty seeing how the Destiny Plan isn't racist. I mean, the fact that genetic segregation would make the Coordinators the master race by default seems evidence enough, and that's excluding the mundane-racist elements inherent to it even without the Natural-Coordinator divide. Put it this way - how would you react to someone proposing something like Destiny in the real world?

Durandal may not express the virulent 'us versus them' hatred of, say, Zala or Azrael, but I find it difficult to argue that there isn't some prejudice at work here.
AmbarSonofDeshar
03:58:10 PM Mar 15th 2012
I wouldn't disagree with you. Social Darwinism is going to include some racial elements in the real world, and in a world where there really are genetically superior people? Yeesh. Go ahead and add it back. I'm not stopping you.
DarkHero9
02:42:17 AM May 30th 2012
edited by DarkHero9
Except that this doesn't apply to Durandal in anyway. While the Destiny Plan may seem racist, his motivation has nothing to do with racism. And I do believe he mentioned that he wanted everyone to be given the same chance, regardless of their race, their gender and whether they received genetic engineering in any nature. The worst you could say about this being in anyway racist is that Durandal didn't factor in that the Destiny Plan could be used that way, especially by people who DO believe that Coordinators should be the master race.

And again, nothing in the show aside from the Destiny Plan suggests that Durandal is a racist. In fact, as stated on the page itself, the reason Durandal is doing this is because he doesn't want people like Rau Le Creuset and to a lesser extent, people like Patrick Zala, Muruta Azrael and Djibril. He does it because he believes that humans are inherently evil like Rau did, the difference is that he's trying to solve the problem instead of make it worse until we all kill each other.

So yes, it is possible to see Durandal's plan as being unintentionally racist, but Durandal himself is clearly shown in series to not be motivated by racism.
DarkHero9
03:04:11 AM May 30th 2012
But really, how could I describe Durandal better than that he is much more in line with the guy who is trying to put an end to racism, but what he ended up doing was just going to make it worse.
ShinnBidan
topic
08:04:18 PM Aug 27th 2011
edited by ShinnBidan
Since we've established that Shinn goes from a Type 3 to a Type 4 Anti-Hero, do we know where on the Sliding Scale of Anti-Villains he goes? Come to think of it, is there any specific reason why we don't specifically note which type of Anti-Villain a character is?

One more thing: I'm not sure how a person can be both an Anti-Hero and an Anti-Villain, so can someone explain this to me, as well as if this only applies to Shinn and not the other characters?

And before I forget, is there any reason why any references to Massive Multiplayer Crossover games like Super Robot Wars are removed from here and not in others' pages, like the Zeta Gundam's or ∀ Gundam's?
AmbarSonofDeshar
08:13:02 PM Sep 17th 2011
edited by AmbarSonofDeshar
If you want to remove those references from Zeta or Turn A go ahead. They should go on the character sheet for Super Robot Wars, not Gundam. It would be like putting tropes related to Kira in Seed Destiny on the Seed page. Or putting tropes related to The Dark Knight on the page for the 1989 Batman. They are different interpretations of the same character.

Shinn is somewhere between Type II and III Antivillain. He's a Jerkass Woobie and Well-Intentioned Extremist. In practise, he's probably Type II: it's Rey who's the real Utopia Justifies the Means type; Shinn's just doing what Rey tells him to.

As for how he's both, it's because of the perspective switch halfway through the series. Shinn was an Antihero when he seemed to be on the side of the angels (as even then he was deeply, deeply screwed up). As the show progresses, we find out that ZAFT are the bad guys; as such, Shinn makes the shift to Antivillain.
Gatomon41
topic
07:09:13 PM Apr 29th 2011
On Meyrin and Expy:

The reason I returned the edit was the removal reason for the did not make any sense. As quoted: "Looks alone do not make an Expy. They share nothing personality wise. Flay and Nina could almost be argued, though not really. Meyrin and either of them, no,"

However, this contradicts the diffention of Expy:

To quote: "Short for "Exported Character", an Expy is a character from one series who is unambiguously and deliberately based on a character in another, older series. A few minor traits such as age and name may change, but there's no doubt that they are almost one and the same. Often seen in different works by the same writer(s) or production team."

It is also not by looks alone. Meyrin behavior mirrors that of Fllay in the latter part of Gundam SEED. That is justification enough foran example of the trope.
AmbarSonofDeshar
09:44:00 AM Apr 30th 2011
How does her behaviour in the latter half mimic Flay's? She helps Athrun escape, and serves a Bridge Bunny on the Archangel. She never has a psychological breakdown, and I would argue, doesn't really Heel-Face Turn as she was never evil to begin with (even when compared to an Anti-Villain like Shinn). Flay, in contrast, has her sense of self-worth shattered, and spends the second half of Seed in a state of shock, only snapping out of it when Azrael tries to sink the Archangel. There's not much similarity there. Similarly, claiming Nena is an Expy of Meyrin, I can't buy. Claiming she's an Expy of Flay on the other hand, I'd buy.

"A few minor traits such as age and name may change, but there's no doubt that they are almost one and the same."

That's just not true for Meyrin and Flay, or Meyrin and Nena. Meyrin's the archetypal Nice Girl, wheras Flay and Nena are deeply flawed, massively screwed-up, and only begin to come out of it towards the end. Neither their personalities nor their actions are similar to her's. It would be easier to claim that Talia Gladys is an Expy of Natarle Badgerrule.
AmbarSonofDeshar
topic
08:33:59 AM Nov 3rd 2010
On the subject of Luna as The Dark Chick: how does she not fit, post-perspective flip? While it can refer to the Axe Crazy member of the villainous team, the actual page description simply describes it as the villainous counterpart to The Chick. Luna is The Chick pre-perspective flip. No one seems to have a problem with that. So how is she not The Dark Chick once ZAFT are outed as Antivillains?

As for Rey as Ill Boy, I admit it doesn't fit that well. Is there a more appropriate trope? He's sick, dying, and it serves as a major part of his motivation. I'm sure there's a trope for that, but I can't think of it.
Iaculus
09:06:38 AM Nov 3rd 2010
NativeJovian
07:36:12 AM Nov 4th 2010
Re: Luna, I don't think she fits as The Dark Chick because I don't think she fits as part of the Five-Bad Band. Durandal as the Big Bad, Rey as his right-hand man and Shinn is his muscle I can buy, but Luna doesn't really fit as The Dark Chick. It's not just "The Chick, but evil" (which she doesn't fit anyway, because she never really DOES anything evil), the trademark of The Dark Chick is standing out from the rest of the Five-Bad Band, looking or acting significantly differently than the rest of the team, which Luna doesn't.

Re: Djibril, I don't think he counts as a Replacement Scrappy because I don't think he counts as being Azrael's replacement. Okay, sure, they're both the Earth Alliance-aligned Big Bad, but they don't really fill the same niche in their respective shows. Azrael showed up late in the series and assumed direct military control of the local OMNI forces, whereas Djibril showed up very early and is a much more hands-off manipulate-from-the-shadows type villain.

Re: Yzak, he's not really chaotic. He consistantly sticks with ZAFT even when he knows they're in the wrong. He does bend the rules, but he never really says Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right. He's Neutral Good if anything, but I don't think he really fits any of the alignment pidgeonholes, which is why I didn't list one for him.

Re: Rau, I really don't buy the "woobie" part of Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds (his daddy was a jerk so he murdered him, burnt his mansion down, and decided to kill everyone? There's a whole lot of Axe Crazy and not a lot of Woobie there) but I'm willing to leave it in if other people want it. But he's definitely Aloof Big Brother rather than Big Brother Mentor — the latter has close, healthy relationship, while the former has a a distant, emotionally stunted relationship that inspires an inferiority complex, a desire to match/surpass the "big brother", rather than the motivation to live up to your own potential that the Big Brother Mentor gives. Besides, Rau was off being a ZAFT soldier, he didn't have time to take care of Rey — if anything, Durandal would be the Big Brother Mentor (if he wasn't a Parental Substitue instead)

Oh, and on the subject of Auel, I only remember him using Stella's block word once (during the Armory One raid), and it was justified in that instance, even if he did enjoy it a little too much. I'm probably forgetting a time or two it gets used, but it certainly doesn't happen constantly like the Kick the Dog comment implies.

Other minor things: unspoilered some stuff because completely blank examples are useless, especially when they're untwisty in the first place and are spoilered in other examples anyway (what's the point of spoilering Cloning Blues but not The Reveal?). Also took out Feed Me because it's a supertrope; there's no point in having Evil Is Hammy and Feed Me. Ditto Super Serum and Psycho Serum. Zen Survivor was removed because it's a trope about a particular sort of Trickster Mentor that didn't apply to most of the characters; the one you're looking for is Older and Wiser, which is already listed for basically all returning characters.

And finally! Some of the changes listed under my name were not done by me. (For example, the changes to Nietzsche Wannabe and Sympathy for the Devil in Rey's entry, changing Stella back to Stellar, a bunch of others.) Some wonkyness with people making simultaneous edits?
AmbarSonofDeshar
08:48:28 AM Nov 4th 2010
edited by AmbarSonofDeshar
The original expansion of Nietzsche Wannabe was mine. Don't know what's up with the rest.

Whether you like him or not, Le Creuset is a classic example of Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds: I hurt so much, that everything has to go away. He's one of the few undisputed examples on the page. The fact that he's dying young, and can't look in the mirror without freaking out is a part of it too. The majority of scenes with him in Seed Destiny actually help to humanise him even more, so it needs to be here. Does he really count as Aloof Big Brother? I thought you had to be deliberately cold and aloof, and from what we see of them, Rau's far warmer with Rey then he is with anyone else; heck he seems to genuinely like him. Would it be fair to attach a comment to Aloof Big Brother about how he's trying to be a Big Brother Mentor and failing?

I think Kick the Dog needs to be left in with Auel, because that's exactly what his use of the word (as well as his mocking of her) are meant to emphasise: that he's the nastiest of the three Extended, at least initially.

Feed Me is a particular moment which is why I'd included it. Djibril is normally over-the-top, but that's the only time he really hits total, on-screen Axe Crazy. I think I've got a better way to put it in though (I'll just link it through the quote).

Luna may not do anything evil, but she fits in the sense that by being totally passive and not speaking out about the fake Lacus etc, she enables Rey to continue to easily use Shinn. That, along with her gender, genuine lack of Kick the Dog, and the fact that she's motivated by loyalty to ZAFT rather than "change the world" is what got me to classify her as the Dark Chick in the first place. She's very different from the two boys, just in a positive way instead of a negative one.

Djibril may be different from Azrael, but if you go on any boards where they are discussed, expect to see him bashed for being dumber, less sucessful, and less classy than Azrael.

I think the Stella thing may have been changed back yet again. What is up with that?

EDIT: How do we decide what's untwisty anyway? A lot of people act like Rey's being a clone in particular "just came out of nowhere". I don't agree (then again, I'm one of those freaks who thinks this was a great show) but how do we decide what should and what shouldn't be spoilered. I can also honestly tell you that my girlfriend and I, and one of my other anime geek friends, freaked when we found out Neo was La Flaga. Put it down to great willing suspension of disbelief, and Trevor Devall being in a lot of stuff.

EDIT: Quite a few changes seem to have been randomly deleted. Going off what you said about stuff just vanishing, and the fact that you don't mention them above I'm going to put a few back in
NativeJovian
02:40:00 PM Nov 4th 2010
Re: Rau, the definition of Woobie is that it engages audience sympathy. You're quite honestly the first person I've ever seen express that opinion about Rau. If you really want to keep it, fine, but register my complete and utter bafflement at the gleefully dog-kicking Omnicidal Maniac being someone's Draco in Leather Pants.

Re: Luna, I still call Square Peg Round Trope. She just doesn't fit, and I think you're just looking to flesh out the Five-Bad Band. But not worth getting into an edit war over.

Re: Stella, I changed that back when I reverted the odd changes that were attributed to me but I didn't make.

Re: "untwisty", I think both Rey and Neo's identities count, given how they didn't try real hard to hide their identities in the first place (I mean, you brainwashed a "dead" guy into a new person an named him Neo? Really? Subtle.), but deciding what to spoilerize is one of the more difficult decisions in examples. I generally think it's fine as-is for now.

The only other change I disagree with is reverting Xanatos Speed Chess to Trickster. Durandal is not a Trickster. Just reading the Trickster page makes that obvious. "The Trickster openly questions and mocks authority, encourages impulse and enthusiasm, seeks out new ideas and experiences, destroys convention and complacency, and promotes chaos and unrest. At the same time, the trickster brings new knowledge, wisdom and many An Aesop. Even when punished horribly for his effrontery, his indomitable spirit keeps him coming back for more. The trickster is often a Master Of Disguise and may have magical or super-powers. They are always Chaotic Neutral." Absolutely no part of that describes Durandal. And besides, Xanatos Speed Chess fits the pothole ("rolls with unexpected events") way better than Trickster does.
AmbarSonofDeshar
04:22:59 PM Nov 4th 2010
edited by AmbarSonofDeshar
Problem is that if you're going to class him as Magnificent Bastard, it's supposed to include the trickster element, in the sense of adapting to unexpected changes. If you want to keep it at Xanatos Speed Chess fine, but it might mean he doesn't qualify.

With regards to Le Creuset, I can't be the only one, given that I first discovered Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds through him (on the Seed page), and he was already there. He's also got entries on Evil Is Cool and Magnificent Bastard. Anyway, what the trope refers to is that a character hurts so much they want to take everything out. As the page used to say, "everything has to go" so that they can feel better...often right before they go too. It's about what's motivating you to be an Omnicidal Maniac, and it very much applies to Le Creuset. Attempts were made recently to split the page between Woobies and something called Put Them All Out of My Misery (which really sounds like Rau, doesn't it) but the latter trope is so poorly written, and so badly constructed that it's impossible to tell who qualifies and who doesn't, or even what exactly it's supposed to be about. Even after the page split, Le Creuset still hits every requirement for Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. On a personal note, not giving him Draco in Leather Pants. He's a monster who needed to die; just one that I happen to a)-feel sorry for, and b)-think was a great villain. Check out the Seed page for more on what people think of Rau. Like Flay, he's listed as a very polarising character with your and my opinions representing more or less the split. (That's not getting into the crazy fangirls who think he should like, totally, have been allowed to blow up the world).

Is there a better term for Luna's role? I don't want to add her back if you really feel that strongly about it, but it seems to be that she does meet the Dark Chick requirements.

Like the comment about Neo; but hey, this is Djibril we're talking about. He probably thought it the height of cunning.
NativeJovian
08:46:33 AM Nov 8th 2010
Re: Magnificent Bastard, Tropes Are Flexible. Durandal's definitely a Magnificent Bastard, but just as definitely not a Trickster. Don't sweat it; no one's going to revoke his Magnificent Bastard status on a technicality.
diablejambe
topic
07:24:18 PM Oct 16th 2010
Forgive me if I'm completely missing the point, but I don't understand the rationale behind calling Shinn Asuka a Villian Protagonist. He helps break up Junius 7, saving millions of lives in the process, he saves Athrun afterwards, he saves two villages from EA occupation, he is the defending party in both engagements with Orb, even after he wrecks their fleet he makes no effort to go after the retreating ships or the lifeboats, he saves a wounded enemy pilot, he refuses to allow his own side to turn her into a lab rat, and he attempts to end the battle at Berlin peacefully. Prior to the perspective flip, not only is he going around helping and saving more people than Kira Yamato, he's also not doing anything that could be called villianous, and after the perspective flip it's generally accepted that he loses the protagonist slot and thus isn't eligible to be a villian protagonist even then. Is there any reason he's considered a villian protagonist besides the fact that he's a jerk to people he dislikes and is going up against the previous series protagonists?
AmbarSonofDeshar
01:05:31 PM Oct 23rd 2010
He's an Anti-Villain protagonist. He works for a government that seeks to impose genetic determinism on the world, and continues to do so long after these plans are revealed. He's selfish and believes that the people on the other side are barely human, and ignores atrocities committed by his own troops. The "saving more people that Kira" thing is counterbalanced by his own rampant slaughter, and his saving Stella is pretty much mitigated by killing Auel. He's an Anti-Villain by definition: doing all the wrong things with the best of intentions, and is one of the thre main viewpoint characters (along with Athrun and Kira). Hence his being referred to as an Anti-Villain Protagonist.
diablejambe
10:53:30 PM Oct 29th 2010
edited by diablejambe
Selfish alone does not a villain make. He never, ever claims that the people on the other side are barely human and his side commits no atrocities prior to the perspective flip. "Rampant slaughter"? They're enemies trying to kill him and everyone on board his ship. Killing enemy soldiers in a time of war is not a villainous act. I could understand calling it villainous if he'd gone after the lifeboats or attacked them when they were retreating, but he doesn't do that. Auel, again, is an enemy soldier attempting to kill him. Shinn may be a viewpoint character, but Kira is listed as a Hero Antagonist during the early part, because despite being a viewpoint character, he is not the protagonist at that time. I'm not saying Shinn doesn't become an Anti-Villain later, however the time when he is villain and the time when he is protagonist do not intersect, therefore he is not eligible to be a Villain Protagonist
AmbarSonofDeshar
12:00:11 PM Oct 30th 2010
He allows ZAFT's allies to execute surrendered prisoners. However, if you really want to remove the Villain Protagonist part, fine. It was put there due to disputes about who the protagonist was. It was easier to put that in. Also, depending on who you ask you'll get very different answers as to when Shinn stops being the main viewpoint character (he remains a viewpoint character throughout). Some think it was as early as episode 20 or so, others much later, when he is definitely one of the villains. Even then, he, Kira, and Athrun are the three main characters throughout, and all that really shifts is who gets the most screen time.
ShinnBidan
08:19:05 PM May 11th 2011
That post is pretty spot on, with possibly one exception:

"He allows ZAFT's allies to execute surrendered prisoners."

Actually looking at the episode, the ones to excecute the Earth Alliance members actually seem to be the villagers who the EA terrorized. I think that sounds more accurate. Also, the only person that we absolutely know was aware of said executions was Athrun. We don't see Shinn acknowledge or even notice that this is taking place.
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