During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Cade.
Cade ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Kira
Also I would like to propose that these entries be reworked.
From V for Vendetta:
- Complete Monster: Unlike the comic book, where the fascist characters are more well rounded, in the film some of them are irredeemable monsters:
The entries below(Sutler and Creedy) don't need to be reworked but the introduction implies that CM characters are inherently flat or generic in their evilness by highlighting how the Fascists in the comics are "more well rounded". Yet we have some really well-written or complex CM characters. So I propose changing it to:
- Complete Monster: Unlike the comic book, where the fascist characters are more sympathetic, in the film some of them are irredeemable monsters:
And this is from Ultra Series:
- Ultraman Nexus: Dark Zagi ("Evil God of Destruction"), alias Unknown Hand, is an evil, heartless, genocidal tyrant from another world. Created to be a force for justice, a clone of Ultraman Noa, instead he chose to kill off his creators, slaughtering so many of their people that they abandoned their planet and destroyed it to be rid of him. Zagi survived, and simply created an army of Space Beasts, including Beast the One, to take over the universe. He sent that monster to Earth, making him indirectly responsible for everything that went wrong in Ultraman: The Next. In the series proper, Zagi was beaten before the events of the series and destroyed, leaving behind his energy core and his soul. To restore his power, he possesses a random man, killing him slowly and taking over his body. Crafting the alias of Mitsuhiko Ishibori, Zagi starts a long gambit to regain his powers, sending Space Beasts across Japan and creating two more Dark Giants to attack Nexus and kill as many people as they can. At one point, Zagi actually kills a little girl's parents right in front of her and laughs about it. Eventually, Zagi succeeds in his gambit, and reveals himself by casually shooting his loyal partner in TLT. Nagi Saijyo, the girl Zagi personally orphaned, chases him and confronts him with the power of Ultraman Nexus. Zagi, who's revealed himself as Ishibori, simply mocks her, captures her, and tortures Nexus's power out of her body before absorbing it into himself and regaining his true form. Ascending to Tokyo, he orders all of his Space Beasts to attack the entire planet while he personally rampages through the city. Zagi was a remorseless, twisted killing machine, and died completely unrepentant of his crimes.
And:
- Ultraman Zero: The Revenge of Belial: Belial comes back as Kaiser Belial ("Dark Great Emperor"), as bad as ever. After Zero beat Belial, Belial traveled to another dimension, creating Darklops robotic clones of his archenemy Zero and sending them out to cause havoc. One such clone, Darklops Zero, is the Big Bad of the tie-in movie Ultra Galaxy: Ultraman Zero vs Darklops Zero, making Belial responsible for everything that goes wrong there. Said clone was a sadistic killing machine, much like his creator. In the movie proper, we find out why Belial was making an army of robots—he’s been going from planet to planet in this new dimension, harvesting "emerald" power sources to power his army and himself. Renaming himself "Kaiser Belial" or simply "Emperor", Belial sends his forces to massacre all opposition. Zero tracks Belial to this dimension, even taking a human host to survive, but Belial captures him and gloats to Zero about his plans. Once finished in this alternate dimension, Belial was going to murder all Zero’s friends and then have his Empire destroy everyone in Nebula M78, Zero’s home world, while Zero is forced to watch. Zero escapes and the two have a rematch, with Belial eventually turning into a monster called Arch Belial. Now unstoppable, Belial takes great pleasure in torturing Zero, beating on him and sucking the life out of Zero’s body while gloating about his newfound power. Belial is beaten, and dies completely unrepentant of his crimes.
Were these characters offered the chance to redeem themselves but rejected it? If not don't mention how they died completly unrepentant of their crimes. If not we will change it to:
- Ultraman Nexus: Dark Zagi ("Evil God of Destruction"), alias Unknown Hand, is an evil, heartless, genocidal tyrant from another world. Created to be a force for justice, a clone of Ultraman Noa, instead he chose to kill off his creators, slaughtering so many of their people that they abandoned their planet and destroyed it to be rid of him. Zagi survived, and simply created an army of Space Beasts, including Beast the One, to take over the universe. He sent that monster to Earth, making him indirectly responsible for everything that went wrong in Ultraman: The Next. In the series proper, Zagi was beaten before the events of the series and destroyed, leaving behind his energy core and his soul. To restore his power, he possesses a random man, killing him slowly and taking over his body. Crafting the alias of Mitsuhiko Ishibori, Zagi starts a long gambit to regain his powers, sending Space Beasts across Japan and creating two more Dark Giants to attack Nexus and kill as many people as they can. At one point, Zagi actually kills a little girl's parents right in front of her and laughs about it. Eventually, Zagi succeeds in his gambit, and reveals himself by casually shooting his loyal partner in TLT. Nagi Saijyo, the girl Zagi personally orphaned, chases him and confronts him with the power of Ultraman Nexus. Zagi, who's revealed himself as Ishibori, simply mocks her, captures her, and tortures Nexus's power out of her body before absorbing it into himself and regaining his true form. Ascending to Tokyo, he orders all of his Space Beasts to attack the entire planet while he personally rampages through the city. Zagi was a remorseless, twisted killing machine, and responsible for much of the suffering that occurred in this series.
- Ultraman Zero: The Revenge of Belial: Belial comes back as Kaiser Belial ("Dark Great Emperor"), as bad as ever. After Zero beat Belial, Belial traveled to another dimension, creating Darklops robotic clones of his archenemy Zero and sending them out to cause havoc. One such clone, Darklops Zero, is the Big Bad of the tie-in movie Ultra Galaxy: Ultraman Zero vs Darklops Zero, making Belial responsible for everything that goes wrong there. Said clone was a sadistic killing machine, much like his creator. In the movie proper, we find out why Belial was making an army of robots—he’s been going from planet to planet in this new dimension, harvesting "emerald" power sources to power his army and himself. Renaming himself "Kaiser Belial" or simply "Emperor", Belial sends his forces to massacre all opposition. Zero tracks Belial to this dimension, even taking a human host to survive, but Belial captures him and gloats to Zero about his plans. Once finished in this alternate dimension, Belial was going to murder all Zero’s friends and then have his Empire destroy everyone in Nebula M78, Zero’s home world, while Zero is forced to watch. Zero escapes and the two have a rematch, with Belial eventually turning into a monster called Arch Belial. Now unstoppable, Belial takes great pleasure in torturing Zero, beating on him and sucking the life out of Zero’s body while gloating about his newfound power.
As a side note, I will have the draft for the Diablo entry up soon and will go over the Lost Heir Trilogy next week.
edited 24th Mar '17 6:04:34 PM by xie323
Btw, Reyn, on Steely Dan, and I apologize as I meant to type this earlier...
In most other series, Dan would be a decent qualifier. The fundamental issue is that we have to compare him to DIO and his merry band of other psychopaths. J. Geil is a serial killer of young women, as are Angelo. Both are, arguably, weaker than Dan himself, but get up to comparatively more evil and vicious crimes. This isn't unusual with Dio's henchmen either. Unfortunately, it means Dan doesn't quite 'stick out' to the extent needed to qualify for this trope. One can be utterly loathsome and despicable but still fail to hit that special mark.
Regarding despicable villains you hate a lot? If I'm being honest, it's...hard to get worse than Ragyo Kiryuin. She's easily one of the most contemptible characters I have ever seen in an anime. Berserk...I'll just say of the three Complete Monsters of that series, you'd need to read the manga to see two of them.
What about Prime Minister Honest?
Write up for Alfredo:
- The Stendhal Syndrome: Alfredo Grossi is a serial rapist and serial killer who has raped 15 women, killing the last two. He follows detective Anna Manni to her apartment and rapes her, taking her back to his car where she sees him rape and kill another woman. Alfredo lets Anna escape so he can recapture her and rape her again at a later date. Before going after Anna again, he rapes and kills another woman. He kills two officers to break into Anna's apartment to rape her again. Though Anna kills Alfredo, the trauma from the two rapes she suffered, combined with her Stendhal Syndrome, drives her insane.
Is it good for the drafts?
edited 24th Mar '17 11:02:08 PM by bobg
jjj
Honest is an example of thistrope done...not so well, I'd argue. It's very, very obvious he's so evil because he's written that way. He's just a sadistic, bloated hedonist who's extremely flat as a character.
Ragyo is far more...organically evil as a CM, and her crimes run the gamut on the rapsheet. I'd also argue she's more disturbing thanks to some of the more revolting crimes she commits.
Anyone approve of my revisions to the entries I pointed out that need some changes?
edited 24th Mar '17 6:39:28 PM by xie323
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
It's hard to beat people like Shou Tucker, Dolores Umbridge, and Vice-Minister Lekain in loathsomeness for me. They stand out to me because they're essentially fantastic takes on the kind of monster that could conceivably exist in real life.
CMs that are disgusting for the wrong reasons for me are Dr. Light, who only became a CM due to a 3edgy5me retcon nobody asked for (thanks for getting rid of him, Spectre!), and Major Force, who was evidently created by people who think "ridiculously over-the-top disgusting all the time" equals good villain writing.
edited 24th Mar '17 6:19:19 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Here's the Diablo write-up:
- Al'Diabalos, better known as Diablo, is the Lord of Terror and truly lives up to his title, relishing in the desire to conquer and corrupt the world of sanctuary or simply the desire to strike fear in the hearts of mortals. Before the events of the first game, Diablo and his brothers, Mephisto and Baal, were created from the remains of Tathamat and fought the Angiris Council in the Eternal Conflict, at times even fighting his own brothers to gain more power for himself. With the discovery of Sanctuary, Diablo sought to corrupt the Nephelim(Humanity) to his will, engineering first the attempt to trap the city of Ureh into hell by disguising himself as an angel to manipulate the ruler to draw the city closer to hell, and centuries later, deliberately engineering his and his brothers' own exile from hell by provoking the Lesser Evils to drive the Prime Evils out of hell and into Sanctuary so they could corrupt humanity. Through this plan failed due to the intervention of Tyrael and the Horadim, Diablo's essence continued to plot for his freedom and the domination of Sanctuary, possessing King Leoric of Tristram 200 years after his imprisonment with the help of Archbishop Lazarus and later taking possession of Prince Albrecht once he deemed Albrecht a suitable host. Through defeated by Albrecht's brother, Prince Aiden, Diablo corrupts Prince Aiden into the Dark Wanderer when the latter sought to contain Diablo's soulstone within himself, and procreated Leah with Adria as a means to revive himself should he be slain again. As the Dark Wanderer, Diablo destroyed Tristram with a horde of Demons and sought to free his brothers and unlesh them into Sanctuary in order to corrupt the Worldstone and corrupt humanity, manipulating Marius into helping him find Baal in the Tomb of Tal Rasha. Through defeated by a group of adventurers and seemingly banished to the black abyss with the supposed destruction of his Soulstone, Diablo reemerged 20 years later due to Adria's manipulations of another group of adventurers into killing the Lesser Evils to empower the Black Soulstone through the killing of the last surviving Lesser Evils, Azmodan and Belial, and restore Diablo into Sanctuary into a form combining the power and essence of all the Great Evils. Ultimatly, Adria's manipulations suceeded at restoring Diablo at the cost of Leah's life, and he ascended to the High Heavens to destroy the Angris Council, causing much destruction and corruption before his defeat at the hands of the adventurers manipulated by Adria. Driven by a desire corrupt all of humanity and spread terror across Sanctuary, Diablo stands out as the vilest of the Prime Evils.
edited 24th Mar '17 6:42:31 PM by xie323
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@xie: The V for Vendetta revision seems fine. The Ultraman ones I'm still debating, given how similar they still look.
Still think Pilot the Tall is the most loathsome character for me. Clearly he was written that way, but fucking hell.
The Fallen, however, is probably my most loathed CM for all the wrong reasons.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Regarding hated CM's; I'd say Shou Tucker, Steele, Jill Roberts, Paulie Franchetti, Theo Raeken, Gerard Argent, Mark Jefferson. I don't like Markos that much, not so much for his heinousness but for being one of the least interesting and underwhelming villains I've seen. Lately I got my parents watching Game of Thrones, and we've been binge watching season three all day (they aren't at the Red Wedding yet), my mom appears to hate Joffery of course, but the Ramsay scenes made her look away a few times.
Now, onto entries.
- Vampire Diaries:
- Season 6’s Big Bad is Malachai "Kai" Parker, a young and bloodthirsty witch with constant murder on the brain. In his past, Kai was denied the chance to preform the merge ritual with his twin sister Jo and lead the Gemini Coven, and retaliates by gleefully killing his other siblings, making his youngest siblings Luke and Liv his primary targets. Spending years in a prison world, Damon and Bonnie soon arrive, and Kai torments them until he escapes that world, leaving Bonnie behind. Intending to hunt Luke and Liv down, Kai promises to continue his murder spree on innocent people. Siphoning leftover magic from the Travelers, Kai experiments by torturing Elena, as the humans he tortures eventually die. He eventually comes up on top of the merge, but kills Luke in the process. Kai later teams up with vampire/witch hybrids, and helps them escape their own prison before attacking Jo and Alaric's wedding, killing Jo and seemingly her unborn babies. Kai kills himself to complete his transformation into a Heretic, and so that the Gemini Coven will die with him. His final act of cruelty is linking Bonnie to a comatose Elena, so that Elena can only awaken with Bonnie's death. While he goes through a phase of empathy and regret, it was only a temporary side effect of Luke's soul merging with Kai's. Making a return in season eight, Kai escapes Hell and find himself slowly dying, and considers killing for Cade in order to keep himself alive, before abducting Elena to hand her soul over to Cade, stealing a dagger that could kill Cade as an insurance policy. Upon discovering the survival of his nieces, Josie and Lizzie, Kai goes on a final rampage to try to kill them, taunting Alaric about it as he hunts them down. Incapable of feeling real emotions, Kai's charm only thinly veils this deranged warlock, who does what he does because he "likes being a sociopath."
- Arcadius aka Cade or the devil from season eight, was the worlds first psychic and was once loved and respected by his people. When betrayed and executed, Cade developed a hatred for humanity and in last moments used his power to create a Hellish dimension for him to rule over and feed on souls. After taking his revenge, Cade would corrupt Sybil and Seline into the cannibalistic sirens, leading to countless deaths, corruption and damnation over the centuries; Cade will also take the souls regardless of how small their sin was, if they where remorseful or otherwise good people; It's also discovered that Cade was the force dragging the denizens of the Other Side into Hell upon its destruction; When summoned to Earth, Cade is entertained by the notion of warping innocent three year olds Josie and Lizzie into his new servants, before Damon and Stefan offer themselves in their stead; Cade reveals to Stefan that he wants him specifically for his work as the Ripper and wants him to seek out innocent souls for him to claim; When an attempt to sacrifice Mystic Falls fails, Cade is summoned and has Seline and Sybil burned alive; When Damon regains his humanity, Cade tries to force Damon to kill a hundred strangers or kill Caroline as a sacrifice, before revealing he sent Stefan to track down and kill Elena; later Cade uses Elena as a bargaining chip to find the weapon that can kill him and in the final fight against him, tries to force Damon to choose between Stefan and Elena's soul before trying to claim Damon himself. Initially presented a tragic and noble figure, Cade is not only aware he became the same pure evil he supposedly sought to eradicate, but is proud of it.
Most "loathsome" CM for me would be Ramsay Bolton, but in the way he was supposed to be written, not the whole "poorly written character/Villain Sue" thing. Umbridge also comes close.
An interesting character would be a CM that is completely loathsome or realistic enough to be totally hatable but has enough "kewl" or "magnificient" qualities to balance out, such as Palpatine, Frollo or even Embryo.
And with the Ultraman rewrites, IIRC, neither of these characters turned down the offer of redemption nor was it offered, so we don't need to mention that unless it's stated otherwise.
edited 24th Mar '17 6:59:01 PM by xie323
RIP Toriyama
A late 'Yes' to Cade.
My most hated CM in the 'over-the-top disgusting example of this trope done wrong' way is, hands down, Troy Hicks. A deplorable Villain Sue who was literally written to be as disgusting as possible, and it shows.
He has nothing about his character remotely interesting, cool, or even WELL WRITTEN. He is literally the worst poorly written Creepypasta villain you can think of given publicity in comic book form.
As for most hated/despicable in the 'Woah, this villain gives me the willies and are just DEPRAVED, but at least they are well-written' way, that would PROBABLY be....Ragyo Kiryuin or Shira.
edited 24th Mar '17 7:06:42 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Most loathsome CM for me would be either Koba, Lotso, Captain Vidal, or Peter Stegman. Such well written characters who are so awful you cheer when they get what's coming to them.
Most "loathsome" CM for me is The Night Slasher, mainly for being a waste of Brian Thompson, for having barely any character, and for the fact that the script really has to go out of its way to make sure he's the bad guy (one of his victims was a sexually assaulted child for crying out loud).
"No running in the halls!"
EP for Commander (later Admiral) Zhao:
Who Is He?
Zhao is an arrogant, ambitious high-ranking Fire Nation naval officer.
What Does He Do?
Zhao quickly establishes himself as a rival to Prince Zuko, the 16-year-old prince of the Fire Nation. He had been present at the Agni Kai where Fire Lord Ozai had scarred Zuko's face for refusing to fight him, and Zhao had smiled as the Fire Lord burned his son's face and exiled him. Zhao wastes no opportunities to rub Zuko's failures in his face as the two constantly try to gain the right to capture Avatar Aang for the Fire Nation. At one point where Zhao captures Aang, he tells him that he's not going to kill him, just keep him alive... barely. Zhao also burns several of his men when a mission goes wrong. Things come to a head between Zuko and Zhao toward the end of Season 1, when Zhao attempts to have him blown up, with Zuko stowing away on Zhao's flagship when the admiral sets out to capture the North Pole. There, Zhao reveals his master plan: kill the Moon Spirit (which is a physical entity) and utterly end the Water Tribes. When he reaches the spirit oasis, Zhao captures the Moon Spirit, making the water benders lose their abilities, refusing to let the Spirit go even when told of what the Moon Spirit's death would do. Zhao only relents when Prince Iroh threatens him, only to kill the Moon Spirit anyway because he doesn't like losing, forcing Yui to give up her own life to restore the moon.. Seeing Iroh's wrath inflicted on his men, Zhao tries to flee, only to be confronted by a vengeful Zuko, who defeats him. When the Ocean Spirit grabs Zhao, Zhao, prideful to the last, refuses to be saved by Zuko and is drowned.
None.
Mitigating Circumstances?
None. All he is defined by is arrogance and ambition and has no redeeming qualities.
Heinousness?
He tried to end an entire people and when confronted with what his action would do, didn't care. Runs along the same lines as Ozai with the same mentality. Just in a different part of the world. And while Ozai wants to just Kill It with Fire, Zhao is more insidious when he tells Aang about what he plans to do to him, drawing out Aang's life for as long as it takes.
I'd give him a .
edited 24th Mar '17 8:15:12 PM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Thumbs down to Zhao. Absolutely not.
Care to explain? I wouldn't put an EP up if I didn't think he'd count.
edited 24th Mar '17 8:16:47 PM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Pretty sure we voted Zhao down before, and I'm not seeing anything that constitutes new evidence.
He's nowhere near heinous enough, quite simply. Zhao commits, comparatively, little actual nastiness to guys like Ozai...or even Azula herself.
I looked through this thread and found nothing on Zhao. He's tried things on a larger scale than Azula. Imagine how much shit would hit the fan if Yui hadn't sacrificed her life. And even when told, Zhao didn't care.
edited 24th Mar '17 8:20:39 PM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
RIP Toriyama
Errrrmmm....no. No. Absolutely not. Zhao is no where NEAR this trope.
He is not heinous enough at all, he is constantly made a fool out of and treated as a joke, and he's just not treated as an irredeemable monster in-story or out.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
That wasn't exactly something he fully intended, IIRC. Zhao was barely thinking of the real consequences of his actions.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Not like he's redeemable either. Trying to wipe out the water benders? That's pretty high up, not even Azula thought of wiping out a whole culture. He's not treated like a joke, why else would Fire Lord Ozai give him a fleet to conquer the Water Tribe?
And do you think he'd care if he was told? I think not.
edited 24th Mar '17 8:26:03 PM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
He wasn't told. That's all that matters.
Trying to conquer the Waterbenders? That's not uniquely heinous in Avatar
Wild Child
Zhao. In the context of the Avatar universe as a whole, he's pretty small-potatoes.
And IIRC, Azula was the one who came up with the plan to wipe out the Earthbenders, so she has attempted genocide.
Why so serious?