Needs Help: Doujinshi

The whole set of articles on Doujin are kind of a mess right now.

Doujin is currently a redirect to Doujinshi (Doujin magazines), but the Doujinshi page describes doujin works in general, including videogames... which also have their own page Doujin Soft, claiming to be a subtype of Doujinshi but not linked on that page (which instead references Indie Game). Doujin Game is a redirect to Doujinshi rather than Doujin Soft.

The Doujinshi page is also competing with the very short Doujinshi Index (the only link to which is hidden in a Pothole), by having examples which consist of both actual doujin works and appearances of doujins within a story. Doujinshi Index itself says that it's only for magazines which are fanworks, then says that Touhou is an example...

Oh, and the Fan Fic page says that Doujinshi is its Eastern equivalent, and Fanwork lists Doujinshi and Doujin Soft as subtypes. While doujins are usually Fanworks they don't have to be; there's probably similar misuse on other pages.

I figure the current Doujinshi and Doujin Soft pages need to be merged into an example-less UsefulNotes/Doujin page, and possibly a new trope created for in-universe examples of characters creating and/or consuming doujins (Comiket Episode maybe? Might be covered already between Fan Convention and Sequential Artist). Also, since it's frequently Lost in Translation: bold text pointing out the difference in Japanese between the terms "doujin" (sold in person at conventions) and "indie" (sold through standard commercial channels), and how a doujin is not automatically a Fanwork.

edited 18th Jan '16 9:16:51 AM by Prime32

Opening, although I am dubious that this would be an appropriate page to put into Useful Notes.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I really do not see a problem here aside from making the related pages more clear.

It is no way a Useful Notes and it is a specific form of Fan Work. It is as different as Manga is to Comics.

Doujin Soft are Indie Games yes, which could be made more clear on all pages, but they are produced and sold in the exact same ways as Doujins are in Circles and sold at Comiket. Doujin Soft though also frequently use characters from animes and such too like their manga counterparts, something western Indie Game can not pull off without getting sued.

Touhou from my limited understanding is both, it is a series of Doujin Games but everything about it aside from the sprites and the bullet hell is fan created via HUGE Doujin productions created by fans, there are literally thousands of them and the game's creator just basically Throw It In!.

Maybe a Doujin Artist trope attached as well, they are almost always an Aspiring Artist trying to go mainstream, being overworked, and are always Genre Savvy about manga tropes in general or if Wrong Genre Savvy they are savvy whatever genre they draw.

edited 5th Mar '16 5:51:48 AM by Memers

I wasn't entirely sure about that myself, I just wanted to raise the idea.

Doujin is a popular medium for fanwork, but it's not a type of fanwork, any more than webcomics are a type of fanwork.

The basic idea of a doujin convention is that amateur writers/artists/etc. travel there to share things they made with each other, selling them for little or no profit (the majority of creators actually lose money). While there are plenty of people who use doujins to make money, or go to doujin conventions to buy things without ever creating content of their own (there are even specialist shops which resell doujins)... that's sort of an Elephant in the Living Room - don't expect the purists to be happy about it. Similar to Three Chords and the Truth, some people will see you as a sell-out just for producing something too popular or polished. Demoscene is also similar, I guess.

A Japanese Indie Game would also be sued if it tried that. In Japan, "indie" means you're selling it through commercial channels, and has traditionally had a somewhat negative image (the idea being that if they were really Doing It for the Art, they'd release it as doujin instead).

This is frequently overstated. It's a series of doujin games^note He makes the Bullet Hell ones himself, and the Mascot Fighters are a collaboration with another circle. whose creator is highly permissive about fanworks, as long as those fanworks are published in doujin format (meaning that its body of fanwork is ridiculously vast). He does not actually incorporate stuff from fanworks into the games, and the characters usually have well-defined personalities and backgrounds. He is, however, rather outspoken about supporting the doujin community and in helping doujin creators find avenues to move into commercial work.

Incidentally, while the doujin games are the core of the franchise, Touhou has books and manga which run in mainstream magazines and are equally canon (they're all written by the creator, and events in the books are referenced in the games and vice versa).

EDIT: This forum post might help.

edited 5th Mar '16 6:11:36 PM by Prime32

Clock is set.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

My suggestion is to rename the "Doujinshi" page to just "Doujin" while changing every erroneous mention of "Doujinshi" as encompassing all Doujin to "Doujin". The Doujinshi index should be purged, no use keeping it around considering the amount of Doujinshi that is produced is astronomically high.

Why must Doujinshi index be purged if there are a lot of them? If someone likes a doujinshi enough to make page on it they should be allowed to and allowed to be grouped with other doujinshi.

I still maintain my stance on separating

• actual physical Doujinshi appearances and Comiket visit episode trope seen in Anime and Manga series such as Lucky Star, Negima, Genshiken and Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei.
• and the Doujinshi Artist Character themselves which have their own set of rather meta personality types like possibility Yaoi Fangirl, The Meta Guy, Wrong Genre Savvy, The Match Maker, Cosplay Otaku Fangirl, Aspiring Artist, Workaholic to make the Comiket deadline etc.

The former occasionally use actual real doujins in their works like Negima had a real Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei Yaoi doujin appear in its manga as a gag and a shoutout.

Also we have had 2 animes this year about high school clubs making Doujin Games too, it is a thing. Stella No Mahou and the other I forget the name of. Doujin games have also appeared in D Frag, Haruhi, Haganai and quite a few others.

edited 30th Oct '16 11:18:52 AM by Memers

Agreed there - just because every work in a medium doesn't have a page, that doesn't mean there can't be pages for some of them.

The more important split here, though, is between "works that feature doujins in-universe" and "works that are doujins". I wrote up a draft at Sandbox.DoujinIndex for the latter, which would replace the current Doujinshi Index page.

EDIT: I'd say there's enough Video Game examples to warrant keeping the Doujin Soft page separate, but with the description shortened and more interlinking to the Doujin and Doujin Index pages (making it clear that it's a sub-index of the latter).

edited 30th Oct '16 7:37:10 PM by Prime32

The Doujin Index sandbox looks good.

Sandbox for a "Doujin Index/Video Games" page now up, and video games split from the main page.

edited 3rd Nov '16 10:05:41 AM by Prime32

Cleaned misuse on Fan Art, Fan Fic and Fan Work pages. Leaving off on the Anime Fan Speak page until there's something to replace its entries with. Laconic/Doujinshi also needs to be replaced.

After going through the wicks for the current Doujinshi page:

edited 8th Nov '16 9:10:06 AM by Prime32

Simply put, the one thing that irks me a bit is that in the Doujinshi index, it only has Doujinshis that are already part of a series. As most people who read them are well aware, not every Doujinshi is that.

A good number of Doujinshis are completely original works, but they are usually listed as being a Manga since it's from Japan. I mean just look at the Manga part of the Porn with Plot page. Almost everything listed is a original Doujinshi. So I'm just wondering if the index should really be fixed up a bit.

Reading @ first post, the problem seems to be that people has no idea what doujin, doujinshi and doujin soft refer to.

Thing is, contents of doujin can be original, or using things from licensed works (Fan Work, in other words).

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.

Closing; clock expired with no progress.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman