I dunno, it doesn't seem all that confusing to me. We have a trope about sexy seductive spies, and it's called Mata Hari, after the most famous sexy seductive spy of them all. And whether the real-life Mata Hari was like the popular image of her (and the trope) is immaterial.
edited 24th Oct '14 11:15:49 PM by jamespolk
The page is mostly written about a trope. I wonder if 130+ wicks are giving it proper service, though.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Why do we have The Casanova instead of merely Casanova? Or The Napoleon instead or Napoleon? Simple: to make a clear distinction in the title that it's about characters like these historical people, not the people themselves.
Therefore The Mata Hari would be much clearer in definition what the article is about and in line with those other TV Tropes articles.
A simple rename to The Mata Hari would solve any ambiguity.
"The <Character Name>" have not been observed to have much better usage than "<Character Name>" so I wouldn't do that rename.
Also, is there evidence that people are confusing the character with the trope?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
If calling a trope "The Mata Hari" is not a good thing, then why do we have articles like The Barnum, The Ophelia, The Caligula, The Casanova, The Eeyore, The Igor, The Münchausen, The Napoleon, The Scrooge, The Quisling,...?
Many other articles make a clear distinction between a Real Life person and people based on them. For instance: we have an article about Joan of Arc and for expies of her we have the article: Jeanne d'Archétype. For people based on Jack the Ripper we have Jack The Rip Off. For Bruce Lee Bruce Lee Clone,...
Furthermore I discovered that a lot of links to this page are referring to the historical Mata Hari herself and not somebody based on her. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/relatedsearch.php?term=Main/MataHari
For instance:
World War I, uses her both as a Trope Namer, as well as referring to the historical character in the same sentence.
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. S1 E4 "Eye Spy": Listed as a trope, despite being referred to as "Mentioned by Ward", implying that it's likely a reference to the Real Life Mata Hari, not the expy.
Young Indiana Jones, see "In The Past Everyone Will Be Famous".
You're Cute When You're Angry, see "Live Action TV"
The X-Files, Seasons 4 to 6, see "Season Six", episode "Three Of A Kind".
Show Some Leg, see Real Life.
Mata Hari: Uses the phrase “inspired by the Real Life Mata Hari”.
Fauxreigner, see Real Life.
Beethoven Was an Alien Spy: See, Live-Action, the Dr. Who reference: The Doctor met Mata Hari in a Paris hotel room.
Between My Legs: See Live-Action, where the Dr. Who reference again refers to the real life Mata Hari, not the expy.
Doctor Who S33 Prequel "Pond Life": See the tropes Between My Legs and Visual Pun.
Contractual Purity: See Film: "(In fact, S.O.B. is partly based on her and Edwards' experience with the notable 1970 flop Darling Lili, in which she attempted to break out of her goody-goody image by playing a Mata Hari expy)."
Dress Hits Floor: See live-action, again in reference to the Dr. Who episode.
Fauxreigner: In the Real Life section.
Films Using Rules Of Funny: See the entry on Casino Royale.
First Wave: * Psychic Powers: A telekinetic human girl working for aliens in the appropriately named episode Mata Hari. Kills people by crushing them.
Fringe B Side: A character calls somebody Mata Hari, which is more indicative of the historical character.
Scooby-Doo: "The Backstage Rage"
- After Daphne points out Scooby having a dog puppet:
Historical Beauty Update: The entry about Shadow Hearts refers to the historical Mata Hari.
...
edited 6th Nov '14 10:20:10 PM by Patachou
I would not be opposed to adding a 'The' to the name.
"The other things use a <The>" does not mean that this one will benefit from it. Especially since they tend to attract misuse regardless.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
That is true but it would be an improvement over the current and it would free up a Historical Domain Character entry for the real Mata Hari.
Any other more creative names could work as well but I am lacking ideas.
Not opposed to making Mata Hari into The Mata Hari—not for it either, but not opposed, doesn't really matter—but I don't know if the real Margaretha Zelle is important enough to add a Useful Notes page. That could be just as easily accomplished with a paragraph on the trope page just as it is now.
A page would allow us to list her actual appearances in fiction like Joan Of Arc vs Jeanne d'Archétype because as you can see above the misuse is there and it seems rather large
edited 7th Nov '14 11:36:31 AM by Memers
World's Toughest Milkman
Unlike a lot of our other "The <character name>" tropes, this is one where the name is widely used as a description for other people off-wiki, and has been since long before the wiki existed. There's only a handful of personal names that have been turned into general descriptions like that: "Einstein" to refer to someone who's smart, or "Benedict Arnold" to refer to a traitor. And unlike those, we don't have a wealth of alternative terms for "seductive female spy".
Normally, I'm against "The <character name>" tropes, but I think this may be a case where it's appropriate.
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Yeah, I'm for adding The to the page title, but honestly, the term using her name is so much more common than anyone actually talking about her that I honestly didn't know anything about her while still knowing the term.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Some remarks I have to make about the subject:
@ Septimus Heap: I can get why you wouldn't like pages that are called "The Ophelia", "The Napoleon", "The Barnum",... But why are these pages then still here? Is it because people can't come up with better names? Because as long as they are here other tropers will keep creating new articles with a "The" in front of a name. If these "The" names aren't welcome on this site: why not change them all to things along side the lines of "Joan of Arc archetype?" Might be a good topic for a forum, some day.
@ gallium: I don't know is the real Margaretha Zelle is important enough to add a Useful Notes page. Well, we do have Useful Notes pages for other historical domain characters who are really not that overabundantly used in popular culture: Ralph Bagnold, Gotz Von Berlichingen, Lampião, Cabeza De Vaca,... I'm not sure what TV Tropes' policy is, but I vaguely remember something about "there's no such thing as notability", so I guess we don't have to remove those pages. Compared to those historical characters, however, Mata Hari is a real legend. She is referenced to this day and has inspired countless films, comic strips, novels and archetypical seductive spies based on her. I could easily write a Useful Notes page about her and add a truckload of popular culture references to her if that is mandatory. And yes, it's true that the real Mata Hari wasn't really as good a spy as she is depicted in popular culture, but that's a phenomenon that can be found with many real-life people. Take Billy the Kid, whose reputation as an outlaw is also massively exaggarated compared to his actual body count: 4 people. That's how legends are born: there's always a huge gap between reality and fantasy. That's why these useful notes pages come in handy too. They separate myth from fact.
@ Xtifr: "Benedict Arnold" is a byword for traitor only in the USA. In the rest of the world he is fairly obscure. The first time I every heard of him was thanks to that Simpsons Halloween episode where he appears as a member of the Jury of the Damned. But that's besides the point here and I get what you're getting at. Many people across the world may have heard of Mata Hari and vaguely know she was a sexy seductive spy and stripper, but don't know nothing else about her. That's why a Useful Notes page could really help to put her into some historical context. My knowledge of Benedict Arnold at this point is the same: he lived during America's War of Independence and he traited the USA by collaborating with the British. That's it.
edited 14th Nov '14 5:26:52 AM by Patachou
Friends forevermore
A "The" won't help anything. The best move is probably a full rename.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well, you are free to make a Useful Notes page on the real Mata Hari.
Disagree. This is a pretty iconic concept. As other people have noted in this thread, "Mata Hari" as shorthand for "sexy lady spy" is better known than the actual Mata Hari.
I don't mind the name Mata Hari being used to describe the seductive sexy spy character. There have been sexy female spies before and after her, but none of them captured quite the public and creators' imagination as strongly. Even The Other Wiki says: "The idea of an exotic dancer working as a lethal double agent using her powers of seduction to extract military secrets from her many lovers made Mata Hari an enduring archetype of the femme fatale." I only strive for making it clear from the title on that the article is about characters like her instead of being about her, so The Mata Hari, Mata Hari archetype (in line with Jeanne d'Archétype), Mata Hari Expy, Mata Hari Clone, Mata Hari-esque spy or something among those lines would make matters more clear.
I will create a Useful Notes page for Mata Hari in the coming future, but first I would like to have this case settled, to avoid duplicate page issues.
Clock is set.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
OK, added a crowner, on advice of a fellow troper (Telcontar) to see if we can reach a consensus with this issue? Vote for your best pick:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/crowner.php/SingleProposition/RenameThisTrope,
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/crowner.php/SingleProposition/RenameThisTrope/MataHari
edited 25th Dec '14 6:53:52 AM by Patachou
These are links to a createcrowner page. I've hooked an actual rename crowner.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Why not add a second option to the crowner? "Add a 'The' to 'Mata Hari' - 'The Mata Hari'. That way, there won't be a confusion over whether it's a trope or the Trope Namer herself.
Single Proposition crowners allow only one option. Also, adding a "The" is still a rename.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Grand Poobah of Crimestrikers
I have a suggestion for a new name: Femme Fatale Spy. I think it clearly conveys the essence of the character. And yes, we should have a Useful Notes page on the real Mata Hari.
"But... nobody told me I needed a signature!"
Crown Description:
What would be the best way to fix the page?
I noticed that the page Mata Hari is not about the real-life Mata Hari, but about characters that are expies of her.
This is quite confusing. Most links to the article are actually referring to the historical character, not sensual female spies In the Style of Mata Hari, like the article implies. It's also understandable why people think the article is about her: there's a small bio about her in the description and her photograph illustrates the article.
Also, the real-life Mata Hari wasn't really like the numerous sexy female spies based on her. Her espionage activities weren't particularly of use to her bosses. After her execution she was made into a much more important spy than she was in Real Life. The same aplies to her Public Image as a sexy seductive woman who went to bed with anyone. All more legend than reality.
I would solve the problem by making a UsefulNotes/MataHari page about the real life person and change the name of the Mata Hari page into something like Mata Hari Expy or The Mata Hari. Or perhaps a more general name, like Sexy Sensual Spy or Sexy Espionage.
edited 24th Oct '14 1:33:25 PM by Patachou