Hero Critique Thread (Because it's about damn time for this too!)

In real life? Obviously no.

In a fantasy setting with angels that can create Heaven? I would say yes.

Heaven differs from people to people. Even Christianity haven't figure what is truly heaven.

That is why I don't specify the details, I just set up the system. I show that people still remain able to talk to each other and that everyone that manage to found its way to it is happy, especially compared to the past.

The whole arc with the angels is. More a allegory of how so far one should go into wishing to be happy , angels aren't perfect and they can ruin their own plans a lot of times. Bran, being The Heart is the one that reminds them of their real reason for their plan, not only duty, but genuine altruism and that while Utopia Justifies the Means, the means are important too.

Basically, the angels stop acting like computers that calculate how much they should do without caring for individual human emotions, until they start adding human emotions to their equations, which improve them a bit, A really important bit.

So how is morality enforced in this world?

In what you mean enforced? Everyone follows someone else moral code, with its own modifications based from the individual

Morality is not subjective or non existent, there a ideal way to act, that we don't know it is other thing.

And about angels in universe enforcing their morality, they are actually pretty relaxed about that, just follow the Winged Code (no murder, theft and violence without enought reasons to justify it).

Angels are utilitarians, they believe in getting the best of all possible worlds

So people's moral values are "modified" to fit this objective morality? As in their personalities are altered?

Their values might change, but besides someone really messed up, is implied that everyone everyone will become nicer.

And no, their personalities wouldn't change, they will still being themselves.

In other words, brainwashing.

If you want define it like that, do it but then literally everything is brainwashing, Is just moving humans to a whole different environment where they finally can exist in eternal happiness, obviously is not gonna let awful people being awful

No, because brainwashing directly implies the lack of choice in the matter. If you said humanity will be moved into a post-scarcity world where issues are discussed and resolved peacefully, that will be fine, but that's not what you said.

But that just happens with extra bad people , after that then everyone will have peaceful lifes and occasional disagreements that will be solved peacefully.

You seems to believe that everyone will be brainwashed and end up being a happy drugged man, that isn't the case.

Is just shifting the human nature to a more social one, where everyone can get together with each other, call it brainwashing if you want, but don't say that it will destroy the personalities of everyone.

Which honestly, means that is still brainwashing without the negatives about it. Which means that is OK

Alter, not destroy. So, how about someone like me, who disagree with the objective moral code and calls it brainwashing? I reject having discussions because I believe the other side is brainwashed.

But if someone is just altered enought, the shift is not really something inmoral, especially if is done in a way that the person can have a better life, with no violence or conflict. We have therapy to alter behaviors, the "brainwashing" is just changing some behaviors for the better.

Is brainwashing, in the sense that some things are changed. You wouldnt lose yourself, no one will lose itself. They just will stop thinking in violent ways, and not even a lot.

Basically, your Typical case of The Singularity, or more specifically, The Omega Point, which fit perfectly with all the religious analogy.

And about yourself, dont worry, You probably wouldnt be changed at all unless you want murder people or something bad like that.

And yeah, the entire thing is about justifying something that would be see as a Esoteric Happy Ending for other stories.

edited 15th Jan '18 3:33:46 PM by KazuyaProta

I believe the point he/she is making is that brainwashing, by itself, is immoral, however you attempt to justify it.

What I'm getting from what you're saying is that there isn't a loss of individuality at all, but rather that people who would normally be violent are effectively rehabilitated, as if putting them through decades of anger management, therapy, and yoga classes, condensed down to the space of an instant (or however long it takes to work), allowing them to essentially become the people they'd be if they overcame their flaws. Am I understanding correctly? Because that's an important distinction.

edited 15th Jan '18 8:55:10 PM by Dragon573

You are right, the whole change is turning them into the best version of themselves, the goal is not punish evil, but create a world where evil dont exist anymore, even if they have to recreate reality itself to create it.

The situation is not mean to be realistic (albeit, in a setting with demons, angels and other gods, something can be realistic?), but rather based on literalist Universalist versions of the Paradise, is literally Paradise, everything is good even if it not makes sense.

edited 15th Jan '18 11:28:45 PM by KazuyaProta

You're treating humans like robots. You convince people they're wrong through reason and empathy, not screwing with their heads. If your idea was considered to be against the moral code and was removed from your head, will you be okay with that?

Edit: Objective morality has always been the subject of debate between thousands, but it is not the point of this thread. I am not an expert on nor represent objective morality. My personal view on the issue is relevant only in that there are plenty of individuals that would agree with me, but I also admit there exist people who believe the opposite. If you wish to stick to your idea and risk alienating many, proceed. Perhaps you would make a more compelling case in your story with more context and good writing, but I would probably never agree on principle. Run it through others from a multitude of sources to get an objective review.

edited 16th Jan '18 1:50:45 AM by Ikedatakeshi

Name: Veronica "Vee" Symms

Age: 17

Personality: Normally, Vee is a Deadpan Snarker with a meme-tastic sense of humor. She generally speaks in a Daria-esque Creepy Monotone. She finds everyday people and happenings strange, if mildly amusing. She's prone to Brutal Honesty whether intentionally or not. She cares about her parents and friends, but everyone outside of that could probably die in a firey apocalypse and she'd only complain about the temperature. She's also an extremely objective person, as such, when talking about her work, she can easily go into Nightmare Fuel Station Attendant levels of detail. This extends into her worldview, she freely accepts that Humans Are Flawed and Humans Are Bastards, but she has little in the way of personal opinions or moral concerns. She is also painfully aware of how awkward she comes across, and is very self-deprecating. She often doesn't immediately recognize, or has trouble processing, her emotions, because she is so used to objectivity. When her father is killed, she doesn't immediately understand why she's reacting the way she is, and she's confused when she can't control herself.. When Paul breaks up with her, she's surprised that it actually upsets her. Outside of that, she's pretty much an Emotionless Girl, maybe The Stoic, if we're being generous.

On a mission, however, this goes completely out the window. She takes Punch-Clock Villain to it's logical, terrifying extreme. In combat, she is a ruthless psychopath, Cold Sniper, and a Genius Bruiser with a complete Lack of Empathy. She is completely detached and goal-oriented. She has no feelings one way or the other, she doesn't like or dislike what she does. Vee is probably one of the only people that could say "Nothing Personal" with complete sincerity. When she is in these situations, or discussing these kinds of topics, her narration is very blunt and factual, with very little of her humor shining through. In this state, pretty much her only redeeming traits are a general adherance to Pragmatic Villainy, and the fact that she's contracted to target people far worse than her. Usually.

Abilities: Vee is a highly-trained, highly-intelligent mercenary, a Lightning Bruiser, a Torture Technician, and a complete Combat Pragmatist. She's also fairly impressive at Xanatos Speed Chess, often being very difficult to outwit, let alone defeat. She also uses math to calculate her shots, much like Deadshot, giving her some extremely Improbable Aiming Skills. Despite having No Social Skills to speak of, she's also quite The Social Expert, being able to read people and situations fairly easily.

Weaknesses: Being a teenage girl, she's very easy to subdue when she can't rely on speed, intellect or weapons. Any siginficant injuries put her down for good. She also has No Social Skills, which makes it nigh impossible for her to manipulate people or talk her way out of dangerous situations. In normal situations, she's also prone to Brutal Honesty, which can make her very awkward or even unlikeable. She also sucks at dealing with whatever emotions she does have.

Goals: Process her feelings for Paul, be normal, and complete her missions to the best of her ability.

Motivation: Mission-wise, Vee has virtually no motive other than obligation. Maybe sees her work as Necessary Evil. In her everyday life, Vee is driven by her feelings for Paul, her friends and her family, some conflict comes from the fact that her mother is disgusted by her and what she does for a living.

Role in the story: Sociopathic Hero, Socially Awkward Hero, Bad Guys Do the Dirty Work.

Backstory: Vee was diagnosed with autism at the age of nine. Throughout her childhood, she retaliated violently towards any verbal or physical provocation. This culminated in a man trying to abduct her from a mall, and her stabbing him to death with a display knife. As her father was a Marine at the time, this drew the attention of The Piper Agency, an organisation that trains children from military families to become contractors for the US government. As the alternative was juvie and then three years in prison, Vee's parents accepted the Agency's offer. The incident was buried, they were relocated to Miami, and Vee was trained as an asset.

Relevant Tropes:

Adorkable: In her everyday life.

Bad Guys Do the Dirty Work: The Piper Agency.

Black Eyes of Evil: Her eyes are a lifeless, dark brown.

Child Soldiers: She is one. Piper specializes in training them.

Combat Pragmatist: Like you wouldn't believe.

Creepy Child: Yup.

Creepy Monotone

Deadpan Snarker: Most definitely.

Dissonant Serenity: Is perfectly calm, even while torturing someone for intel.

Emotionless Girl: She has an incredibly flat affect, normal among people with autism. She seems to be practically incapable of anger.

Even Evil Has Standards/Evil Me Scares Me: A large part of her Character Development.

Fragile Speedster: One or two good hits is enough to take her out.

Holly Wood Autism: Maybe zig-zaged. Her behavior and mannerisms are based off myself and other people I know with autism. Minus the whole "sociopath" angle.

Kid Hero: Gone Horribly Right.

Lack of Empathy: There are the people she likes. Then there's everyone else. Guess where everyone else falls under.

Nightmare Fuel Station Attendant: With her line of work, just some of the things she can freely discuss make her this.

Professional Killer: Her role at Piper.

Punch-Clock Villain: It's debatable that she'd even want to be a contractor if she weren't part of Piper.

Sociopathic Hero: How else would you describe a remorseless killer? Even if her work largely makes the world a better place.

The Spock: She is very cold and logical.

True Neutral: More or less her alignment.

Torture Technician: During an "interrogation", she paralyzes her victim right off the bat.

Tranquil Fury: When Paul finds out about Piper, and they consider killing him. Vee calmly asks them how long they'd expect to outlive Paul if they did.

Unstoppable Rage: Don't hurt the people she cares about. Not if you want an open casket.

Villain Protagonist: Descends into this a lot.

Uh... Having a autist character that if anything, act more like a sociopath is pretty messy, even if is not villainous.

About she herself, how she can be Adorkable if she is a sociopath like, all the time?

Also, how her autism affects her? Unless is a very mild one, I fail to see a autist as a skilled assasin.

And we on the autism spectrum would love you to keep thinking so.

Makes it easier on us.

edited 16th Jan '18 8:32:46 PM by Dragon573

Kazuya Prota, hi, I'm not sure I explained myself properly before.

1. I did base her on myself and other people I know with autism, everything from worldview, Lack of Empathy to sense of humor (heyo).

2. The idea is that she basically acts like two different people, in normal situations she's an Adorkable Deadpan Snarker character, but when she's working, or talking about her work, she becomes an emotionless sociopath. This disconnect is meant to be the source of her Character Development, as well as a great source of Black Comedy. So, she isn't a sociopath all the time.

3. I'd recommend watching The Accountant, it's some of her autistic traits that actually make her a skilled assassin. Lack of Empathy, The Spock, The Stoic, etc. Like in the original post, she also has No Social Skills, Brutal Honesty, Creepy Monotone, etc.

I hope this doesn't look like I Can't Take Criticism, I just wanted to clear it up.

Is just just the juxtaposition between autism and sociopathy reminds me to Black Manta from Aquaman, and that isn't a good memory.

So, Adorkable at normal situations, but sociopathic hero in missions? That makes sense.

And no, I dont take that as you dont being able to take criticism, you are just explaining me more about her. That is good.

edited 17th Jan '18 4:16:56 AM by KazuyaProta

Edit- On second thought, I think I'll withhold these specific characters since the "story" they're involved in is something I plan on publishing. ^^; I'll try and find a hero from a "for fun" story to share. Big question, though; is it okay to post canon characters for this, in regards to non-OC centric fanfiction? Like, I didn't make the character, but added/changed certain things for them in my fic. Or is that more for the Fanfiction forum here?

edited 17th Jan '18 1:46:08 PM by KaoticKanine

Honestly, for me, you can publish character from your fanfics here, I would not have issues with that, dunno about the rest of the thread

I saw a couple of Pokemon and MLP characters earlier so I took it that they were fine. I've even been working in a profile for a pair of my Pokemon OC's as a result

I know OCs are welcome I was asking about canon characters being used for this, purely in terms of "fanfic interpretations". Like, one of my major projects (which shouldn't really be a major project since I can't make money off it but whatever lol) is a Sonic "fanfic" and the focus is indeed on the actual characters, not OCs. I do have OCs for it, but they're either minor characters or villains and thus ill fit for this thread, so the canon characters are the only "Heroes" for it. I have added and/or changed things about them that I saw fit, either to "improve" them or because I think it's sensible/cool, but I still try to keep them as close to canon as possible and nevertheless they are not my characters. So would that not be allowed or...?

If not, I guess I could re-visit that Pokemon fanfic I attempted to make long ago and share the Hero characters for that