Redefine and Rename (alt titles crowner 4/9): Amazon Chaser

Does No Guy Wants an Amazon really go back millenia, or is it a creation of today's society with its gender expectations? I don't think the page has a single example older than the mid-twentieth century.

My problem is that I think there clearly is a space for "an Action Girl who is hot" or "a girl who fights is hot", and more to the point, that's basically what this page is trying to be already. Take a look at the last thread and compare the definition most of the people seem to be working with with the description.

Maybe you could call it a Trope Transplant, but I think it's just making it more in line with chronicling the phenomenon the page was trying to chronicle in the first place, but No Guy Wants an Amazon muddled it up and I don't want it to have that much of an impact on the page anymore. What can I say, I have a platonic view of what tropes are.

edited 17th Feb '12 8:23:23 PM by MorganWick

I think that No Guy Wants an Amazon is due to both gender expectations and some people trying to exploit them for various reasons. For example; I know a few guys who believe Western society believes in Abuse Is Okay When It’s Female on Male...which would obviously make them wary of dating an Action Girl.

I asked about whether or not a hot action girl would be tropable. Didn't really get a straight answer but it seems like something that's highly discouraged.

edited 17th Feb '12 8:32:31 PM by captainpat

"Hot action girl" would basically be an Action Girl But Hot!, but a lot of the "Hot X" tropes seem to basically be the same thing (which doesn't justify their existence).

edited 18th Feb '12 1:46:33 AM by MorganWick

For the record, Fetish Fuel Wiki has a "Hot Action Girl" trope article that appears to be "Hot Amazon under a new name".

@King Zeal and anybody else discussing them, women are never Combat Medics in real life. Just so everyone's tracking. They might have the same Military Occupation Specialty as their male counterparts (Sixty-Eight-Whiskey), but they don't walk with us the way the male medics do. They stay behind the wire and treat casualties as they come in, as well as everyday medical issues. I'm not saying they aren't important, because they are, and I appreciate what they do as much as all the other support people we need to operate.

On-topic, however, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with any of these tropes as written. Sometimes misuse is going to happen regardless of how clear the description is or how indicative the name is. That's what curators are for.

edited 18th Feb '12 9:59:35 AM by Martello

Right, I know...but I have read some news stories about female soldiers who went above and beyond and actually performed in combat in order to assist or rescue a comrade. Of course, they are the exception, and not the rule.

But in fiction, Combat Medics are often more proactive.

True, it does happen every so often. I just try to correct unrealistic military depictions when I can.

So anyone have any ideas for new names or redirects?

I think we should try to nail down what the trope should be first:

1. An Action Girl who is attractive? This has questionable tropability, but is closest to the name.
2. A woman who's considered attractive for her fighting prowess? This is the definition the last thread seemed to go by, and is next closest to the name.
3. A woman who has guys fawning over them because of their fighting prowess? (I explained in the OP why I think this is distinct from #2.) This is basically what the current description says, but a rename may be necessary, and does the last clause do enough to justify making it a separate trope rather than listing examples on No Guy Wants an Amazon as "aversions"?
4. A trope about a guy who likes a woman for their fighting prowess? This is probably more tropable, and some of the older examples seem to be taking this route (like the first two Comic Book examples), but I think we'd need to clarify the relationship with Action Girlfriend (which might also be said for #3) and other tropes. And if a rename is strongly advised for #3, it's practically a necessity for this.
5. Something else?
6. A split between two or more of the above (probably #1 or #2 and #3 or #4)?

I think that #2 and #4 could work as separate but connected tropes since some guys like ass kicking women and some women might attract some guys because they kick ass.

The #3 doesn't seem like it happens too often; that a lot of guys fawn over an Action Girl because of butt kicking potential and not other things.

edited 18th Feb '12 9:53:52 PM by darkclaw

"A woman who attracts guys" seems closer to what I meant by #3. The distinction is in what I said late in the OP: a woman can be attractive without having men - I guess "courting" them is the word I may have been looking for.

Is #3 the same as #2, but the guy(s) is/are In-Universe?

Something just hit me: Isn't it true that most Action Girls you see have physiques that look more like those of models rather than athletes? You know, little to no signs of any muscular development (size or definition, doesn't matter which) brought by any regular regimen of physical training?

That's what Hot Amazon was supposed to be in the first place - or at least what I had argued it was at the time of the split. I was overruled and we made Amazonian Beauty to handle the muscular, athletic girls who are attractive to men. I still think that was a mistake. Zoe Saldana in that awful Colombiana film is certainly an Action Girl, but calling her an Amazon is stupid. Gina Carano in Haywire, on the other hand, is most certainly an Amazon.

@ 39: Waif-Fu.

@ Post 39

I think that Action Girl characters are usually made to look like supermodels because Beauty Equals Goodness and to some extent, No Guy Wants an Amazon. If an Action Girl looks like she is not athletic; people can dismiss it more as fantasy. On the other hand; if a woman is a toned athlete, that could bother some people who might feel inadequate about their own athleticism. And if a woman is flat out buff; a lot of people might feel emasculated or weak and people still tend to associate muscles with men and not women, hence a lot of people see buff women as Squick. So, overall it is easier to market supermodel Action Girl types.

It was? When did that happen?

Doesn't that technically cover only hand-to-hand combatant Action Girls, rather than gunslingers like Lara Croft?

I know that. I was just saying, maybe we could use that as a counter-trope to Amazonian Beauty.

edited 22nd Feb '12 10:14:49 AM by MarqFJA

Guns are at least usable by people who are waif thin. The stick thin people look like they'd break their knuckles punching someone.

WARNING: INCOMING Wall of Text!!

Yeah, Amazonian Beauty meant to directly subvert Waif-Fu, Vasquez Always Dies, No Guy Wants an Amazon, Staff Chick and The Heart. This is all because two Super Tropes which we don't (I believe) have: All Women Are Delicate and its corollary, Delicacy Is Beautiful. Men Are Strong and Strong Means Ugly are the polar opposite. From there, it's a sliding scale of figuring out how much of that to subvert. Braun Hilda and No Guy Wants an Amazon are as far into the masculine side of the fence as you can go without having an actual male character.

• The Heart (when female) is pretty much the two Super Tropes in aggregate.

• Distressed Damsel tends to enforce both All Women Are Delicate and Delicacy Is Beautiful by having most distressed damsels being beautiful. Interestingly, even when the character was an Action Girl at first, the second she catches the Distress Ball, she tends to become beautiful to reinforce this. A perfect example is Sonya Blade from Film/Mortal Kombat, who is immediately dressed in a skimpy outfit as soon as she's captured.

• Staff Chick is the first step towards subverting those two Super Tropes by having a girl who can technically defend herself and/or contribute to the group, but does so in a non-physical role. She doesn't have to directly put herself in harms way, so her physicality is of no relevance whatsoever.

• Waif-Fu is not inherently about "beauty" per se, but related because the reason for keeping the waif skinny is so that she is still attractive/cute/adorable.

• Boobs Of Steel is where the girl has a clear attribute associated with beauty (big breasts) but can still beat the crap out of someone with physical strength. It subverts All Women Are Delicate, but tiptoes around Delicacy Is Beautiful.

• Amazonian Beauty is a direct subversion of about aesthetic strength (LOOKING strong) but still being considered attractive enough to flaunt (which is why the trope definition requires either lampshading or fanservice to qualify). It subverts Delicacy Is Beautiful outright, but doesn't touch Al L Women Are Delicate. As stated, a muscular woman can look tough and still be metaphorically made of glass.

• Vasquez Always Dies tries to be "feminist" by subverting All Women Are Delicate while reinforcing Strong Means Ugly (while they don't outright call these women ugly, that's the implications when she's the one who dies and the more delicate woman lives).

• Hot Amazon is an interesting neutrality. It subverts All Women Are Delicate but makes physical attractiveness (beauty) a non-issue. She could be a three-eyed snot monster that beats up space pirates for a hobby and still qualifies so long as someone is attracted to it.

edited 22nd Feb '12 10:43:59 AM by KingZeal

So is there anything that needs to be fixed for this specific trope?

Yes. The misuse is very high for what it's currently defined as. Something needs to be done.

I'll do a wick check presently.

Incorrect:

• Abusively Sexy Woman
• Adrenaline Makeover
• A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum
• Akiko Hiramatsu
• Always Someone Better
• Americas Next Top Model
• Animal Motifs
• Anime
• Anime
• Anime & Manga
• Anime & Manga
• Arabian Hero Cycles
• A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy
• Avatar: The Last Airbender "The Warriors of Kyoshi"
• Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes
• Badass Israeli
• Battle Harem
• Beauty Is Never Tarnished
• Berserk
• Bleach 2.2
• Bokukko
• Brave Soul
• Bright Reversions
• Bucket Booby-Trap
• Castlevania
• Cerebus
• Chekhov's Gunman

Correct:

• All You Need Is Love
• Avatar RDA
• Baccano!
• Batman
• Black Lagoon
• Buffy the Vampire Slayer S2E10 "What's My Line?: Part 2"

Not Sure:

• Action Girlfriend
• All Amazons Want Hercules
• Animorphs
• Baldur's Gate: Main Party Members
• Batman: The Brave and the Bold
• Black Butler
• Brütal Legend
• Charles Atlas Superpower

No Context:

• Adventure Time
• Anime & Manga
• Armored Core: All as One
• A View To A Kill
• Birds Of Prey
• Bomb Queen
• Canfyre
• Cat's Eye
• Challenger

So, approximately 81% misuse looking at those I could determine correct or not. That may be the most misused trope I have ever seen in TRS.

edited 22nd Feb '12 11:27:03 AM by ccoa

• Most most of the "not sures" are wrong. They're zero-context examples used as a description of a character. I'm starting to realize that this is not a character trope—it is an event trope. In other words, this is a reaction one character has toward another.

edited 22nd Feb '12 12:12:07 PM by KingZeal

@Deboss: Yes, but Action Girls like Lara Croft do a lot of running, rolling, jumping, vine-swinging, and similar physical feats on a rather regular basis, such that you'd at least expect them to have a greater degree of muscular definition - not necessarily Bruce Lee-level, of course.

This is why I advocate retooling (and renaming) the trope outright into a trope for characters having such a reaction to either a particular Action Girl or all Action Girls, similar to Chubby Chaser and Likes Older Women. After all, it is supposed to be the Opposite Trope to No Guy Wants an Amazon, which is defined in a similar manner to my proposed redefinition. Leave the "hot action girl" to the Fetish Fuel Wiki's own Hot Action Girl trope.

edited 22nd Feb '12 12:40:52 PM by MarqFJA

Like I said before, it might help if we create the All Women Are Delicate and Delicacy Is Beautiful Super Tropes.

Missing Super Trope really is a major problem around here.