Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.
Here's a courtesy link: TRS page
. And Badass page with its subtropes. You can also visit the sandbox page here.
Noted Problems include:
- Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
- Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
- Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.
Suggested things to do include:
- Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
- Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
- Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.
There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.
Edited by Berrenta on May 15th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM
The Unknown Unknown
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
While I do agree with the sentiment, I feel as if that may introduce decay like the similarly named Action Girl.
edited 14th Apr '17 1:21:44 PM by erazor0707
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
As I understood it, the issue is primarily that we want to get "badass" out of trope names period given its meaninglessness. I'm of the opinion that what's currently covered by Badass Princess is indeed tropeworthy, but the "Badass X" name probably ought to change.
edited 14th Apr '17 4:02:32 PM by nrjxll
Reading the Badass Princess description as written really makes me feel like it sn't particularly trope worthy, just based on its structure. Though certain paragraphs may be.
This I like. As it's essentially Authority Equals Asskicking applied the the imagery of a beautiful princess and her protective knight/soldiers/other underlings.
And it is the only part of it that's really worth saving.
The rest can essentially be filed under its laconic, which is a combination of two things we said we were going to mostly get rid of or extremely vet.
Action Girl was deemed to essentially be 'Female Badass" or "Female with Moment of Awesome" means that Royal Female Badass = Royal Badass = Badass X = we don't want these anymore.
also to tweak Memer's descriptions if I may
- Warrior Noble (Which covers both Memer's General King and a unisex Warrior Prince):This is where a member of royalty actually takes part in battle themself, especially as a commander. (the description can go on about how it varies if you're prince/ss or King/Queen)
—-
- The Right For Princess To Fight (covers Memer's Warrior Princess): Usually the lowest rung in the direct line of succession. All she wants to do is to be able to fight on the frontlines like any other Warrior Noble, but will spend just as much time fighting Stay in the Kitchen issues just trying to pull their own weight as well as fighting attempts to get married off to another country's prince/king.
—
Pretty Princess Powerhouse (Covers the original Badass Princess): A beautiful princess who still carries Authority Equals Asskicking, making her surprisingly among the most dangerous or powerful of anyone in the castle.
edited 14th Apr '17 4:47:49 PM by acrobox
I greatly disagree with lumping kings with princes. As the General King you are in complete charge and everything is based on how you do. Princes still answer to the king as well as generals and agents of the king, many times it a plot point with the prince bumping heads with others in the military, even if the other military are portrayed as evil. They see him as a spoiled brat and such, it doesn't matter if they are an Evil Prince or not. If they are king you serve them regardless My Country, Right or Wrong.
It's the difference between a General and a privileged Captain, which is often described as their respective ranks.
Princesses are even more so at the mercy of the hierarchy and such due to women get traded in royal politics not men.
Hecj even actively Rebellious Princess are portrayed as more delinquents or the good ones while the king is evil. Seriously I can count the number of evil rebellious princesses on that page on one hand and those mostly say they are not actually princesses.
Evil Prince is more common as The Good Prince on the opposite side of things.
edited 15th Apr '17 1:22:58 AM by Memers
Thats covered by the second trope.
Anyone else want to chime in on if Warrior Noble needs a split between between Prince(Princess) and King(Queen)?
I'd also like to add that Warrior Prince is already being used as a unisex trope despite the title. And has a fair amount of King examples too. Look at the examples on the page. Basically my argument is that Warrior Prince doesnt need to change, except maybe a title change if people are triggered by Prince being a gendered/specific ranked term
The distinction Memer's is making about princesses having a harder time I agree we could make into the second trope.
If we want to keep Badass Princess at all, based on the text already on its page, thats what the third trope can be for. and then just remove the Badass X examples.
This solution takes the least amount of work. One rename (potentially two) and a clenaup effort on Badass Princess (what this thread is actually for) and one new TLP.
edited 15th Apr '17 9:03:20 AM by acrobox
I'm inclined to agree with Memers that there is a meaningful difference between actual ruling royalty and those who aren't.
I don't think Warrior Noble needs a gender split. It's becoming more and more common for women fighting to be treated the same as men fighting, and we can have a gender specific sister trope for when the women have to fight for the right to fight.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
I disagree because of the way the stereotypes used in works differ greatly by gender, many other tropes go into those differences as well which is why they are also split and those differences are fully applicable here, but whatever save that for later.
What are your feelings on Ruling Royalty vs Princes?
edited 16th Apr '17 11:39:25 AM by Memers
I'm conflicted on the gender division.
Firstly, there are examples of female characters fitting the Warrior Prince trope (e.g. Azula from ATLA), but there are obviously examples of Warrior Princess (e.g. Merida from Brave). I expect there are male characters who may more fit Warrior Princess, also, where they are actively discouraged from fighting and still do. If we treat that as the distinction, and make this clear, perhaps it should be mentioned that character of any gender can fit the trope, regardless of name, should they fit it.
Or, perhaps as a compromise, to have the one Warrior Noble trope with variations (and redirects).
edited 17th Apr '17 5:41:59 AM by lakingsif
OH MY GOD; MY PARENTS ARE GARDENIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!!
I like the idea of Pretty Princess Powerhouse. It gets away from "badass+trait", which is what we want, while emphasizing the Hidde Badass aspect of the trope (it's already on that index, by the way) and the only work it would require is a clean up after the rename.
like the name
So maybe 4 tropes?
- Warrior In Chief / General King - Both King (or ruler/chief etc) and front line military commander (new trope, needs TLP)
- Warrior Noble - any member of the nobility that fights for their nation (renamed gender neutral Warrior Prince)
- Right To Fight Princess - Princess fights in a society that typically prohibits or limits princesses fighting (new trope, needs TLP)
- Pretty Princess Powerhouse - Looks like a delicate princess but fights better than the people who serve her (Renamed and cleaned up Badass Princess)
I think that the last two would often be used in place of each other, but that seems like the best split.
The Wanderer
I feel like shortening Pretty Princess Powerhouse to Princess Powerhouse would work better.
Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.
Princess Powerhouse, pretty or not, sounds more like Politically-Active Princess than a physically fighting princess, I think.
The Unknown Unknown
... How?
I feel like you need the Pretty to indicate the delicate look. This wouldn't apply to say Brawn Hilda who is outwardly imposing.
edited 18th Apr '17 7:56:56 PM by acrobox
Agreed. Are we ready for a crowner now or does anyone else have anything to add to the discussion?
I'd say moving to crowner would be effective, as the trope appears to have been misused quite a lot. Here's a Wick Check I did where half the examples either had no context or not enough context.
2. All Girls Want Bad Boys.Music: Pothole, when a woman imagines herself as a viking princess killing her potential suitors.
3. ImageSource.Anime And Manga: Image list, not really relevant.
4. Bare-Fisted Monk: A pothole which is the only part of this ZCE besides the work's title.
5. Characters.Behind The Veil: ZCE.
6. Characters.Bloodlines: Lists character's royal position and her ability to use magic to win fights.
7. Cataclysm Backstory: Linked as a justification for how a kidnapped princess managed to defeat her captor.
8. Literature.Chronicle Of The Unhewn Throne: Just lists the character's name, ZCE.
9. Characters.Chronicles Of Osota: Character is described as well-trained and good at archery, nothing is mentioned of her royal status besides eventually becoming Queen, although that is in spoiler tags.
10. Pantheon.Colors: Used in an obnoxious series of potholes where a character is described as the "Princess of the Vermilion Empire that kicks ass." It is unclear if she kicks ass, the empire kicks ass, or whether she is the only one of the princesses capable of outmatching a rectum.
11. Damsel out of Distress: Three links.
- Mentioned in a list of tropes to compare this one to.
- Used as a Pothole in the place of actually describing one of the characters from Warlord of Mars or why that one character fits the trope.
- Used as an adjective to describe Jasmine.
12. ImageLinks.Dangerously Short Skirt: Pothole in Azula's name, presumably to add credence to the "dangerously" part of the trope and the later mention of "ass-kicking" on the volley ball court.
13. Pantheon.Disguises: Pothole in Lucina's portfolio.
14. YMMV.Disney Princess: Pothole used to point out the differences between Princess Leia and the stereotypical Disney Princess.
15. Literature.Dragonlance: ZCE. Lists two names, and besides the fact that they are related, no reason is given for how they fit any part of the trope.
16. Characters.Dragon Quest IV: Commented out ZCE.
17. FanFic.Elementals Of Harmony: Potholed in a Royals Who Actually Do Something example to describe a princess who channels the heat death of the universe, but not included in the actual trope list.
18. Series.Fantaghiro: Used in a bifurcated example (it's listed as Badass Princess.) Of the two characters described, the first is given no context while the second is given a description befitting Tomboy Princess, since it mentions using a slingshot, wearing trousers, and being a Tomboy Princess.
19. ShipToShipCombat.Fire Emblem: Sinkhole, since the entry has no relation to the character's royalty or adeptness at combat.
20. Characters.Fire Emblem On Forums: ZCE
21. Characters.Fire Emblem The Sacred Stones: Character is described at being adept at swordplay despite relative inexperience, but her royal status is never mentioned. There are also two potholes around characters that are given the title "Battle Princess."
22. Literature.First Sword Chronicles: ZCE
23. Characters.For Good: ZCE, alongside being smashed together against Action Girl.
24. Characters.Go Princess Pretty Cure: Character is mentioned as wanting to bring down the evil that possessed her, but again, no royal status is mentioned.
25. Characters.Hakuouki: No mention made of royalty; she is listed as a "badass" not because she can fight, but because she is opinionated and outspoken.
26. WMG.Injustice Gods Among Us: Potholed in a theoretical dialogue where a character demeans a royal warrior by calling her "princess." The subject is both a badass and a princess, but the speaker is using "princess" as a type of insult, so this appears to be mis-use.
27. Characters.Inu Yasha Filler Movies And Video Games Characters: Character is described as very powerful and it's mentioned that it isn't actually a princess, but something posing as one.
28. Literature.John Carter Of Mars: ZCE.
29. Music.Jonathan Coulton: Linked twice.
- Once in a ZCE.
- Used at the end of a Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu? entry to punctuate the princess's achievement.
30. Kid Hero: Pothole; a character's name is mentioned with this linked, but nothing further discussing her royal or "badass" qualities are mentioned.
31. LightNovel.Kono Subarashii Sekai Ni Shukufuku O: Used as a Sink Hole in a spoiler tag.
32. Characters.Magi Al Thamen: Zero Context Example.
33. Characters.Masters Of The Universe: "She ain't called the Princess of Power for nothing."
34. Matchmaker Crush: Sinkhole to describe "Princess Camilla" from Fire Emblem Fates. The example itself gives no reason for how she fits the trope.
35. MegaMan NT Warrior: Princess character fights in "joins in the rest of the series battles."
36. MSF High IRC:
- One character is the daughter of an "Alicorn of War." Besides that, there's zero context. ZCE
- A gender-bended character is more than willing to punch people in the face with fire.
37. Playing with Fire: Pothole on the word "princess" when used to describe a princess with fire powers.
38. Power Academy Antagonists: ZCE. Only mentions one character was nicknamed "Ice Princess."
39. Private Tutor: Potholed to describe Arya Stark's training in swordsmanship.
40. Super Mario 3D World: A character, Peach, is described as just as capable as non-princesses.
41. T'ai Fu: Wrath of the Tiger:
- ZCE, character name and relationship.
- Used in a pothole as a hook, when mentioning that one character will have to fight the Badass Princess to proceed.
42. Tales of the Branion Realm:
- Lists subversions, or more accurately, characters that are not princesses.
- Mentioned in the Warrior Prince entry to point out overlap between the two due to the use of unisex titles.
43. Tanken Driland: Mikoto is a "capable ass-kicker," no mention of royalty.
44. The Dresden Fillies: Potholed to describe Luna before going into her Big Damn Heroes moment.
45. The Lord of the Rings Film Trilogy: Éowyn is described as fighting alongside her male compatriots. Again, no mention of her royalty.
46. The Omniverse:
- One princess fought someone named Gilgamesh with a powerful move.
- Another princess spent years in combat.
- Another princess lead an army of untrained people to conquest.
47. Thieves & Kings: Straight ZCE.
48. Undefeated Bahamut Chronicle: Pothole in the caption to identify a certain character.
49. Undefeated Bahamut Chronicle: A character is said to be at the frontlines of every fight. No mention of royalty in the example.
50. Video Games: Linked when describing Lucina. It's not really elaborated upon but whatever.
2. Characters.Behind The Veil: ZCE.
3. Characters.Bloodlines: Lists character's royal position and her ability to use magic to win fights.
4. Literature.Chronicle Of The Unhewn Throne: Just lists the character's name, ZCE.
5. Characters.Chronicles Of Osota: Character is described as well-trained and good at archery, nothing is mentioned of her royal status besides eventually becoming Queen, although that is in spoiler tags.
6. Literature.Dragonlance: ZCE. Lists two names, and besides the fact that they are related, no reason is given for how they fit any part of the trope.
7. Characters.Dragon Quest IV: Commented out ZCE.
8. Series.Fantaghiro: Used in a bifurcated example (it's listed as Badass Princess.) Of the two characters described, the first is given no context while the second is given a description befitting Tomboy Princess, since it mentions using a slingshot, wearing trousers, and being a Tomboy Princess.
9. Characters.Fire Emblem On Forums: ZCE
10. Characters.Fire Emblem The Sacred Stones: Character is described at being adept at swordplay despite relative inexperience, but her royal status is never mentioned. There are also two potholes around characters that are given the title "Battle Princess."
11. Literature.First Sword Chronicles: ZCE
12. Characters.For Good: ZCE, alongside being smashed together against Action Girl.
13. Characters.Go Princess Pretty Cure: Character is mentioned as wanting to bring down the evil that possessed her, but again, no royal status is mentioned.
14. Characters.Hakuouki: No mention made of royalty; she is listed as a "badass" not because she can fight, but because she is opinionated and outspoken.
15. Characters.Inu Yasha Filler Movies And Video Games Characters: Character is described as very powerful and it's mentioned that it isn't actually a princess, but something posing as one.
16. Literature.John Carter Of Mars: ZCE.
17. Music.Jonathan Coulton: Linked twice.
- Once in a ZCE.
18. Characters.Magi Al Thamen: Zero Context Example.
19. Characters.Masters Of The Universe: "She ain't called the Princess of Power for nothing."
20. MegaMan NT Warrior: Princess character fights in "joins in the rest of the series battles."
21. MSF High IRC:
- One character is the daughter of an "Alicorn of War." Besides that, there's zero context. ZCE
- A gender-bended character is more than willing to punch people in the face with fire.
22. Power Academy Antagonists: ZCE. Only mentions one character was nicknamed "Ice Princess."
23. Super Mario 3D World: A character, Peach, is described as just as capable as non-princesses.
24. T'ai Fu: Wrath of the Tiger:
- ZCE, character name and relationship.
25. Tales of the Branion Realm:
- Lists subversions, or more accurately, characters that are not princesses.
26. Tanken Driland: Mikoto is a "capable ass-kicker," no mention of royalty.
27. The Lord of the Rings Film Trilogy: Éowyn is described as fighting alongside her male compatriots. Again, no mention of her royalty.
28. The Omniverse:
- One princess fought someone named Gilgamesh with a powerful move.
- Another princess spent years in combat.
- Another princess lead an army of untrained people to conquest.
29. Thieves & Kings: Straight ZCE.
30. Undefeated Bahamut Chronicle: A character is said to be at the frontlines of every fight. No mention of royalty in the example.
1. Characters.Behind The Veil: ZCE.
2. Literature.Chronicle Of The Unhewn Throne: Just lists the character's name, ZCE.
3. Literature.Dragonlance: ZCE. Lists two names, and besides the fact that they are related, no reason is given for how they fit any part of the trope.
4. Series.Fantaghiro: Used in a bifurcated example (it's listed as Badass Princess.) Of the two characters described, the first is given no context while the second is given a description befitting Tomboy Princess, since it mentions using a slingshot, wearing trousers, and being a Tomboy Princess.
5. Characters.Dragon Quest IV: Commented out ZCE.
6. Characters.Fire Emblem On Forums: ZCE
7. Literature.First Sword Chronicles: ZCE
8. Characters.For Good: ZCE, alongside being smashed together against Action Girl.
9. Literature.John Carter Of Mars: ZCE.
10. Music.Jonathan Coulton: Linked twice.
- Once in a ZCE.
11. MSF High IRC:
- One character is the daughter of an "Alicorn of War." Besides that, there's zero context. ZCE
12. Power Academy Antagonists: ZCE. Only mentions one character was nicknamed "Ice Princess."
13. Tales of the Branion Realm:
- Lists subversions, or more accurately, characters that are not princesses. ZCE
14. T'ai Fu: Wrath of the Tiger:
- ZCE, character name and relationship.
15. Thieves & Kings: Straight ZCE.
2. Characters.Fire Emblem The Sacred Stones: Character is described at being adept at swordplay despite relative inexperience, but her royal status is never mentioned. There are also two potholes around characters that are given the title "Battle Princess."
3. Characters.Go Princess Pretty Cure: Character is mentioned as wanting to bring down the evil that possessed her, but again, no royal status is mentioned.
4. Characters.Hakuouki: No mention made of royalty; she is listed as a "badass" not because she can fight, but because she is opinionated and outspoken.
5. Characters.Inu Yasha Filler Movies And Video Games Characters: Character is described as very powerful and it's mentioned that it isn't actually a princess, but something posing as one.
6. Characters.Masters Of The Universe: "She ain't called the Princess of Power for nothing."
7. MSF High IRC:
- A gender-bended character is more than willing to punch people in the face with fire.
8. Tanken Driland: Mikoto is a "capable ass-kicker," no mention of royalty.
9. The Lord of the Rings Film Trilogy: Éowyn is described as fighting alongside her male compatriots. Again, no mention of her royalty.
10. Undefeated Bahamut Chronicle: A character is said to be at the frontlines of every fight. No mention of royalty in the example.
As well as the ZCEs, seems like there's a lot of sinkholes.
The root of the issue seems to be that the Badass Trope is being used as a "I like this character" thing, right? When the intent of the trope (at least in the case of Badass Gay and Badass Princess) is that the character is unexpectedly capable/brave/etc.
Just want to clarify that we're all on the same page here before I proceed to make things more complicated.
Badass Gay is useful in that it discusses a subversion of LGBTQ (or queer, as people are more commonly saying these days) stereotypes. It's also not enough. You can see several examples on the page of people discussing bisexuals, pansexuals, lesbians, and all around the spectrum. It's erasure, and it's incredibly frustrating.
I recommend a name change. I've done so in the Trope Launch Pad and the Trope Repair Shop, and I've been redirected again and again. Well, now I'm here.
Going to add that @Agent S 7 is here from the old Badass Bisexual YKTTW. (Whether to split or not to split Badass Gay can be dealt with later). We're currently working on Badass Princess, from about page 74, and Badass Gay is next after that, I believe.
edited 26th Apr '17 2:46:07 PM by lakingsif
OH MY GOD; MY PARENTS ARE GARDENIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!!
are we good to start clean up on princess or do we need a crowner?
What about Action Princess as opposed to Warrior Princess? "Action" is broader than "warrior," but not nearly as vague as "badass."