Down Periscope is a 1996 comedy movie starring Kelsey Grammer as Lieutenant Commander Thomas Dodge USN, Executive Officer of the Los Angeles-class nuclear-powered fast attack submarine USS Orlando. Though considered by many to be a talented officer, he has been denied command of his own submarine twice for his... cavalier command style. A third denial will forever bar him from commanding a submarine.But Vice Admiral Winslow has a feeling that summarily dismissing an officer like Dodge would be a bad thing, and has come up with a method of proving it — a war game which pits USS Stingray, one of the last remaining diesel submarines still owned by the US Navy (and long since forgotten in the Mothball Fleet at that), against the East Coast nuclear navy. Dodge's assignment — simulate a terrorist strike against Charleston and Norfolk.However, his opponent, Rear Admiral Graham, doesn't think the Navy needs irrepressible screwups like Dodge, and is willing to stretch the rules to the breaking point to prove it — starting by giving said screwup the crew he believes such a screwup deserves — ultimately a mistake that will make a laughing stock of the U.S. nuclear navy, as Admiral Winslow has explicitly ordered Dodge to "think like a pirate" to show that most of the world doesn't play by the book, and that's exactly what Dodge is going to do.Notably Lt. Emily Lake (Lauren Holly) is supposed to be the first female submarine crew member in the history of the United States Navy. She is a Diving Officer.The film is a parody of Up Periscope and other films in the submarine-film genre.
- Accidental Innuendo: Dodge's speech introducing Diving Officer Lake to the rest of the crew has some of these, much to his embarrassment and their amusement.
- Accidental Misnaming: Nitro can never get Admiral Graham's name right.
- The Alleged Car: USS Stingray, a Balao-class fleet submarine, was the fastest, quietest, deadliest, most advanced weapon under the sea in her prime... which was in 1943. She was considered obsolete by the late 50s, has been rusting on Red Lead Row since 1965, and didn't even get the GUPPY-II upgrade like many of her sisters. She was chosen to be the aggressor for the war game because of her obsolete, decrepit nature.
- Artistic License – Military: There's plenty of stuff that has those actually familiar with the Real Life US Navy's Submarine Service laughing not only at the intentional comedy that's a surprisingly accurate reflection of submariners, but the unintentional variety as well. While some of the inaccuracies are due to writer ignorance, and some are due to Rule of Cool or convenience to the plot, some of the issues surrounding USS Orlando can be chalked up to the film production staff not having access to classified USN information.
- Behind the Black: When Pascal is walking the plank, Lt. Lake doesn't seem to notice Pascal is going to fall safely into a fishing net until he actually does so.
- Big Good: Vice Admiral Winslow sees potential in Dodge and arranged the war game to give the Lieutenant Commander once last shot at commanding his own submarine. He's also determined to figure out if it's possible for a rogue obsolete sub to seriously threaten the mighty US Navy, unlike the rest of the brass, who automatically dismiss the notion as ridiculous. He's proven right.
- Blunder Correcting Impulse: While the submarine is passing between the propellers of a larger ship Dodge has to remind Lake that he does not have dive officer training and desperately needs her to get over her crisis of ability and back behind the wheel.Dodge: You're the only one who can, Lake. I'm guessing here!
- Lake later figured out that he was deliberately giving incorrect orders in order to force her to step in. Had she not done so, he would've given the correct orders.
- Brick Joke: When he first meets his crew, Dodge gets Stepanek to settle down by informing him that "if I throw you off, it'll be in the middle of the Atlantic." Later in the film, Dodge does in fact throw an insubordinate member of his crew off of the Stingray in the middle of the Atlantic - but it's not Stepanek, it's Pascal, and he's tossed onto the waiting net of a helpful fishing boat rather than into the water, and Stepanek is the one doing the tossing.
- Bunny-Ears Lawyer: Most of the crew fit this trope, which is how they ended up on the ship to begin with, starting with their Commanding Officer, LCDR Dodge. Both on and off the job, he's an immature goofball, but he also shows that immature does not necessarily mean irresponsible. His antics are never shown to actually affect his job performance, he gets along well with his subordinates, and he whips a derelict rustbucket submarine into seaworthiness over the course of a montage.
- Butt-Monkey: LT Marty Pascal. Bonus points for the fact that he's played by Rob Schneider.
- Chekhov's Skill: Sonar's attempts to mimic whales by recording their calls. Also, Dodge's skill in calculating targeting solutions is shown early on via him nearly getting a hole in one while teeing a golf shot from the deck of a moving submarine.
- Chekhov's Gun: Two live torpedoes.
- The Chew Toy: Nitro has to endure electric currents through his body several times, just so Dodge can talk to somebody.
- Cloudcuckoolander: Nitro, due to having "absorbed a lot of voltage" in his electrical career. His Establishing Character Moment is basically him testing loose wires for voltages without a meter. 'Sonar' Lovacelli is, to a lesser degree, one as well.
- Comically Missing the Point: When Stingray makes her first dive in 40 years down to 500 feet, Chief Machinist's Mate Howard attaches a string to the inside of the pressure hull from port to starboard. As Stingray's depth increases, the water pressure begins squeezing the hull, causing the string to sag noticeably. Howard grins at Nitro (having put up the string to demonstrate this very thing) and says...Howard: Bet ya never saw anything like that on one of those big nukes.
Nitro: Uh, no, we didn't have clotheslines. We had those dryer things, with a window in the front.
- The Comically Serious: Just about the entire crew of Orlando, from Commander Knox on down. They act completely professional and serious at all times, completely unaware of ensuing hilarity happening on Stingray, or the unconventional tactics her crew is pulling off to elude them.
- Communications Officer:
- Composite Character: Nitro is apparently both the boat's electrician and radio operator (in Real Life, these are separate rates). Justified in that for this mission, the Stingray really doesn't need a full-time radioman.
- Another possible justification is that the equipment is in such bad shape that only Nitro knows how to keep it working.
- Control Freak: Executive Officer Martin Pascal just can't relax and go with the flow...
- Crazy Enough to Work: Several of Dodge's plans are incredibly risky, dangerous, or just so ludicrous that they seem unlikely, such as disguising themselves as a trawler full of drunk fishermen. Lampshaded in the climax by Spots, who says that the crew would prefer the risky maneuver, since it keeps working for them.
- Curse Cut Short: When Admiral Winslow asks Captain Dodge what he thinks of the Stingray, he replies, "It's a complete piece of...antiquated equipment, sir."
- Custom Uniform of Sexy: Lt. Lake's uniform ends up being much more revealing after her shipmates sabotage her laundry.Dodge: Lt. Lake, you are almost out of uniform.
- Damage Control: Stingray ends up busting some water mains in the engine room during a risky maneuver, leading to Stepanek's Big Damn Heroes moment.
- Deadpan Snarker: Most everyone gets a moment or two, it's that kind of movie, but of note is Stepanek's introductory scene; dressed like a biker, being escorted by SPs as he yells at and threatens them...Dodge: Oh good, our chaplain has arrived.
- Didn't Think This Through: Pascal tries to remove Dodge from command, as Dodge has intentionally disregarded Graham's orders (Dodge did so because he has higher orders from Winslow). He fails to account for two things. One, Dodge's actions have earned the respect of the crew. Two, his own actions have alienated the whole crew. He seems shocked and outraged when he realizes that Dodge has called him mutinous and is about to take care of the matter.
- Do-Anything Soldier: Nitro is the ship's electrician, but he is doing double duty as a radio operator as well. Also, Buckman is seen doing deck maintenance when he should be cooking.
- Double Entendre: Take a Ragtag Bunch of Misfits. Add one cute dive officer. Hilarity Ensues.
- Stepanek, on seeing Dodge exiting the aft torpedo room serving as Lake's quarters:Polishing the old torpedo, Sir?
- Dodge ends up unintentionally doing this a few times when introducing Lake to the crew.Lt. Cmdr Dodge: All right, look, gentlemen! I know this is an unusual situation. Can't be easy for Lt. Lake here to be thrown into a jungle such as this, and I know it will make things hard on all of us... (laughter) Let me rephrase that. It's going to make things difficult on all of us as well. But if we just work together as a team, I'm sure we can handle ourselves... (laughter) Comport ourselves as professionals. That is all.
- Stepanek, on seeing Dodge exiting the aft torpedo room serving as Lake's quarters:
- The Drunken Sailor: Invoked by Dodge to fool the Orlando into thinking his sub is just a civilian fishing boat caught in a storm. It works.
- Captain Knox: Great. We've just chased down a boatload of beered-up fishermen.
- Embarrassing Tattoo: One of Rear Admiral Graham's complaints against Thomas is his owning one of these.Rear Admiral Graham: I just don't think it's good policy for the Navy to hand over a billion dollar piece of equipment to a man who has 'Welcome Aboard' tattooed on his penis!
- Foreshadowing: Lt. Commander Dodge's threat: "If I throw you off, it'll be in the middle of the Atlantic." The only difference between when he said it and when he finally does it is the person to whom he speaks. He says it to Stepanek, but he does it to Pascal. In fact, it's Stepanek who ends up doing the throwing.
- Freakier Than Fiction: The basis of the movie - war games pitting decades-old naval hardware against modern equipment - has not only been done repeatedly in Real Life, but has often resulted in victories for the low-techs through skill and guile. The losing side has even changed the rules mid-game on occasion, but not in a subtle manner like Graham's manipulation of the playing area - they actually declared that the ships the low-techs sank were floating again.
- At least one of the incidents in question, however, the low-tech forces were cheating even by the standards of the exercise (real assets cannot teleport, and a 2,000 pound fishing trawler cannot launch a missile whose launcher alone weighs double the boat's displacement). And "refloating" sunk assets is actually SOP for a naval wargame: The exercises exist as much to train the crewmen as they do the Admirals, and getting "sunk" on day 1 of a wargame and having nothing to do for the rest of the exercise would be counterproductive.
- Friendly Enemy: The crew of USS Orlando are just doing their best to win the wargame, same as the crew of USS Stingray. It's Graham that acts as the Big Bad of the film. Even Commander Knox, who's excessively straight-laced and refused to recommend Dodge for promotion, is not a bad guy at all.
- Funny Background Event: When Graham dares his fellow admirals to "call [him] prude" during his anti-Dodge rant in the prologue, one of them can be seen grinning and giving a subtle "that's exactly what you are" nod in the background.
- Getting Crap Past the Radar: "So what's this tattoo I've been hearing about?" "Well, it's a long story..."
- Gosh Dang It to Heck!: Commander Knox. Profanity is his Berserk Button.
- Groin Attack: Pascal gets his luggage tossed straight into his groin right after he's made to walk the plank.
- Harmless Voltage: Nitro, of course. With all the voltage he's absorbed over the years, he's built up a considerable amount of tolerance.
- Heh Heh, You Said "X": Dodge, when talking to the crew about a woman (Lt. Lake) being on board:Dodge: All right, look, gentlemen. I know this is an unusual situation. Can't be easy for Lt. Lake here to be thrown into a jungle such as this, and I know it will make things hard on all of us...
Dodge: Let me re-phrase that. It's going to make things difficult on all of us as well. But if we just work together as a team, I'm sure we can handle ourselves...
Dodge: Comport ourselves as professionals. That is all.
- His Name Really Is "Barkeep": Nitro's name really is Nitro — his full name being "Electrician's Mate 2nd Class Michael K. Nitro" according to the filming script. He's considering "Mike" as a nickname.
- Homage: Sonar is one to Radar from M*A*S*H, in name if not necessarily manner.
- Hot Sub-on-Sub Action: Stingray has to make the final stage of their run on Norfolk with Orlando in hot pursuit.
- Hyper Awareness: Sonarman 2nd Class E.T. "Sonar" Lovacelli can hear how much change is dropped on a nearby submarine. And a crewman eating an Oreo on another deck. And a couple of lobsters dukin' it out. This IS helped by his listening equipment, but it takes more than fancy gear to point out that someone dropped "forty-five cents. A quarter... and two dimes", after jerking as if an explosion went off in his ear after the coins hit the deck.
- Indestructible Edible: The can of Deviled Ham in the galley. It's been on that shelf since Korea. It expired in 1966. It still tastes like cream corn...
- Indy Ploy: Almost everything Lt. Cmdr. Dodge does amounts to winging it.Dodge: Presently there are several ships positioned outside the harbor to intercept us. To get in, we'll need to use a tactic that is somewhat bizarre and extremely risky. If any of you think it's not worth it, please let me know now.
Spots: Actually, sir, I think we prefer to go with the bizarre and risky. It's worked for us so far.
- Insane Admiral: Rear Admiral Graham. He starts off as just an asshole, but by the end of the film the lengths he goes to to try and rig the wargame and screw Dodge over have pushed him fully into Mad Brass territory.
- Insult Backfire: Graham's protests against giving Dodge a submarine over his "Welcome Aboard" tattoo only amused the other Admirals, and potentially made them more impressed with Dodge as a submariner (a naval branch that emphasizes roguish qualities). Admiral Winslow himself saw it as a positive trait for a renegade sub captain.Winslow: Damn it to hell, don't go by the book! Think like a pirate! I want a man with a tattoo on his dick! Have I got the right man?
Dodge: (glumly) By a strange coincidence you do, sir.
- Interservice Rivalry: Downplayed, but when R.J. sings the Army's then-current recruiting jingle ("Be all that you can be") while participating in one of Dodge's Crazy Enough to Work plans, Dodge is visibly annoyed. In the middle of a storm.
- Jerkass Façade: Stepanek. He makes no secret of the fact that he's out to make as much of a pain in the ass of himself as he can. However, he draws the line at screwing over the other members of the crew. Interestingly, the façade crumbles entirely once he has a chance to play Big Damn Hero in the engine room; Yes, Stepanek, there is a place for foulmouthed badasses on submarines, it's not all cramped clockwork boredom.Stepanek: Now that was fun!
- Jerkass Has a Point: While Lt Pascal may be a loud Control Freak, his complaints about how Buckman runs the galley are entirely justified.
- "Join the Army," They Said: When stringing halogen lamps on the periscope as part of a ruse to look like a fishing boat in rough nighttime weather, Jackson sings an old US Army recruiting ad song.Jackson: Be all that you can be!
Dodge: That's the army song, Jackson!
- Large Ham: Dodge
- Admiral Winslow. It's Rip Torn for Christ's sake!
- Lethal Chef: Buckman's kitchen practices are probably what landed him on the Stingray in the first place; the most glaring things we hear about are a fingernail and band-aid in the food on two consecutive days (the band-aid was holding the fingernail on, you see,) and then there's the deviled ham...
- Meaningful Name: Lt. Lake, who's never done an actual dive, having only been on a simulator—think of anyone who's only had training experience (if anything) in a lake, who suddenly has to face the open ocean.
- Military Brat: Stepanek, of all people. Turns out his father is Vice Admiral Winslow, and Stepanek's been using his mother's maiden name to avoid allegations of favoritism.
- Moving the Goalposts: Graham constantly changes the rules in order to give himself the advantage in the war games, including "I have to know where my attacker is coming from in order to catch him," as if a real enemy combatant would make it that easy. Dodge rightly ignores him; he had higher orders.
- The Mountains of Illinois: An odd version: The Appalachians do run through Virginia, but aren't visible in any way in Norfolk, being nearly 200 miles away! Most of the film was shot in and around San Francisco Bay in California (USS Pampanito, which plays USS Stingray, is a museum ship in San Francisco), where the hills are much closer to the coast.
- Ms. Fanservice: Lt. Lake, after her laundry is sabotaged.Dodge: Lieutenant Lake, you are almost out of uniform.
- In-Universe, the crew views Lake as this until she proves her skill as dive officer.
- The Mutiny: Lt. Pascal, way too by-the-book for this Ragtag Bunch of Misfits, eventually decides to "relieve the captain of his duties" after Dodge ignores both Rear Admiral Graham's orders and Pascal's advice to follow them. However, as Dodge secretly had orders from a higher-ranking admiral, Pascal's move was a classic case of mutiny. As for how well it worked, see above under Didn't Think This Through.
- The Neidermeyer: Rear Admiral Graham, LT Martin Pascal as well.
- Never Live It Down: In-universe example: Dodge's Embarrassing Tattoo, which everyone seems to know about and feel the need to mention.
- Nice Job Fixing It, Villain!: Graham's providing a bum crew for Dodge probably would have steered him straight for another wargame victory, if only Sonar hadn't been among them. His insane talents for hearing and sonar use, not to mention mimicry, are the most directly responsible for Dodge coming ahead in troubling situations.
- No Indoor Voice: Pascal, most of the time. Of course, it is Rob Schneider...
- Noodle Incident: The Murmansk brushing incident. Although it's known that in Real Life there have been such incidents (which generally are the end of the responsible CO's career), the details of the one involving Dodge are mostly unknown; all that's known is that he was an Ensign at the time (meaning he likely was not in command, though he was probably running the tactical plot and miscalculated the range to the Russian sub, leading to the collision), got blindingly drunk afterwards, and received his Embarrassing Tattoo while inebriated.
- Obfuscating Stupidity: Buckman, when confronted by Pascal regarding his cooking.Pascal: Buckman! There was a fingernail in my food! You fat ass moron! Yesterday, it was a band-aid!
Buckman: Sorry Sir, the band-aid was holding the fingernail on.
- Also, while Pascal is yelling at him, Buckman sprays shortening on the floor and ladder behind Pascal's back, leading to the latter to slip on both items.
- Office Golf: Early in the film, Dodge gets chewed out by his captain for playing golf off the weather deck of USS Orlando as she was sailing into port. He actually does rather well, hitting a long shot onto shore and getting very close to the hole.Knox: Well, what the heck? Why don't we pull in so you can putt out!?
- Permission to Speak Freely: Emily Lake asks for this, gets it, and then kisses the captain.
- Pirate Parrot: Nitro wears one at Pascal's walking the plank. Oh, and it is an uncooked chicken.Buckman: Don't let it fly away, that's supper.
- Plank Gag: Dodge gets Buckman to unwittingly pull one on Stepanek, as Stepanek's comeuppance for slacking while everyone else is doing scut work.
- Precision F-Strike: Captain Dodge (reading his own fitness report): "This is a confirmed kill. Twenty years down the fucking drain!"
- Radio Contest: Nitro tried to connect the sub to Admiral Graham's phone call. Being Nitro, it got misdirected,
- Ragtag Bunch of Misfits: Dodge's crew obviously. We've got:
- A hot-tempered and uptight Executive Officer.
- A crusty old Chief Machinist's Mate who's actually retired and working as a civilian contractor (because no active Naval personnel is familiar with a Balao-class engine system).
- A rebellious Engineman who wants to be court-martialed.
- A sharp-eared Sonar Technician who could not only hear a pin drop, but identify the make and model of said pin from the sound it makes hitting the floor. In this case, there wasn't anything wrong with how he did his job, his leadership were just paranoid that anyone with hearing that sharp would be a security risk and wanted him gone.
- Oh, he doesn't hear everything. And don't worry, he's very trustworthy...
- A compulsive gambler with a well-established (and hilarious) losing streak.
- A former U.S. Naval Academy basketball player who choked on his Big Game, flunked out, and wound up as an enlisted Seaman.
- A shock-prone (and shock-addled) Electrician who can channel more voltage than a Pikachu.
- A cigar chomping chef of questionable culinary skill and even-more-questionable personal hygiene.
- A female Dive Officer to test the feasibility of a coed crew (giving Dodge further headaches).
- And pretty much every other insubordinate reject the Navy had available. All put together in a World War II vintage rustbucket of a submarine by a Glory Hound Admiral who was actively sabotaging both the wargames and Dodge's career.
- Real Song Theme Tune: "In the Navy" by the Village People.
- Reasonable Authority Figure: Vice Admiral Winslow. He's sees the potential in Dodge and gives him higher orders that give him more flexibility than Graham would permit in the war game.
- Reassignment Backfire: Dodge and his entire crew. He also sees the importance of the war game to the Navy, while Graham simply sees it as another feather in his cap.
- Rock Beats Laser: The whole point of the film's plot is that an old diesel submarine could be a threat to US harbors - if it was crewed and commanded by people willing to play outside the rule books of more conventional submarine forces in an underwater version of guerrilla warfare. This is Truth in Television for modern diesel-electric subs with air-independent propulsion; not so much for a World War II vintage submarine.
- Rule of Three: Played with. Each time Dodge gets a call from Admiral Graham, he has Nitro put it through on a different method. The first time, it shocks Nitro. The second time, it seriously shocks Nitro. The third time, Nitro prepares himself with as much safety gear as possible. It works as intended and Nitro isn't hurt at all, much to his own surprise.
- Ship Tease: Dodge and Emily. At one point Emily even expresses her admiration and gratitude to Dodge by giving him a kiss on the lips.
- Shut Up, Hannibal!: Towards the end, Dodge calls out Admiral Graham on his flagrant cheating.Dodge: Since when did the rules become important to you, sir?
Graham: You watch yourself, Dodge. You are addressing a superior officer!
Dodge: No, merely a higher ranking one! Catch us if you can!
- Side Bet:
- Money changes hands aboard Orlando right after the climax of the film, between Captain Knox (CO of Orlando) and his XO.note
- Spots and Jackson are seen exchanging money a couple of times. Keep an eye on them whenever something exciting happens.
- Silent Running Mode: Pretty much a given in a submarine movie, and played with in multiple scenes:
- When Stingray is trying to avoid detection by Orlando earlier in the exercise, they're doing well in hiding until Buckman rips a massive fart that the Orlando's sonar operator says almost sounds like an explosion.
- Other notable events that break silence: three loose coins hitting the deck (Orlando) and accidentally hitting the ocean floor (Stingray).
- However, it's successfully inverted by Stingray as well. At one point, being hunted by sonar, Dodge leads his crew in a drunken singalong. However, combined with some modifications to their profile and a howling storm, they convince the opposing sub that they're just a trawler full of drunk fishermen. It also helps that Orlando crew is unaware that their opponent is a diesel sub. When Knox's sonar technician tells him he heard a diesel engine, Knox immediately dismisses the possibility of a diesel submarine.
- Springtime for Hitler: Since he doesn't want to serve on a submarine at all (let alone one like the Stingray), Stepanek tries to get himself kicked out of Cmdr. Dodge's crew, starting from the moment he first arrives. Of course, Dodge sees through it immediately.Lt. Cmdr. Dodge: Stepanak. If I throw you off, it'll be in the middle of the Atlantic. Board the damn boat.
- The Squadette: Emily Lake.
- Straw Hypocrite: Graham doesn't like Dodge because he doesn't play by rules, or act like a proper officer. So how does Graham go about ensuring that Dodge won't receive command of a submarine? By cheating, and generally being an arrogant prick.
- Stripper/Cop Confusion: In Real Life, at the time the movie was made women weren't allowed on US submarines — Dodge is thus thrown by Lake's appointment as the ship's dive officer, not knowing about a (then fictional) experimental program to see if women will be allowed to serve on subs. He thought that she was hired by the crew as a present for him.
- Submarine Pirates: A U.S. Navy wargame calls for simulating an attack by terrorists working in conjunction with Submarine Pirates. Winslow's orders explicitly say "think like a pirate". The Stingray crew even plays it up when making LT Pascal Walk the Plank following CAPT Dodge's decision to ignore RADM Graham's attempt to rig the wargame, flying a "Jolly Roger" flag and dressed up in piratical clothing. Nitro never bothers to change out of his costume or wash off the fake beard for the rest of the run, and even giving the occasional "Arr".
- Sub Story: The entire film focuses on wargames conducted on submarines.
- Theme Naming: An interesting example as the different themes used by the two subs demonstrates just how far apart they are in terms of technology and service. Stingray is named using the US Navy's World War II-era tradition of naming submarines for fish, while Orlando uses the Navy's later tradition of naming attack submarines for cities note
- Title Drop: It's a sub movie called "Down Periscope". A title drop is a given.
- Those Two Guys: Spots and R.J., the Stingray's Planesmen. The movie occasionally pauses to show them discussing whatever while at their post, usually R.J.'s basketball career and Spots' betting.
- Toilet Humor: Buckman almost ruins Silent Running Mode with a mammoth fart. More comedy as the crew must stifle any urge to shout in disgust, which stretches into an Overly Long Gag.Dodge: Someone find Buckman and launch him out a torpedo tube!
- Walk the Plank: What the crew of USS Stingray makes Pascal do when he pushes them too far. A fishing boat is in on the joke and catches him in a strung net for laughs. As added injury, Dodge gives Pascal his luggage-by dropping it on his crotch.
- Way Past the Expiration Date:
- The food stores in Stingray's galley date, in at least one case, back to The Korean War.Pascal: Jesus, Buckman! This stuff's been on the Stingray since KOREA! This can expired in 1966!
Buckman: What's the matter, sir? It still tastes like creamed corn...
Pascal: Except, it's DEVILED HAM!
Buckman: That would be a problem.
- Most of the crew view the Stingray as such, at least until she starts winning the wargame.
- The food stores in Stingray's galley date, in at least one case, back to The Korean War.