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Okay, I'm objecting to the X Men Evolution entry of Jean Grey on the Western Animation sub-page. I may simply be a fan of the character, but I never detected overwhelming hate for her, except for one bad fanfiction writer who put her down to make the self-insert OC look good. Nor did I really see any justification for her being classed as Creator's Pet - Rogue, after all, got far more screen time and it was her character arc that dominated the show, though she was fairly well received. People who are simultaneously intelligent (I don't think she was ever shown as being top in the school, and she's always been very clever) and sporty do actually exist in real life.
Maybe Base Breaker (though I can see little enough evidence of that, either...) might be more appropriate?
I don't know, but we have this forum thread for discussion on the issue.
Can a character be both a Base Breaker and a Creator's Pet at the same time. If not, we should remove examples like Broly where that is clearly the case. I'm pretty sure this trope means "The Scrappy who's loved by the creators".
Also what should we do about characters who are popular in certain areas and not others.
Sometimes I wonder what the point of subjective trope pages are if you still have to jump through so many hurdles just to list something.
Because "subjective" doesn't mean anything goes.
Good thing I didn't imply that it does then. But still, if Your Mileage May Vary, why does everything have to seem so drearily official?
Because a trope can have both YMMV and objective requirements. YMMV is a concept for "this relies on opinion"; it doesn't say anything about how to add examples.
Removed a especially natter-y Anti-Travis rant form the Star Wars EU section for being a)completely irrelevant to the trope at hand and b)so YMMV that I doubt it would place in the YMMV section.
I think that Superboy-Prime qualifies as a subversion of this trope. He has many of the hall-marks of a Creator's Pet in that he always has a spotlight in major crises, writers use him to kill off a bunch of characters they don't care for, and generally like writing him...but they still hate him and treat him with no respect, just like the fans.
If the Word of God admits that a character is a Creator's Pet, does the character still qualify despite not meeting the criteria?
I believe that Creator's Pet and The Wesley were once two tropes, where Creator's Pet (or at least something like that) was the supertrope and included characters that the fandom liked, so long as the creators, well, really liked them as well.
As far as I know, that's gone now so... no.
Um, sorry? Wasn't being passive aggressive. In the slightest. I thought there was once a trope along the lines of "a character who is loved by creators" that was a supertrope to The Wesley.
No need to be rude.
My deepest apologies. I just took your comment the wrong way.
If a character happens to become overused by the creator because it first became very profitable/popular with the public, does said character qualify for this trope?
In that case, characters like Wolverine or Batman don't really fit the trope since they only became a pet after becoming very popular.
As this trope has been split into separate example lists, I am locking the main article. Any discussion of the description should go here.
Why the name change? the Wesley was fine, so why the change to Creator's Pet? It Bugs Me!
Not everyone is familiar with Star Trek: The Next Generation. Besides which, there's some potential for confusion with others named Wesley (or Westley). Creator's Pet is a more self-explanatory title.
Sorry but going to have to call BS on this. While it is understandable that there are other characters named Wesley Star Trek, the original and the Next Generation, is a household name in which everyone and their own mother is familiar with. Not familiar with the original trope sounds like a excuse one would come up with when they just want to rename the trope for the hell of it
Myopia at its finest. TNG is nearing twenty years since it ended and the first original is over forty. There are also people who just might not be into science fiction. To expect people to see "The Wesley" and immediately connect the name to a guy from a specific show and know what the trope is about is absurd. If I were to create a trope called "The Haruhi" and expect everyone to know that it's about a seemingly normal person who doesn't know they have superpowers, would people be willing to let that go? Didn't think so.
Yeah, the old trope's name completely stumped me.
In fact, when I came across this trope was the first time I ever heard of the Star Trek character.
Star Trek The Next Generation is a household name, but Wesley is only known to the fans.
Is it just me or is the entry for Imoen from Baldur's Gate fairly vicious?
That's almost at complaining about characters that you don't like levels.
It's also ridiculous - if the creators were so inept and weak-willed that they "rewrote vast sections of the plot" rather than kill a fan-loved character, then they're almost beneath contempt. That's just pathetic.
One thing I'm wondering, what if a character is, say, in only one or two episodes. But in those episodes, it's clear the producers really liked them, but the fans pretty much hate their guts. Do they have to be a main character, or do they just have to hog the screentime they do get and get shilled during it?
For it to qualify it has to be a relatively unimportant character, because if they're actually plot-important they're not thrust into scenes for no reason.
I am currently involved in an Edit War against someone who's name i forgot to look up before posting this message over the entry for Itachi Uchiha.
I do not believe this entry can belong on this page because Itachi is not a Wesley, large parts of the Naruto fandom love Itachi, another large part hates him, and presumably the rest of the fandom doesn't love or hate him, but acknowledges that he's there. Since the Wesley is defined as a character who is hated by the overwhelming majority of the fandom, i don't see how Itachi can be considered a Wesley.
Now, if i'm wrong, and he can be put on this page despite not being a Wesley, i believe that certain parts of the message should be removed or toned down. The Karma Houdini part doesn't apply to Itachi. Karma is a simple concept: do bad things, and bad things will happen to you; do good things, and good things will happen to you. Itachi did bad things for good reasons, and bad things happened to him. First he killed his family (bad thing he did) and then he spent the last eight of his twenty one years as a diseased fugitive despised by the people he sought to save (bad thing that happned to him). Then, not only did he DIE, but he was resurrected to find out that his plan failed and the war he murdered his family to prevent started anyway. Because he did not escape Karma, he is not a Karma Houdini.
I also believe the Hyprocite part is debatable. I can see how one would come to that conclusion. But it ignores the fact that Itachi was talking about fighting one person on his own, while Naruto was talking about fighting AN ENTIRE WAR on his own.
TO be honest, I'd say Sasuke is more a creator's pet than Itachi (whose association with Sasuke gives him traces of this)
While I consider Carlie a Wesley myself, her section has picked up a lot of natter. Does anyone mind if I cut down on all of that and just give a brief summary?
Sure you can (that'd actually be really helpful).
Am I the only Troper who thinks Bill 156 is a Wesley? Because a bunch of the otaku nation does, especially in the affected area (Tokyo). It doesn't help that the Tokyo GOVERNOR pushed for its passage.
I personally think this trope needs to go to the Repair Shop. Most of it contains legit examples of this trope, but a lot of it is just complaining about main characters you don't like. Main character detested by you /=/ Wesley.
I agree. You can see the sheer HATRED radiating from many, many entries, and it's getting creepy as fuck to see people pretty much doam at the mouth and lose all coherence in regards to FICTIONAL people. A good example is Nozomi from Bleach, whose supposed "Wesley" tratis would be withstood or even praised if she was a male since there are MANY males who are as "overpowered" as she is in-story, but aside of Aizen she's the only one who gets slammed. And then there's her "chemistry" with Ichigo, which to me is the REAL reason why she's hated.
Why is it that any time a female character is criticized for any reason, somebody decides to play the misogyny and/or shipping card? You're being sexist for assuming that nothing regarding a female character can be negative and/or reducing a female character's worth to shipping material. It's also presumptuous to act as if male characters are given a free pass regarding anything.
As for Nozomi... Really? There are so many negative things I could say about her, but I wouldn't touch that issue, nor the rest of your arguments, with a ten foot pole.
As for this trope, in general, people seem to be adding examples regardless of how many people share their opinions and some will flat out lie about how many actually agree with them. Some have gone as far as criticizing those who don't agree with them.
I doubt anybody's going to see this given it hasn't been posted in for a while, but I removed Jo from Big Time Rush from the Live Action TV section. I didn't know fans actually liked her-I added her in the first place, because at one point I remember her being listed as The Wesley on the show's YMMV page. And the point of her actions in "Welcome Back, Big Time" was that Kendall was being a jerk? The only justifiable excuse was his constantly breaking her kiss scene, and for the most part going to such extremes to know what was happening with her and Jett even though it was nothing. Regardless, I still hate that episode.
As well as that, I find Gibby being listed as one questionable. Most iCarly fans I know like him, and I don't see him as much of a Jerkass myself.
Gibby's by a looooong shot the LEAST Jerkass character on iCarly.
Teachers Pet normally implies that the person is hated too. the sort of behaviour of a "pet" is generally regarded as irritating, comparing something to a pet i hardly flattering, redirects don't have to be spoony.
I'm curious: I don't read comics, so what exactly is the hard life Carlie Cooper supposedly has that makes Spiderman's life look trivial? (I don't doubt that Carlie's life is likely a cakewalk compared to Peter's I just would like to know how)
Essentially her dad was a dirty cop and that's about the extent of it (she might have a missing mom too as I can't remember one being mentioned, but don't quote me on that one). Oh and she was friends was Gwen Stacey but considering Gwen and Peter were discussing marriage around the time she died and he saw her die at the hands of their mutal friends father...moot point.
So... I was thinking this entry is a bit overlong. Some of the parts don't even make much sense; I have NEVER seen the Dark Angels get that much praise from GW, and a lot of fans playing them makes them Ensemble Darkhorses, not Wesleys.
Plus, the Ultramarines entry in general seems to be "Whinewhinewhinewhinewhine" more than just explanation.
Should I cut some?
What is really the difference between a Mary Sue and a Wesley? Aren't Sues hated by the readers, loved by their authors and generally offered large roles of the story (if not it's central focus)?
A Sue is a related concept, but not identical. They're defined as Willing Suspension of Disbelief-breakingly perfect, whilst the Wesley just has to be despised by the audience for whatever reason, and yet given a disproportionate amount of hype by the authors and prominence in the plot.
Rolo Lamperouge, for instance, is a Wesley but not a Sue. He's far too fucked in the head for the latter, without even the almighty competence of a Villain Sue or the improbable success rate of an Anti-Sue.
I think that the term you're looking for is Canon Sue.
Adric seems to be misplaced here. I don't think he counts as a Wesley because his teammates don't exactly lavish praise on him all the time (see "Four to Doomsday" for some choice Take That, Scrappy! moments, including Nyssa telling him to shut up and the Doctor calling him an idiot and a delinquent) and since he's in the infamous "crowded TARDIS" he doesn't have heaps of screentime either. I think the only real Wesley quality he has is the fan-hate, which would make him more of a Scrappy. Personally I love the little bugger, but I know he's far from perfect.
Been bugging me for a while, but the Jessica Jones example doesn't really list why she's a Wesley other than one single example of shilling. If anyone else has support for it feel free but I'm thinking of cutting it just for poor explanation.
For reference, here's the entry:
I thought I was the only one who hated that stupid Godot -_-
I'm the troper who originally put in the "Face it Lana, you're amazing!" quote at the top of the page (the ultimate Lana shill). Later I found that it had been changed to "C'mon Lana, you're amazing!" Admittedly, I don't own the Smallville DV Ds, but I'm sure that the line was "face it". I've changed it back again, but if someone with the DV Ds would like to check what the exact quote was, then feel free to switch it back to "c'mon" again if I'm wrong.
Guys, if you feel the need to start with "for me" then it probably isn't broad enough and should go in Tropers Tales
Wouldn't a Music subsection be relevant ?
In concerts, acts tend to invariably include in the setlist personal favourites the audience could do without :
- The Gloaming more regularly performed live by Radiohead than anything off The Bends
- Queen shows were universally viewed as exhilarating experiences. During 8-minute-long bleeps-and-bloops Get Down Make Love, less so
- Generally any overlong self-indulgent guitar or drums solo
- U2 has performed Sunday Bloody Sunday at every show but one in 13 years. It's a hit so they might think they're providing fanservice, but in truth the fans are SICK of the ear worm
I have a question, why is Wesley Crusher the "Wesley", yet Will Robinson of Lost in Space, not considered the "Wesley"? Like Wesley, he's a genius and like Wesley, he did occasionally get the Robinson family in trouble? I'm just honestly curious
I guess since no one answered this question, it means that Will Robinson of Lost in Space IS indeed "The Wesley" of that program! :O
I doubt it. Most of the fan hate was directed at Doctor Smith and most of the remaining hate was for the Robot.
The Wesley is an Audience Reaction, not a trope.
The Wesley isn't just "a genius who gets someone into trouble." It's specifically a fan reaction, where the fans hate a character despite that character being touted by the creators.
i really have to ask because this is not on the canonical list of yadda yadda yadda... but what's the difference between this and the canon sue?
Canon Sue is a type of Mary Sue and therefore all examples are listed in the Canonical section of whichever definition of Mary Sue the character fits. The Wesley furthermore does not have the plot warping effect of a Black Hole Sue but nonetheless is given more attention than he/she deserves.
Would corn fit on this list? The US government subsidizes the living daylights out of it and also levies a large enough tariff on sugar(actually the sugar lobby's fault) that corn syrup can be found in damn near everything. The corn lobby's also running these "sweet surprise" commercials that use Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics to gloss over the fact that fructose is less healthy than sucrose.
I doubt Kotchanski counts as the Wesley. Lister and Kryten still get as much screentime as before and she never got any shilling in the season where she joined the cast full-time (in fact, quite the opposite happened to her at Kryten's hands throughout the series). In the next season most of the focus was back on Rimmer and Lister's Odd Couple room sharing, so she wasn't exactly a Spotlight Hog. Not to mention that she was all but Put on a Bus in Back To Earth. If anything, she's a milder version of a Replacement Scrappy. But even then, the staff tried to stop her from truely replaceing Rimmer by keeping his appearences in flachbacks and dream sequences to make the most of Chris Barrie's limited availabilty for work, while he was filming The Brittas Empire.
Ryan Lavery of All My Children definitely fits this trope. More than one discussion board actually has a "Die, Ryan, Die" war chant, yet Ryan quite possibly gets more screen time than Erica Kane. All the other characters (especially the women) practically wax poetic as they extol his virtues to anyone they can corner, yet none of these virtues are readily apparent... the audience is just supposed to believe in them because they've been TOLD to.
I'm not a Harry Potter fan at all, but is Ginny Weasley really universally hated by fans/loved by JKR enough to be on this page?
No. She is a base breaker. Some fans hate her, some like her.
Is Neelix really a wesley? I don't remember him getting a disproportionate number of focus episodes. He's a Scrappy no doubt, but I don't think he fully qualifies as a Wesley.
I like the top page quote. Lets keep it! (and name it George)
Doesn't Owen actually have a lot of fans? I listed him as a Base Breaker and nobody seemed to mind.
Edit: And he won the first season because he got enough votes from the fans. Well, I think the "you pick the winner" never happened for the first season in Canada, but in everywhere else...
I deleted some factual errors, but I'm wondering if River Song even fits given the justification. This is not Complaining About Characters You Don't Like.
Most importantly, in two years she's appeared in two stories amounting to four 45 minute episodes. As of now, she's not a major character.
There seems to be a few tropers who seem insistent that she is, so I added a small snippet in the main body of the Doctor Who entry.
But honestly, I don't get it - apart from acting smug (supposely) and having a mysterious past, she's another companion who relies on the Doctor to save the day and have her fat pulled from the fire (just like...well, everyone else really). Apparently her flying the TARDIS seems to be a sticking point, except for the minor fact that he taught her to.
Well, I don't really like her (I can't really explain properly...), but I don't think she's a Wesley. I mean, she doesn't show up enough to be one.
Removed Christina d'Souza and Jenny, both of them one-episode wonders who cannot possibly qualify as The Wesley. As for River Song, I'm not sure it's relevant how competent she is—this is The Wesley, not Mary Sue. The creators clearly love her (the guy who created her is now showrunner, and she's popped up twice already in his first season in charge). The fanbase is lukewarm at best. She butts into stories where she doesn't have much reason to be; both "A Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone" and "The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang" would have worked just fine without her. I don't think she's The Wesley yet, but a few more appearances and a little more fanbase hatred and she will be.
It doesn't help that Moffat has written himself into a corner. It would have been possible to drop her after her original appearance in "Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead"—her retro-relationship with the Doctor could have been brushed off by way of Timey-Wimey Ball—but now that she's become a recurring character, Moffat is committed to developing that retro-relationship, and it's not at all clear how he can manage it without completely hijacking the show.
As of the Season Finale, I think it's safe to say she's a Wesley, given her horrific actions and lack of tangible (and explicit) consequences for the aforesaid actions. However, it's always going to be YMMV, no matter the character; even the original Trope Namer had his fans.
...what in god's name did she do that was so "horrific" that required tangible consequences? The woman was kidnapped from her parents at birth, brainwashed into an assassin by a cult, then forced to shoot someone she loved. And then pay for a crime she learned she had to commit or all of time and space would collapse - a crime that she actually DOESN'T commit but has to pay for anyway.
Is Dana Walsh from 24 really a good example of a Wesley? I'm not contesting that she was a detestable character with a time-wasting subplot, but I don't really sense that she was the "Creator's Pet" or overly well-liked by the writers or showrunners. Given how her character has turned out, it seems like the writers intended for her to be widely hated by the fans, which contradicts the basic idea of a Wesley.
Pardon me — does anyone know if there's a trope that describes the polar opposite of The Wesley? As in, a character that fans like, but the creators hate? And I don't necessarily mean Screwed by the Network where executives hate them.
Sounds like a combo of Ensemble Dark Horse and Misaimed Fandom to me.
Demoted to Extra in some cases.
A lot of the examples here seem to be base breakers. Should I cut the entries that say the character has a fanbase?
I said this in the archived dicussion, but do the Kankers from Ed Edd N Eddy count? I think that since they are used as a quick way to wrap up the episode, the writers must like them. Yet, they are hated by nearly every single EENE fan.
From what I remember, the Kankers got the least screentime of any character. I don't think they'd really count.
That's not saying very much considering the Omega Cast structure of the show.
It's subjective. Stop adding natter!
Is Green Lantern John Stewart really The Wesley? Most of the fan criticism of him seems to be that he's just put in situations that other G Ls would fit better, not that he's a bad character.
I went ahead and took the liberty of erasing the comic entry since a lot of it was actually completely inaccurate. Dwayne Mc Duffie accusing people of being racist. A wesley is a character who is near universally hated by fans, but writers continue to push him/her into leading positions. The closes Green Lantern to ever fit that description has been Kyle Rayner, not John Stewart, and even then he was more of a Replacement Scrappy. Simply put, John isn't a Wesley becasue "getting position instead of fan favorite character."
If anything, John more properly fits the description of Base Breaker.
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How well does it match the trope?