Discussion Foil / Persona5

... honestly, given how bad Foil misuse is on the site, I'd wager we could probably cut the page and not really lose much of value.

But yes, a cleanup is never a bad idea.

Can be.

Okay, the following are examples that actually qualify as literary foils:

• Not listed on the page, but Yusuke and Madarame (Madarame's secret wealth and the fact he does art solely for cash serves to show Yusuke is Doing It for the Art and highlights his financial difficulties).
• Makoto and Eiko: Eiko's very different personality and background serve to highlight Makoto's (lovable) Academic Alpha Bitch tendencies... but the boyfriend stuff is just fluff.
• Akechi and... actually quite a few. Joker, Phantom Thieves as a whole for sure, but this is where I'm breaking my own rule and think that Naoto and Adachi work as foils to him as the work is clearly intending on players to see him through the lens of those characters.
• Kamoshida and Madarame might apply, since IIRC the Phantom Thieves do directly compare them to each other and it's a plot point that they have to handle Madarame differently from Kamoshida.
• Sae and Makoto might qualify, but it's poorly written.

Okay, I'm going to begin cutting examples and leaving ones that I think are valid. Anything I'll cut, I'll add here and people can contest if they like.

To (re)clarify, Foil doesn't just mean "characters can be contrasted." That would be literally meaningless. It also doesn't mean "characters can be contrasted, but also have some similarities." That, again, is also 100% meaningless. A literary foil is a character who is used in the work to contrast another character specifically to highlight particular traits of one of the character (or both, depending on the importance of the respective characters).

Some of the ones I cut may wind up applying, and I'm happy to discuss them, but as-written they're treated as more of a troper game akin to Surprisingly Similar Characters (but also not 100% the same).

• Morgana To Teddie. While both are non-human mascot characters tied to the main plot, their characteristics for the most part contrast one another. Teddie is a blank slate who develops his own inner desires as he spends time with the Investigation Team while Morgana is already driven by his own motivations and desires when he first meets the Phantom Thieves. Their true identities also contradict one another as Teddie was born from an antagonistic force due to being a former Shadow while Morgana is not a Shadow but is an Animalistic Abomination created by the Real Igor to help the protagonist. Teddie also does become human once he awakens to a Persona as a result of outgrowing his former Shadow identity while Morgana is unable to fulfill his dream of becoming a human. Also, Teddie intentionally tries to get others to see him as a cute bear, while Morgana despises being seen as a cat.
  • This would be Contrasting Sequel Protagonist, and the connection between the characters is entirely metatextual and not provided by the work itself. And what's the trait that Teddie supposedly highlights of Morgana's?
• Yusuke to Kanji Tatsumi, who is also of the Emperor Arcana. Yusuke is the graceful, samurai-esque Bishōnen to Kanji's Hot-Blooded, chair-wielding hunk. They're both artistic (Yusuke's interests lying in the fine arts, Kanji's in craftsmanship), and while they're both single-mindedly committed to their respective crafts, their attitudes about this dedication are radically different—while Yusuke is unabashed about his love for his art, Kanji hides his out of shame for what he believes it implies about his sexuality. They were also both raised in single-parent households, but Yusuke's adoptive father turns out to be an exploitative plagiarist who allowed his mother to die and forces Yusuke to live in poverty, while Kanji is a devoted son who has a loving, supportive relationship with his mother.
  • The connection is wayyyyyyy too tenuous.
• Makoto to Eiko:
  • This is fine, but I'm taking out the "can have a healthy relationship to Joker" since it's not actually canon
• Makoto to Sae:
  • As I said above, I think it counts, but the writeup is poor and I don't recall enough to clarify it. Commenting it out.
• Makoto To Mitsuru Kirijo. Unlike Mitsuru, Makoto doesn't take everything seriously and addresses her friends by their first name. Also, Makoto treats other people nicely and is well adept to the current trend whereas Mitsuru has a cold demeanor and is a fish out of water.
  • Incredibly tenuous connection.
• To Yukiko Amagi, who preceded her as as a Priestess. Both are intelligent and introverted girls who struggle to live up to the expectations of those around them, and aren't entirely comfortable with the way their lives are headed (something that they come to terms with by the end of their respective games). Additionally, both Yukiko and Makoto initially have low self-esteem and hate the idea of being useless, which plays a large part in the awakening of their Personas. However, unlike Yukiko who is expected to stay in Inaba and inherit the Amagi Inn by her family and the media, Makoto is expected to work hard and follow an ambitious career path by her sister Sae. While Yukiko is popular at school (especially with boys) and had at least one friend in the form of Chie before the Investigation Team, Makoto is unpopular due to being seen as an Academic Alpha Bitch, and it's implied she had a Friendless Background before becoming a member of the Phantom Thieves. While Yukiko is a Nightmare Fetishist who loves ghost stories, Makoto is terrified of ghosts, as shown when the team visits Futaba's house for the first time. And finally, Yukiko is a Lady of War who uses paper fans and specifies in Magic, while Makoto has a rough-and-tumble combat style involving Good Old Fisticuffs and is a Jack of All Stats.
  • Tenuous connection and unclear what traits Yukiko's supposed to highlight in Makoto. Do you really think that their "connection" is really supposed to be there to highlight things like a fear of ghosts?
• To Tohru Adachi. Both have a similar school life in where they were encouraged to focus their time on studying, leaving them no time to make any friends. Upon growing up, they begin wonder what was the point of working hard since they would be forced into a competitive society. However, their decisions they make for their future are drastically different. While Adachi ultimately became unmotivated to put in any effort to work and lives irresponsibly, Makoto becomes resolute and responsible in deciding what to do for her future. They also have drastically different motivations to join the police force. Adachi claims he joined simply so he could legally carry a gun, whereas Makoto aspires to join the police to follow in her late father's footsteps and for a genuine desire for justice. While both of them end up making friends, Makoto is far more accepting of the bonds that she made as opposed to Adachi who ultimately tries to reject those bonds.
  • Way, way, wayy too tenuous a connection. Their roles are too far removed from each other to come close to applying.
• To Tatsuya Suou. Both are Badass Bikers with an older sibling and their fathers in law enforcement and both have Nuclear affinity. However, while Tatsuya rebukes every single one of Katsuya's attempts to reach out to him and also hates his father, here Makoto looks up to her father and she is the one who tries to reach out to Sae. Additionally, Tatsuya is a deliquent while Makoto is a model student.
  • Persona 2 is way to distant a property to possibly qualify a character as a foil.
• Futaba to Naoto Shirogane. Both ended up serving as The Smart Girl of their respective teams while being very short. They also are very shy individuals though Naoto tends to hide her Shrinking Violet tendencies while Futaba suffers anxiety around others and she doesn't really hide her shyness. In addition to that, while Futaba tends to act a bit childish and bubbly, Naoto hates being seen as a child thus she acts more serious. Also, while Naoto has a huge bust size, Futaba has the smallest bust size out of the Phantom Thieves. Their dungeons are also different as while Naoto's dungeon is more sci-fi and "futuristic", Futaba's dungeon is based on Ancient Egypt thus making it more "historic-looking". Finally, once they joined their respective teams, the plot of their respective games shifts from rescuing random people/stealing random people's hearts to figuring out the Big Bad of their games.
  • Interestingly, while I think the connection between the two is way too tenuous to count, what's damning is the fact that it's the contrasts that are also too insignificant to count. Do you really think that Futaba is intentionally made to contrast Naoto for the sake of bust size comparisons and dungeon aesthetics?
• She also serves as one to Rise Kujikawa, who preceded her as the navigator from mid-game onward. While Futaba is a shut-in who struggles with even the most basic social interaction and prefers to stay out of sight, Rise is an Idol Singer who comes to realize that she enjoys the limelight.
  • I could almost be convinced of this one, though of course cross-game foils are a hard sell. But both being navigators are a good start, but do you really think that Rise's character development is intentionally being invoked to contrast Futaba's?
• She is this to Nanako Dojima, who is also from Persona 4. Both have lost their mothers at a young age and have a strained relationship with their respective father figures. Nanako deals with her pain and loneliness by being a Stepford Smiler, and wishes to connect with her father Ryotaro, but he's too self-conscious about his role as her parental figure to try to bond with her. Futaba, on the other hand, became severely introverted and closed off following her mother's death, and initially kept her distance from Sojiro, her current guardian and adoptive father, despite his best efforts to help her. Similarly, Nanako actually has friends outside of the Investigation Team, sometimes hanging out with girls her own age, while Futaba only had one friend, and parted on bad terms after learning her secret.
  • I really, really like this comparison and it's clever and well thought-out, it's just not a foil. Nanako and Futaba's connection is just not there enough to count.

Will pick up with Haru in a bit. I haven't replayed the game past her, so these will become rougher, admittedly, and I would appreciate the help.