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Feb 26th 2019 at 12:47:27 PM •••

I added:

* BaitAndSwitch: His origin video opens up with the same \"orphaned by the omnic crisis and had to do what I had to do to survive\" backstory as several other characters...then his narration rubbishes the idea, establishing him as a Talon defector who feels tremendously guilty about holding onto that philosophy.

Along with an addition to I Did What I Had To Do (my addition is from Subverted onwards)

* IDidWhatIHadToDo: This was his mantra for survival in the aftermath of the Omnic Crisis. {{Subverted}} in that he ultimately decided he didn\'t \'\'have\'\' to do it (indeed, his origin story video, he completely rubbishes the idea after mentioning it).

~DRCEQ removed them with the reason \"There\'s no Bait And Switch or subversions here. He did what he needed to survive, THEN he joined Talon, THEN he left some time after getting a grip on his life.\"

The problem is, in his origins trailer he outright says \"At least, that was the lie I told myself. The truth is, I had choices, and I made them.\" To me that suggests that the idea of a \"I had to do this to survive\" backstory is being subverted/deconstructed and he didn\'t need to do it (or at the very least, doesn\'t actually buy that as an excuse).

I don\'t want to edit war over this, so what does everyone think?

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Feb 26th 2019 at 3:22:12 PM •••

Well, the way I see it is that he needed to tell himself that lie in order to survive up until the point that he joined Talon. After that, he didn\'t need to keep lying to himself, and he accepted the truth for what it was at a point when it was no longer necessary. I did make the change to the entry to mention that he believed that mantra up until he joined Talon. I don\'t think it\'s a Bait And Switch because he really did need to survive by his own terms as a child. A more straight example would be if he said all that survival mantra only to reveal that he was actually well off the entire time.

Feb 26th 2019 at 3:41:49 PM •••

But his origin story has him displaying the typical \"only the fittest survive\" attitude that several characters have, then has him say that\'s completely wrong and he was weak for believing it. If that\'s not a bait and switch, I don\'t know what is.

For what it\'s worth, according to Kaplin in a video that was just uploaded, he joined Talon after he\'d been a mercenary for some time and only signed up for the pay, so the IDWIHTD certainly doesn\'t apply there.

Feb 26th 2019 at 3:51:37 PM •••

Oh wow, someone just updated his entire profile with the story listed on Battle.net, which explains SO MUCH MORE than his origin story.

Upon reading all of that detail, you have a good point about the origin video. It\'s a huge influx of new detail so I think it\'s understandable that some debate over these tropes is going to happen.

Ummm. Yeah, go ahead and include whatever changes you want to make. I\'ll back out for now.

Feb 26th 2019 at 3:52:50 PM •••

I agree with Bisected 8 on this one. In my opinion, the trailer is constructed in a way to make him at least seem sympathetic to the idea of Social Darwinism, only for him to turn that around towards the end.

Not sure about the wording, but the narrative framework is definitely there in my opinion.

Feb 26th 2019 at 7:04:33 PM •••

Cool, I\'m readding Bait and Switch. I\'ll hold off on calling I Did What I Had to Do a subversion for now.

Sep 16th 2018 at 10:32:47 PM •••

Correct me if I\'m wrong, but I remember hearing somewhere from one of Overwatch\'s dev team that Moira held Mercy\'s skill in technology and medicine in high regard, and as such respected her - a respect that Mercy doesn\'t reciprocate. In that case, could a point for Villain Respect be added, and if so, should it be added in Moira\'s folder or Mercy\'s?

May 24th 2018 at 9:37:50 PM •••

Pretty sure the Kick the Dog entry in Moira's character folder isn't correct. I understood that Moira was actually curious about the cryogenical experience Mei's team when through, unaware of what happened. I didn't notice malice in her question.

I could be wrong though

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May 25th 2018 at 12:58:37 AM •••

It's still KTD by virtue of her being callous about it. Plus she mispronounced Mei's name, so it's probably meant to be taken as "Moira's a meanie".

May 25th 2018 at 4:04:02 AM •••

Yeah she seems to be unaware of Mei's history, and didn't mean to upset her. The entry should be changed to at least mention that much.

May 25th 2018 at 9:44:27 AM •••

I still disagree. Her overall tone is still pretty disrespectful (Malicious Misnaming for one) and it would take a brain pretzel to assume she doesn't know that Mei's colleagues are dead.

It's not as if the fact they've been missing for multiple decades would have gone unnoticed, even if Mei didn't report it for some reason. Moira's not going to have heard anything about theirs or Mei's work without knowing that.

May 25th 2018 at 10:22:39 AM •••

I’d call that Speculative Troping though. We’re never told she knows, even if it were likely.

May 25th 2018 at 10:57:44 AM •••

I don't think Malicious Misnaming applies. I think that's a voice direction mishap. (Like how in the past Reinhardt pronounced Brigitte's name wrong)

May 25th 2018 at 11:15:00 AM •••

^^ There's a point where something can be reasonably inferred without it being speculation.

For Moira not to be aware of the death of Mei's colleagues, she'd have to be completely unaware of anything about them, and thus couldn't possibly be interested in their research.

For comparrison's sake: It's not been explicitly stated that she knows Mei was stationed at Antarctica, but nobody would argue otherwise.

Edited by Bisected8
May 25th 2018 at 3:16:44 PM •••

There’s nothing to infer here. All of your points make an assumption that may make a good story with competently written characters, but those are stikl factors that have yet to be written into the story.

As you said, no one has stated she knows. And that’s the bottom line. Inferring anything else is speculation.

Edited by NubianSatyress
May 25th 2018 at 3:42:26 PM •••

My point is that it would be ridiculous to assume she doesn't know they're dead; the fact Mei's colleagues are dead, even if it isn't public knowledge, is blatantly obvious.

If anything, it would be speculative to assume Moira, respected member of the Oasis scientific community is just assuming every other member of Mei's team (whose work she's interested in) just hasn't put out a paper in a while since they went to Antarctica decades ago.

You might as well argue that it hasn't been confirmed that Gabriel Reyes is Reaper (all we have to go on are skins, which might not be canon, and he fact that he has the same powers in Retribution).

May 25th 2018 at 4:57:18 PM •••

Those two cases are not the same. The Reaper/Reyes connection has SEVERAL confirmations, including Ana flat out calling him Gabriel.

The speculation about Moira has zero confirmation and is based on nothing other that what, in your opinion, would make sense.

May 25th 2018 at 5:00:54 PM •••

Speculative or not, i don't think Kick the Dog is appropriate in this case.

Apr 2nd 2018 at 11:18:28 AM •••

Regarding Chainmail Bikini:

To quote the description of the trope itself: "An attempted downplay of this that still annoys well-informed audiences is the "boobplate", which is a chest piece that doesn't expose flesh but has individual breast cups. While it appears to less knowledgeable people to combine practicality with femininity, in real combat such a piece would be highly dangerous to the wearer, as it would transmit the impact of any blow directly to the breastbone, potentially fracturing it."

This particular Internal Sub Trope has nothing to do with fanservice. The basic premise is impractical armor, not the form-fittingness of the armor. I've long thought Boob Plate and Chainmail Bikini should be split, but haven't had the time nor the ability to do so.

Form-Fitting Wardrobe is a Super-Trope, of course, but it doesn't cover what Boob Plate specifically does.

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Apr 2nd 2018 at 11:42:45 AM •••

It's still to do with fanservice, because it's still purely aesthetic and draws attention to the breasts.

Just because it doesn't show skin doesn't change that.

Apr 2nd 2018 at 11:54:17 AM •••

I have to disagree. It's not inherently about "fanservice". It's about Secondary Sexual Characteristics; it's common to give women some sort of traits that signify that they are women. (See also, Furry Female Mane and Non-Mammal Mammaries.)

For example, after Captain Phasma was revealed for The Force Awakens, a bunch of people complained about the armor not having boobs to know that she's female, which got mocked by the creators. They weren't asking for it to be sexy—just that a female character be sufficiently feminized.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Apr 3rd 2018 at 6:59:39 AM •••

While that's true, there's still an element of fanservice to it. It's still possible to give armour purely aesthetic feminine curves without going so far as to include separate breast cups.

While the Captain Phasma example was mainly about gender neutral defaulting to "male" (thinking about it, do we have a trope for that), a lot of the complaints about Phasma's armour could be read as "she isn't sexy looking enough for my tastes".

I'd argue that it boils down to the fact that it's hard to separate the issue of women characters being expected to have a more feminine design from the issue of fanservice in the first place (so there's enough examples that are hard to separate into "gratuitously feminine looking armour" and "impractical armour that's clearly for fanservice" that it would be difficult to split the Chainmail Bikini trope).

Apr 3rd 2018 at 7:51:58 AM •••

But giving armor separate cups isn’t inherently fanservice, either. That sort of implication is an unfortunate side-effect of the belief that a woman’s breasts, with no other context, are inherently sexy. In this particular case, there is no such context. As we’ve established from the very reason the example was removed, nothing else about her armor invokes titillation. So there’s honestly no way we can look at Brigitte’s Legendary armor and say the cups are inherently there for sexualization unless we fall into the trap of Circular Reasoning.

The cups are sexy because cups are sexy because cups are sexy.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Apr 3rd 2018 at 9:44:25 AM •••

My point is more that both needlessly feminine looking and needlessly sexualised armour come from the same source, so it's impossible to tell.

Apr 3rd 2018 at 12:58:27 PM •••

But it's really not. The Internal Subtrope of Boob Plate is specifically about armor with unnecessary boobs on it. Nothing about that section of the trope indicates a need for sexualization.

We agree on the point that Secondary Sexual Characteristics are so ingrained that there tends to be a slippery slope between whether its meant to be sexual or not, but where we're disagreeing is that this isn't a nugget the trope was designed to unpack.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Mar 3rd 2018 at 7:53:16 PM •••

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Brigitte the oldest of Torb's children, not the youngest. The reflection comic certainly shows her as the oldest

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Mar 3rd 2018 at 8:01:08 PM •••

Yeah, oldest, but apparently the kids in the "Reflections" comic are Torb's GRAN Dkids, which means that SOMEONE's been busy.

Mar 3rd 2018 at 8:29:49 PM •••

She was actually confirmed to be the youngest child of Torb after Michael Chu clarified those other kids in reflections are his grandkids.

Yeah, common misconception.

Mar 1st 2018 at 5:23:52 PM •••

This might just be me being bad at recognizing faces so I won't edit it yet, but regarding Brigitte's You Don't Look Like You entry, and the cited comparison... is this really an example? I don't really see any difference between the two other than their expressions and the lighting.

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Mar 1st 2018 at 5:28:28 PM •••

Yeah, i don't think the troper who added that made a great case. Sure she used to look far more scrawny in older comics but that's more Art Evolution than anything.

Same troper added a Impossible Hourglass Figure that i personally think is a bit reaching.

Mar 1st 2018 at 5:39:51 PM •••

That last one was me actually, haha. I did label it a downplayed case since it's more a proportional thing, but I've been seeing a quite a few people finding her waist at least kind of odd-looking.

Mar 1st 2018 at 5:42:29 PM •••

I saw a thread on the official forums talking about how her waistline is a bit too small for someone wearing what is basically Reinhardt's armor.

The poster got flamed with claims of thin-shamming, the exact opposite of the Skinny Mei fiasco that happened during the Year of the Rooster skins.

Mar 1st 2018 at 6:23:03 PM •••

There's nothing "impossible" about her figure, is the thing. Her armor is designed to be wider at the hips and shoulders than at the waist. I have no idea if there's any reason for it other than aesthetics, but it has nothing to do with the body of the person inside the armor.

Mar 1st 2018 at 6:56:42 PM •••

Pharah also has a similar waistline design yet i don't think that trope is listed there.

Mar 1st 2018 at 7:01:01 PM •••

You know what, that's fair. So what to do about the You Don't Look Like You entry?

Mar 1st 2018 at 8:18:52 PM •••

Art Evolution. Just look at all the other comics where the characters aren't drawn exactly like their character models show in the game.

Mar 1st 2018 at 8:35:07 PM •••

The comics are more like Depending on the Artist. It makes sense that characters would look different between in-game models, animated film models, and drawn media. Mei is another great example of this.

Nov 24th 2017 at 1:28:08 PM •••

I'm a little curious about whether the mentions of Moira being more evil than say, Widowmaker, because she doesn't have a "sympathetic backstory" should be done away with or not. On one hand that is technically kinda true, but I think it's kinda misleading since I don't think she's necessarily "more" evil in that sense because of it.

I wouldn't say based on what we know of her that she's done anything majorly monstrous or have any really inherently bad motivations; she seems like a visionary similar to Doomfist, and while she is shady and is by default villainous since she works for Talon, but I think that's kinda it. Wouldn't really call her an Anti-Villain, but I wouldn't say she's "less sympathetic" or the like.

I dunno, anyone else feel that? Thought about removing those little bits, but I wanna ask what the take is before I do in case it's just me.

Edited by number9robotic Hide/Show Replies
Nov 24th 2017 at 1:57:29 PM •••

She considers herself Above Good and Evil and cares more about science. She doesn't care who she has to work with so long as it furthers her own investigation.

Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:05:18 PM •••

Moira and Androgyny

I want to get some consensus on this point. It seems to me that there is a deliberate element of androgyny in Moira's character design. The short hair, the slim build, the low voice, the shirt and tie she wears in her origin story video ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ETybQd4uRE&t=30s ) and in some of her sprays, the two skins that reference Bishōnen icon David Bowie/Ziggy Stardust...all these things point in the same direction. But we don't have a listed trope that addresses this aspect of her character. The closest we get is an incidental mention of androgyny in the No Celebrities Were Harmed description.

So what trope applies here? I tried adding the Crossdresser trope because of the aforementioned shirt-and-tie thing, but another troper removed it on the grounds that "A shirt and tie are hardly considered anything exclusive to the male gender for fashion anymore." On reflection, I'm sort of on their side: while I think a tie is still a long way from being a gender-neutral piece of clothing, it is just an accessory rather than a full outfit, so calling its use by a woman "crossdressing" may be a bit much.

Is there another trope that fits better? Bifauxnen, maybe? Or is there a trope I've overlooked? I'm open to suggestions.

Edited by FactoidCow Hide/Show Replies
Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:13:26 PM •••

Bifauxnen seems the obvious choice, here.

I agree that the androgyny seems deliberate. Overwatch's design devs are WAY too deliberate and careful with their design choices for something that obvious to be overlooked.

Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:56:36 PM •••

I agree with Bifauxnen. I also removed Crossdresser because of the sub-types of Crossdressing tropes that also exist.

Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:57:39 PM •••

I agree too, Bifauxnen is definitely the best fit, unless we have a more general androgyny trope.

Feb 13th 2017 at 10:22:38 PM •••

I think we have a misuse of trope here: Symmetra being an Upper-Class Twit.

She is of upper class, that's true. But the 'Twit' part absolutely does not fit her. The 'twit' implies stupidity and she's far from stupid. At least intellectually. And honestly, I don't get where this 'look down on the poor', which would've been pretty hypocritical of her considering she used to be on the 'poor' side and her story made it clear that she's trying to help them rise from poverty. An Upper-Class Twit would've preferred a rather hedonistic life and not even working or thinking hard. Symmetra does both of them willingly even if she now belonged to the Upper Class part. Just about the source of 'stupid' here is that she wrongly believed that Vishkar is doing the right thing, but I kind of feel like that these stemmed from how the viewers have more knowledge that Vishkar is either super shady or evil. We can't expect Symmetra to know them either, so to say that she's stupid because of believing in Vishkar, I think that's taking it too far with the bias or overblowing Vishkar's badness and letting it rub on Symmetra.

Also things like telling people that they're Unfit for Greatness or things like "Will put them in their place"... that all felt like common Trash Talk or Badass Boast within the game, same way as Genji calling those he killed "Aho"/"Stupid" or Hanzo saying "Never second best" in his voiceline (I can say the same about the ribbing with Torbjorn). It doesn't link with how she viewed the poor or those below her class (and that hasn't made it to the story canon). And if she just used that to kill others in-game... well it is pretty common, and just because she's not a Nice Girl doesn't mean she's a complete jerk to others. Also if they think she looks down on a poor because of her treatment to Lucio, I just feel it's wrong. She only accosts Lucio because he has done damage to Vishkar, just because she harasses Lucio doesn't mean she looks down on other poor people that are neutral to Vishkar (besides, despite his poor beginning, Lucio is now really rich as a DJ)

Now I'm not saying I deny that she has some very sharp diss. But to say that it makes her an Upper-Class Twit... I feel that it's wrong. Symmetra is a brilliant prodigal architect, the top at her area of expertise, it does gave her reasoning to be quite smug about it. Thankfully, there is a trope that could fit her arrogance while still sounding pretty neutral and accurate about it: Smug Super.

So bottom line, I don't believe that Symmetra really looks down on the poor, but she just wants to save them from that state because she suffered from it in the past. So, probably remove the entry Upper-Class Twit and then replace the content about her arrogance into Smug Super. (And also probably edit her entries that say she looks down on the poor. Because she doesn't, even if she does look down on Lucio for other reasons.)

Any objection?

Edited by ChrisX Hide/Show Replies
Feb 14th 2017 at 6:18:32 AM •••

Not sure what the right trope is (do we not have Upper Class Snob?), but Upper-Class Twit is massive misuse.

Feb 15th 2017 at 3:02:47 AM •••

Well it is broader, but 'Sheltered Aristocrat' does fit her situation further, the 'snobby and superior type that can be cruel' type. Symmetra isn't born into 'aristocracy', but she's raised without most contact from outer world within the very elitist Vishkar group, it was close enough for 'Aristocracy' in that setting. But I kinda thought it might be a misuse as well. So I chose not to. But tell me your thoughts on this idea anyway. I don't mind if Sheltered Aristocrat doesn't get a go.

Jan 18th 2017 at 10:40:50 PM •••

(deep breath)

Nubian, if you're listening to this, I am removing my PM block against you from before. I hope we can discuss in a better environment about this. This looks... better if I do not do this in public. I'm sorry about my outburst before, I got... emotional.

Edited by ChrisX
Jan 18th 2017 at 7:14:02 AM •••

About the Stealth Pun under Symmetra.

While "Indian Tech Support" seems clever and all, Stealth Pun requires that this be on purpose. And there's no indication that it is.

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Jan 18th 2017 at 7:17:28 AM •••

And if it is, given how PC (for better or for worse) Blizzard is being, there's no chance they'd come out and say it.

Jan 18th 2017 at 7:22:58 AM •••

Edit: Off-topic.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Jan 18th 2017 at 7:31:30 AM •••

Unnecessary, possibly. Incorrect, unlikely.

... ironically, I'm on the side of "for better" because I do love the game for its representation. I'm also just a realist, though.

Dec 28th 2016 at 1:55:56 PM •••

Similar to the McCree discussion over in Offense, I don't believe Zenyatta counts as a Mechanically Unusual Fighter for lacking an ability that the other supports have. Mechanically Unusual Fighters are distinguished by some extra gimmick or different control scheme, and Zenny doesn't really have that. He heals with a button press and requires line-of-sight to do so, same as Mercy, and his debuff and attack don't require significantly different mechanical skills than any other attacks in the game.

Ditto Ana; the lack of bonus headshot damage doesn't make her significantly different to play mechanically, it just makes her a less effective dedicated sniper because she's a hybrid that should be focusing on healing most of the time.

I'm not entirely sure about Symmetra either to be honest; yes she's different from the other Supports, but not from the playable roster as a whole. She's categorized as a Builder like Torbjorn, so you can certainly make the argument that she's more of a Defense than a Support, but that's not the same as having a vastly different control scheme. The only argument I can see in favor is that she's the only character who has two ults, but I don't think that's enough by itself. Edit: And come to think of it, she's not; D.Va also has two ults; one to call her mech when she's out of it and one to self-destruct it when she's in it.

I can see Lucio, since his speed boost is different from any other ability in the game in regards to how you have to time it and coordinate it with the rest of your team for best effect, but not the rest.

Edited by HighCrate Hide/Show Replies
Dec 28th 2016 at 3:55:10 PM •••

Considering that Symmetra plays nothing like the other Supports, that alone fits. I think that should stay. Granted this trope is primarily used for fighting games, but seeing as how she has completely different mechanics than the other Supports to the point where Blizzard had to adjust the warning just for her, it's safe to say her mechanics are unusual.

Also, it's not just having a different control scheme, it's the fact that she plays differently from everyone else. Look on the trope itself. Also, can D.Va manually choose which Ultimate she's using? Nope.

Edited by UltimateLazer
Dec 28th 2016 at 4:29:27 PM •••

She doesn't play differently than "everyone else." She plays differently than other supports. That's not a function of her, in and of herself, being unusual, it's a function of the fact that Overwatch's role categories are kinda messed up. Having two togglable ults is mildly different, yes, but not enough by itself.

Symmetra has the ability to build static defenses like Torbjorn, to project a shield like Reinhardt or D.Va (just one with less utility because she's not primarily a tank), and to deal lock-on damage like Winston (but single-target only). There's literally nothing in her kit that's completely unprecedented compared to the other heroes in the game.

Edited by HighCrate
Dec 28th 2016 at 4:49:06 PM •••

Regardless of how you feel about the roles, they're still roles and each serve a purpose. The fact that she plays differently from the others in her role makes her unusual. You admit that it's "kinda messed up" because of these inconsistencies — because she's unusual.

Dec 28th 2016 at 5:21:57 PM •••

See my entry in the other discussion. I agree with Crate overall, but have a compromise.

Dec 29th 2016 at 6:10:53 AM •••

Lazer, no. These characters are not mechanically unusual because they have no unique mechanics. You are adamantly trying to shoehorn this trope without understanding it. For it to apply they'd have to have a completely unique mechanic to them. Not a unique ability... pretty much every character in the game has unique abilities. You'd need someone who functions completely different from the rest of the cast.

Nov 3rd 2016 at 12:49:22 PM •••

Bringing this example here:

  • Skill Gate Character: Mercy is usually recommended to new players (especially if they've never played a First-Person Shooter before) because she's relatively simple to use and requires no aiming or precise timing to heal and buff. At higher levels, Mercy is usually discarded for Lucio, Ana or Zenyatta, because they can do a lot more...so long as the player has the skills for it.

The stated reason for its removal is that Mercy is "not intended to be worse than other characters" and that "Lucio is easier to play". Both of which are debatable.

Mercy is a low-utility healer who (outside of her ultimate) only has three components: healing, buffing, and occasionally shooting. She's not intended to be "worse" than other characters, but she's intended to a simple healer/buffer whose simplicity is offset by how FAST she can heal.

Unlike the other characters, Mercy has little defensive utility. Only a pistol and short burst of speed. She is, in fact, the only healer that begs her teammates to save her when she's in trouble.

This is opposed to every other healer in the game, who has other components to consider. Zenyatta must attack at the same time that he heals, and he requires more precise aim than most other characters. His most damaging attack requires charging and releasing. His discord requires that he know which enemy targets to prioritize so that his team eliminates the most significant threat.

Lucio players must know when to swap between speed and healing, as well as master wall riding to get out of danger, and know how to push back opponents (particularly off of cliffs). This is all generally done while attacking at the same time.

And Ana is the most difficult-to-use healer in the game. Every ability she has requires good aim, and her ultimate requires coordination with another teammate.

And finally, the biggest factor that I think proves that this was how she was intended is the "Difficult Stars" system which Blizzard incorporated to determine how difficult each character is to use. Mercy is the ONLY one-star support character in the game.

Edited by NubianSatyress Hide/Show Replies
Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:56:58 PM •••

Overwatch's character balance is very volatile. Sure, Mercy's in a bad place now, but she was also considered one of the best characters in the game when it first came out, and Blizzard is actively trying to fix her, hence why she gets buffed every patch while Ana and Lucio are getting nerfed. Eventually, things may swing around again and put her at the top. If she were intended to be a skill gate character, she would always be easy, but bad.

Lucio is easier than Mercy precisely because he has more to work with. His kit allows him to keep himself alive on his own far more effectively than hers does, while still not being particularly complex or hard to use, even for a newbie. The only thing that was difficult about him was wall riding, which is probably the reason he got 2 stars, but that has since been simplified and isn't even really needed at lower levels of play.

Nov 3rd 2016 at 3:01:08 PM •••

This has nothing to do with balance. Mercy is supposed to be beginner friendly and that's the reason she doesn't have a really complicated kit.

Personally, i find Lucio much more difficult than Mercy. And i mostly play Ana or Zenyatta if i have to heal. (I'm decent at them)

Nov 3rd 2016 at 3:20:57 PM •••

It does have to do with balance, because a skill gate character is not just easy to play, they have to be weaker than other characters as a tradeoff.

If we add it back now we'll just end up deleting it again when/if she gets buffed.

Nov 3rd 2016 at 5:49:52 PM •••

The Laconic of the trope says "A character who's easy to use for a newbie, but also easily defeated by a more experienced player"

How strong mercy is really depends. If she is indeed buffed, she will still be counterable by more experienced players, given that her kit can't really deal with a heavy ambush. They have to radically change her kit in order for that to not be the case

Nov 3rd 2016 at 8:14:06 PM •••

Yeah the point isn't that the character is "bad". Ryu is listed as a classic Skill Gate Character in every Street Fighter, and he was one of the best characters in the game in SFIV. Same with Cable in MVC 2. He was specifically supposed to be easy to use, and wound up being god tier.

Meta Game is what determines how good a character is, but that doesn't change the idea that a character is designed to be easy to use but also have abilities easy to counter.

If she's buffed to the point that she's used more than the other healers, it changes nothing except some wording.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Nov 4th 2016 at 9:23:40 AM •••

I'm going to propose a slight rewording:

  • Skill Gate Character: Mercy is usually recommended to new players (especially if they've never played a First-Person Shooter before) because she's relatively simple to use and requires no aiming or precise timing to heal and buff. At higher levels, players like to have other supports like Lucio, Ana or Zenyatta. Even if Mercy happens to be one of the strongest meta picks at the time, the other characters are still used alongside of her because they have much more utility...so long as the player has the skills for it.

Oct 29th 2016 at 2:05:01 PM •••

Does Ana fit Poisonous Person? I noticed that her biotic rifle kinda has a poisonous effect on the enemy targets it hits. (And also because the health sort of decreases overtime instead of instantly depleting)

Or maybe its another trope i may have overlooked

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Oct 29th 2016 at 2:17:43 PM •••

No. Poisonous Person specifically refers to someone whose biology incorporates toxic elements.

Oct 31st 2016 at 7:39:13 AM •••

Could be Master Poisoner, though. I don't know the details.

Oct 31st 2016 at 7:57:31 AM •••

The problem overall is that Ana is not a "poisoner". The technology of her weapons is Mercy's technology, reverse-engineered by Torbjorn to be offensive instead of medical. Ana just uses it.

Oct 31st 2016 at 9:48:12 AM •••

Both Poisoned Weapons and Abnormal Ammo fit, as does Universal Poison (so universal that it affects robots, D.Va's mech suit, etc.)

Oct 11th 2016 at 2:09:55 PM •••

So, about this entry that was just deleted in Mercy's profile:

  • Hypocrite: The majority of her pre-fight dialogue has her relishing the relative calm before the battle and languishing the violence that she's about to participate in. However, once the battle starts, she's very enthusiastic and approving of her teammates' actions, yelling things like "Great shot!" if she witnesses a kill, an delivering a Bond One-Liner or two if she gets a kill herself.

We do know that she hates violence and she would rather not participate in the conflict, that's why she enjoys the pre-match start. Nubian is kinda right when they mean that Mercy spouting one-liners after a kill is pretty weird for her. Would this be a case of Gameplay and Story Segregation?

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Oct 11th 2016 at 3:53:11 PM •••

I originally tried Master of the Mixed Message, but that seems to about romance only.

Oct 7th 2016 at 1:14:09 PM •••

Nubian Satyress deleted the following entry:

  • Fragile Speedster: Lucio is a great option for fast paced players who have tactics such as shooting while wall riding, hit and run strategies and boosting the speed of himself and his teammates but Lucio should rarely be used for direct attacks as he can be quickly killed by other players and is more vulnerable than others after being attacked by stun based attacks.

With the edit reason that thanks to his speed and regenerating health, Lucio is one of the hardest Supports to kill.

I agree that the entry is phrased inaccurately; Lucio IS one of the harder supports to kill, but that's because of his speed. It's hard to concentrate enough firepower on him for long enough to take him down, but he's got the second-lowest health in the game after Tracer and there are a lot of things that can one-shot him with a lucky hit. I'd say he still counts as a Fragile Speedster. I'd rephrase the entry something like this:

  • Fragile Speedster: Lucio is one of the quickest characters in the game, surviving by zipping around and making it hard for an opponent to draw a bead on him. All it takes is one lucky Reinhardt charge, a well-aimed enemy ult, or a couple stray rockets or grenades, though, and he goes down for the count.

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Oct 7th 2016 at 1:27:55 PM •••

I agree. Lucio's health is equivalent to that of a Genji, and i'm pretty sure he also qualifies as a Fragile Speedster.

Also, why is he listed as a Quirky Bard? Does he qualify for that?

Oct 7th 2016 at 1:44:24 PM •••

No, that's just a ridiculously broken trope so it's shoehorned by someone who doesn't actually read tropes they add.

Edited by Larkmarn
Oct 7th 2016 at 1:50:30 PM •••

Lucio having "the second-lowest Health after Tracer" (and unsuited D Va) is loaded language, because if that's the case, then 13 members of a cast of 22 have "the second-lowest health".

Saying Lucio is a "Fragile Speedster" goes against the spirit of the trope. To me, there's one part of the description that is key here: "Still, being fast has its downsides — what you gain in mobility, you lose in durability."

Lucio doesn't lose anything in durability. His health is the same as the majority of the cast, and he isn't fragile, because unlike most other characters with the same health value, he constantly regenerates his health when his Crossfade is set to healing. Lucio is not only hard to kill because he's fast, but he's hard to kill because he constantly gets his health back.

TL;DR: Lucio isn't fast and weak. He's just fast and average.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Oct 7th 2016 at 2:13:51 PM •••

Almost everyone with equal or less health has some kind of self-heal or defensive ability. Genji can block shots, Tracer can self-heal, Soldier can self-heal, Mercy regenerates, Zenyatta and Symmetra have regenerating shields. Lucio's on a par with any of them in terms of squishiness; his one survivability advantage over any of them is his mobility.

Two Reinhardt smacks and he's down unless he's at full health. One Rein charge, down. Winston, who doesn't have to aim much, can burst him down with regularity. Two Widow shots will do it. He has maybe a 50/50 chance of surviving a Roadhog hook, depending on if his alt-fire is on cooldown.

He's a squishy.

Edited by HighCrate
Oct 7th 2016 at 2:19:40 PM •••

That argument means that Soldier:76 is more squishy than Lucio, since Lucio's self-healing is passive and boosted every 12 seconds. Soldier's self-healing ONLY happens when his Biotic Field isn't on cooldown. Soldier also has a permanent dash ability, which makes him faster than your average character.

Going by what you're saying, he's more of a Fragile Speedster than Lucio, and I would even say that's a stretch.

There's also Junkrat, McCree, Pharah, and Widowmaker, who lack ANY defensive or self-healing abilities whatsoever. Even characters with regenerating shields/health ONLY regenerate when they haven't taken damage for a few seconds, meaning they actually aren't any more durable during a battle. Lucio regenerates while the damage is happening, meaning you are constantly trying to outpace his healing factor.

And I'm even against arguing that Genji's Deflect somehow makes him more durable. It doesn't. It doesn't work against a huge number of attacks, and only works if he's facing the opponent.

This feels like a massive shoehorning to me.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Oct 7th 2016 at 2:44:25 PM •••

Right. Soldier: 76 is marginally more squishy than Lucio. He's also not as fast— his Sprint makes him faster than average, but still noticeably slower than the game's real speedsters like Luci and Tracer, and even Genji over short distances— so he's not a Fragile Speedster.

Edited by HighCrate
Oct 7th 2016 at 2:49:41 PM •••

Soldier's speed is unique. He can outdistance Lucio over time (and if Lucio is on his team, trying to catch up to Soldier just makes Soldier outrun him faster). Genji may be faster in a burst thanks to is Quick Slash, but Soldier outruns him over distance.

I still wouldn't call any of these characters squishy, except Tracer, who was specifically given less health for balancing reasons.

Aug 25th 2016 at 10:11:11 AM •••

I don't want to be flagged for arguing with the editing so I'll place this here.

We had originally set Mercy's quote to her intro quote, "I'll be watching over you." In keeping with the theme of everyone else's quotes. Yet someone keeps changing it to the quote of her ultimate, "Heroes never die."

I understand this is petty to bring up, but call it mild OCD. I was going to change it to match everyone else, is anyone going to object?

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Aug 25th 2016 at 10:51:56 AM •••

Maybe because the troper added her quote from the Overwatch page where her bio can be seen. There it says "Heroes Never Die" as well.

Though i agree that her intro quote is better IMO. Ana also has the same issue of having her bio quote

Aug 25th 2016 at 11:00:00 AM •••

If there's no objection, I can correct that.

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