During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Showtime!
I've read Irredeemable and Tony's regret is framed primary as regretting that people don't love him anymore. Keep him
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
But even then, Age pointed out that the Plutonian has a nasty moral agency issue.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Handsome Head of Hyperion
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Tony is upset people do not love him, yes, but the regret he shows for his crimes and that his parents treat him like a "mistake" are too sympathetic to be chalked up to just more of his Attention Whore status. He is crying, screaming "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm not a mistake!", and his parents outright say "We have no doubt you regret many of the actions that lead you to this moment, but epiphany is not absolution."
Tony is perfectly fine with dropping every evil thing and going somewhere he can "belong, be happy" with his parents, and only goes back to being evil when said parents reject him.
Even beyond the obvious moral agency issues with the nature of his creation, I do not believe at all that his regret is "only" for people not adoring him.
Showtime!
The thing is that, he's also willing to evade responsibility, which to me indicates a lack of genuine regret
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Wouldn't the fact he was a Hero for years before having a Face–Heel Turn show that he has Agency?
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lizzid people!
I'm just going to wait for more info before I make a decision myself.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
@ Kylotrope Aku from Samurai Jack is perfectly capable of pretending to be a good guy, even though he's Made of Evil. Just being good, for a while, for attention, while you're already mentally unstable since birth and ready to lose it at any moment doesn't change the fact that there was a big moral agency issue. In fact, it's pretty much praiseworthy that the guy didn't snap earlier.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Handsome Head of Hyperion
@Kylo: No, because the only reason he even became a hero was because of his inner drive (caused by his mentally unwell "mother") to be loved and adored. He didn't truly care about saving people, his mental handicap just made him desire to have adoration and love for his heroic actions, but this does not change the fact that he has an ingrained mental problem created from his mother that revolves around an intense desire to be loved and redeemed.
Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Nov 29th 2019 at 3:50:03 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Showtime!
The Plutonian's parents also say he could have grown beyond the facts of his creation
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Handsome Head of Hyperion
His parents outright admit that they were "careless" with his creation and his anger at them and outrage that his mental capacity was tampered with since birth is completely justified, they admit that he feels remorse for his actions, and he tries to pull an Ascended to a Higher Plane of Existence with them where they can be a "family." It is made glaringly obvious that Tony has a deep-seated desire to be loved and have a family, he even admits that he by all accounts that the deaths of his favorite foster parents only further drove him into isolation and on his path of destruction. He even takes the name "Plutonian" in honor of said foster parents.
He admits his crimes, he accepts what he's done by the end, he reveals that he desperately wants his true parents to love him, and though his planned "redemption" is portrayed as selfish, nothing is ever offered up to explain that 1. his mind was handicapped from the start and 2. he had a Heel Realization and was willing to stay with his true parents and be a family until they abandoned him.
Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Nov 29th 2019 at 4:29:36 AM
We did argue these exact points before. I don't see Tony going anywhere.
For all this, Tony is given agency, and more than that, his attempts at redemption aren't genuine. What he wants is adulation, and satisfaction. That's the reason for his final fate.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I'm gonna lean keep, mainly cause the whole point of Tonies Charachter seems to be he's given Excuse after Excuse after Excuse, only for the comic to Remind us it was still his choice to become a monster. This just seems to be another example of that.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Handsome Head of Hyperion
You say he's given agency, but where is the proof of that? His parents, himself, and Qubit all admit that his mind was compromised by his origins, there is zero attempt to refute or correct this. Just because he shows the capacity to hold back his inner rage and urges for a time to be a hero does not equal agency.
It isn't said to be an excuse for his actions, but it does excuse his mental state and his degradation into insanity.
When he finally meets his parents and comes to understand himself, he says, quote, "(You've) given me answers to questions I didn't even realize I had. Answers that are taking away the rage of confusion. Look at me, I really am your child. I am a part of you. And now we're together. I belong. With you. Wherever you're going, take me where I can be happy." There is zero proof this is not a legitimate Heel Realization and attempt to start over. Even if Tony doesn't deserve to avoid punishment, that doesn't mean he can't also be trying to truly be with his parents.
Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Nov 29th 2019 at 4:38:01 AM
Because that is constantly shown to be willing on Tony's end. He frequently goes out of his way to be considerably sadistic, cruel and his downfall is brought about by the realization Samsara can't see him as a hero anymore, and as his parents point out, Tony has grown beyond what was intended to the point they hold him responsible for what has occurred and what he's done.
We see these things from Tony's own POV. And you're missing the key words there: "Where I can be happy." It's the same song and dance from Tony every day: his craving for adulation, recognition, worship, the back pats and so forth. This is a recurring cycle to Tony: he finds something else to crave and want, and then when it ceases to be what he desires, he freaks and lashes out at it
Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 29th 2019 at 4:39:59 AM
Handsome Head of Hyperion
I do not concede that Tony has full agency; his parents never once say he's grown beyond what the woman did to his mental state and say that he is completely justified in being upset with them for "letting" it happen to him.
But even should one ignore all of the glaring agency and potential Heel Realization moments, there is a very obvious sympathetic element to Tony's character, as his parents state that he feels regret for his acts, Qubit admits that he was handicapped and that his "essence" deserves a second chance (with the implication even being that if Tony had ended up somewhere besides that insane woman he could have ended up a decent person), to say that Tony is not given any sort of genuine sympathy by both the narrative and the characters is really, really stretching when he's afforded so many moments of clarity and somberness.
We'll agree to disagree on the former, but the latter? He goes back on all of them. There is not a single epiphany he doesn't manage to ignore or spit on.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
After reading both sides of the argument I vote to keep Tony. I'm convinced he has agency and all his potential redeeming qualities are false or destroyed.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 29th 2019 at 7:01:01 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Calloway, Grossman and keeping Tony
I’ve read Irredeemable a few times and I think ultimately the work deconstructs the idea that anything impaired Tony it gave him such a shit deal in life he can get any slack for it. Ultimately, he’s a keeper.
So, Four Brothers came to my mind recently and I hadn't watched the film in years, give or take seven years, but I seem to recall Victor Sweet, the Big Bad, and Fowler were quite evil in the movie. I am also unsure if John Singleton has a CM to his credit, nor Chiwetel Ejiofor, who plays Sweet in the movie, or Josh Charles.
If its gets okay, should I make EP for them or one of them, depending on the characters?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I don't know anything about the movie, but Chiwetel Ejiofor has Scar from the Lion King remake.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 29th 2019 at 7:17:29 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
TBH, I don't think Sweet is bad enough from memory.
Hmm, with that info, I'd not be opposed to cut, but I wanna hear more.
We'd need a new image, but there are PLENTY to choose from; comics are quite easy:
- The Polymath
◊ from Absolution: Rubicon
- The Lich
from Adventure Time.
- Madder Red
◊ from Bedlam
- Emperor Basam Damdu
◊ from Blake and Mortimer: "The Secret Of The Swordfish".
- Decker Marce
◊ from Burning Fields.
- "The Collector
◊" from Chew.
- Lacey from Cinder and Ashe: 1
◊, 2
◊
- Wick from Clive Barker's Next Testament: 1
◊, 2
◊
- David "Monty" Montgomery from Death Sentence: 1
, 2
- Wolfsangel
from The End League.
- Chaos
◊ from E.V.I.L. Heroes.
- The Little Match Girl
from Gore.
- "Sweet" Joe Petunia
◊ from The Iron Saint.
- Sagos
◊ from Lady Death (Avatar Press).
- "The Master
◊" from Nailbiter.
- Jody
from Preacher.
- Voon
from Rat Queens.
- Lord Golgotha
(as a human) from Reborn.
- Kevin
◊ from Sin City.
- Cyanure
◊ from Spirou & Fantasio.
- Zantafio
◊ from Spirou & Fantasio.
- Radu from Subspecies 1991 comic: 1
◊, 2
◊.
- Markus "Siegfried" Jung
from Über.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts